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LGW
n00b
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:24 pm Post subject: GRUB st*nks... well there *are* problems, at least... |
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This is something like a dissappointed breakout. I do not know where to put it else, so I put it here. I'm using gentoo for a while now (some desktops, mobile, video/TV-device,...), and I really like it, more than any other distribution I tried.
But I really don't like GRUB. I could point out systems I like better, but I won't - anyone has his own likings. But I point out what I don't like on GRUB:
1. configuration. why do I have to type silly things into a command interface instead of just storing it in the (anyway needed) config file?
2. - and this is may main dissapointment, since I took one of my harddisks from one machine to another - why do we have relational device IDs? I mean, we have a great directory structure under *nix, mounts, it's possible to rip harddisks out of the system and put otherones anywhere we want, and all we need to do is change the fstab. Try this on windows. But why does GRUB does not support this, instead, handling harddrives the silly, microsoft-like way? What is about hotplugging harddisks and other future enhancements that might come someday?
2. just stinks. not your fault of course, but are'nt there any other good loaders?
btw, is it possible to use another loader supported by gentoo, like, emerging lilo and use it? if it is, it might be a could idea to put that in the docs so SuSE-users what have an easier start...
just wanted to mention this, so maybe someone could think about it or so. And I'd like to hear other opinions about this, maybe I'm just stupid and don't see the positive sites of the GRUB right now 
keep on, gentoo rocks! |
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Esben
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 244
Location: Copenhagen/Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:54 pm Post subject: I just emerged Lilo first time around.... |
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when the install instructions got to the "install grub" part, I simply emerged lilo (emerge lilo), then set it up according to "man lilo". Worked flawlessly. I still miss some instructions how to setup a boot manager with some cool graphics... the boot menu is BOORING.
P.S: I use GRUB now. It doesn't require you to "install" new kernels, which I always forgot, leaving my system unbootable 
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regards, Esben
True trade is honest, but not merciful. Politics is dishonest, no matter how merciful... and war is neither honest nor merciful.... therefore, choose trade above politics, but politics above war. |
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LGW
n00b
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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lilo has graphical themes available, even animated. That's why I liked it... 
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/01/0434256.shtml
When I get my new PC I'll install lilo again I think. Or is there a grapical GRUB available? The animated tuxes rock... |
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noff
Guru
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 388
Location: College Park, Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: GRUB st*nks... well there *are* problems, at least... |
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| LGW wrote: | | 2. - and this is may main dissapointment, since I took one of my harddisks from one machine to another - why do we have relational device IDs? I mean, we have a great directory structure under *nix, mounts, it's possible to rip harddisks out of the system and put otherones anywhere we want, and all we need to do is change the fstab. Try this on windows. But why does GRUB does not support this, instead, handling harddrives the silly, microsoft-like way? What is about hotplugging harddisks and other future enhancements that might come someday? |
You kind of answered your own question, when you said you need to change your fstab. You need to tell the program where it is looking for stuff physically at some point. Since the boot loader is the first thing it seems to make sense.
Grub is apparently much more powerful than lilo. Lilo works great for most, but grub is supposed to be able to work in many situations lilo is limited in. Once I learned grub it really hasn't given me any troubles.
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What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance |
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Esben
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 244
Location: Copenhagen/Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| LGW wrote: | lilo has graphical themes available, even animated. That's why I liked it...
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/01/0434256.shtml
When I get my new PC I'll install lilo again I think. Or is there a grapical GRUB available? The animated tuxes rock... |
I tried to get this to work with gentoo, and gave up. You have to patch the sources; and the patch doesn't build on any of the (then) avaible versions of lilo in the portage tree. At least you had to last spring 
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regards, Esben
True trade is honest, but not merciful. Politics is dishonest, no matter how merciful... and war is neither honest nor merciful.... therefore, choose trade above politics, but politics above war. |
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LGW
n00b
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:17 am Post subject: Re: GRUB st*nks... well there *are* problems, at least... |
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| noff wrote: | | LGW wrote: | | 2. - and this is may main dissapointment, since I took one of my harddisks from one machine to another - why do we have relational device IDs? I mean, we have a great directory structure under *nix, mounts, it's possible to rip harddisks out of the system and put otherones anywhere we want, and all we need to do is change the fstab. Try this on windows. But why does GRUB does not support this, instead, handling harddrives the silly, microsoft-like way? What is about hotplugging harddisks and other future enhancements that might come someday? |
You kind of answered your own question, when you said you need to change your fstab. You need to tell the program where it is looking for stuff physically at some point. Since the boot loader is the first thing it seems to make sense.
Grub is apparently much more powerful than lilo. Lilo works great for most, but grub is supposed to be able to work in many situations lilo is limited in. Once I learned grub it really hasn't given me any troubles. |
Well, it's not really the prob to change things when things change.
But I had NOT to change my fstab because /dev/hdc was /dev/hdc. That never changed. But GRUB changed its counting because there was a /dev/hdb before (so my boot was on hd(3,0) before, is now on hd(2,0))
I simply don't understand why they don't stick to the known device names... |
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7730
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Moving to Gentoo Chat.
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"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." -- Calvin |
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BigRedDot
n00b
Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 67
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1. configuration. why do I have to type silly things into a command interface instead of just storing it in the (anyway needed) config file? |
Uh, what? /boot/grub/grub.conf I only use the command line in the event something goes awry, in which case it is a huge convenience.
Great point. Good argument. Compelling.
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Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6000 people just like you. |
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oniq
Guru
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Posts: 597
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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You have two number 2s...
If you don't like Grub, use LILO, if you don't like either, use Windows. GRUB has been the easiest for me to setup, and the configuration file /boot/grub/menu.lst (/boot/grub/grub.conf) is easy to setup. As another person said, I don't see your arguments as being valid at all.
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open like a child's mind. |
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7730
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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GRUB is a wonderfull piece of software, provided that you read the manual.
You can only understand its beauty after you misconfigured it and was able to boot using the command line or by editing the boot command.
[edit] try "info grub"
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"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." -- Calvin
Last edited by pilla on Sun Jan 12, 2003 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ari Rahikkala
Guru
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 370
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bloody Bastard wrote: | GRUB is a wonderfull piece of software, provided that you read the manual.
You can only understand its beauty after you misconfigured it and was able to boot using the command line or by editing the boot command. |
Amen, brother. That's what happened to me when I installed grub the first time - I had stupidly told it that the kernel is in /boot although /boot was a separate partition, meaning that it couldn't find anything to load. All I needed to do to get the machine to start up was invoking the command line, finding the "load" (or was it "kernel"?) command and giving it the right filename.
While I do agree with LGW on that the different device name format is confusing, it's definitely less confusing than having a bootloader that tries to mimic the Linux kernel in naming devices but inevitably breaks in some obscure cases.
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<laurentius> gentoo linux?
<ari> Yesh.
<laurentius> they look horny |
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really
Guru
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 430
Location: nowhere
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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can anyone answer _why_ grub uses diffrenet device names?
or give me a direction?
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NoManNoProblem
Get lost before you get shot. |
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7730
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it is because they thought it was the best solution. In this way, there is no difference between a scsi and a ide disk. And remember that grub is used for different operating systems.
I don't see the problem here, it is like asking why vi uses that set of commands and emacs another one. "info grub" has a page just for the naming convention.
| antonik wrote: | can anyone answer _why_ grub uses diffrenet device names?
or give me a direction? |
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"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." -- Calvin |
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really
Guru
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 430
Location: nowhere
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Bloody Bastard wrote: | Maybe it is because they thought it was the best solution. In this way, there is no difference between a scsi and a ide disk. And remember that grub is used for different operating systems.
I don't see the problem here, it is like asking why vi uses that set of commands and emacs another one. "info grub" has a page just for the naming convention.
| antonik wrote: | can anyone answer _why_ grub uses diffrenet device names?
or give me a direction? |
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thank you 
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NoManNoProblem
Get lost before you get shot. |
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shm
Advocate
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 2380
Location: Atlanta, Universe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| it uses different names because unlike lilo, grub is not really that tied to Linux. |
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