Does Gentoo Linux need an install program?

drakonite · l33t Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 768 Location: Lincoln, NE

Do you think gentoo linux would benifit very much from an install program?

I've started spending some of my free time working on a program to automate the install process. At the moment its more or less going to be some fancy bash scripting to guide the user through the install process (tell them what's going on) and to run the programs that need to be ran for them. I don't know if I'll ever get enough work done on it to make it workable and worthwild, but if there is enough demand for it I hope to get it done.
If I do get it working, then I hope to eventually use Ncurses to make a little prettier and more menu driven process... And who knows, maybe eventually a GUI using svgalib or something But all of that is way too far in the future...

I do have a couple things I'll have to ask people here, but not too much...

Is the Gentoo Linux USE flag editor (ufed) on the livecd? Any plans to put it on there? Completly ignoring my project, I think ufed would be a very good thing to add to the livecd.

Can you use dynamic arrays with bash scripting? Well... I guess if you can use any arrays in bash they are probably close enough to dynamic for my purposes... And I'm fairly certain you can do arrays.. Can someone give me a quick example? (Yes, I DO know enough bash scripting to do this.. I just never paid attention to arrays with bash and can't find my link to the bash guide I was using...)

Would it be acceptable to just start up cfdisk for the user to partition the drive, or should I try to make some sort of partitioning wizard? (If I made the wizard it would use fdisk for reading / writting the partition table)

Are there any steps/options that should be included in the process, or any that should be left out?

*edit* Due to some weirdness with the poll when I edited my post I had to delete it and start it over... Oh well... Nobody had found it yet anyways

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Loke^ · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:17 am Post subject:

Good idea, I had the same idea a year ago, when i was making my own distro, and i got it working with some small programs, like nano and irssi.
The (bash-script) downloaded the sources from a server i specified, and unpacked/compiled them.
But i gave up after a day or so, with both the distro (came out ok thou) and the script

As long as you make it very powerful its a good idea.
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taskara · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:05 pm Post subject:

would gentoo benefit ? probably not

would new and current users benefit? without a doubt

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drakonite · l33t Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 768 Location: Lincoln, NE

Gentoo benefit == Gentoo is better because it has an install program...

So I guess the question should have been... Would it make gentoo better if it had an install program...

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dwbullok · n00b Joined: 27 Jan 2003 Posts: 3 Location: Urbana, IL USA

Sven Vermeulen · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:32 pm Post subject:

One of the advantages of not having an install script is that the users get to know Portage from the beginning, and because of the well-written Installation Guide they know how they can administer it using emerge. If you give the users an installationprocess, they don't know (in the beginning) how to work with Portage/emerge, and since they already have a working system, they tend to try things on their own, f****ing up things and then asking questions. That makes it a little more difficult to debug their questions. Not that I am against users that try before ask, this is just an observation (been there, done that).

compu-tom · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:53 pm Post subject:

I agree that the learning effect is great w/o an install tool.

But having no such tool requires one to have a printed copy of the installation manual laying on the table (lack of internet access and available browsers at this stage of installation).

Most of the installation guide are decisions that have to be made by the installer. It also shows you the installation order of components. The resulting commands then aren't that difficult.

It therefor would be great to have at least an on-screen guide of this kind (for example):

rac · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:06 pm Post subject:

Arthur Vandelay · n00b Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 55

NO!!!!

The act of reading through the install step by step educates newbies and gives them thier first positive unix sysadmin experience. Cmon all you gurus out there, remember how you felt when you finally got X to run after struggling through the config process? Or your first kernel compile?

Automating all that is just going to create more lazy sysadmins and more traffic on these forums from users who are not willing to make an effort to learn.

We'd be just like all the other distros trying to be all things to all users.

Sure we could streamline the install a little, but anything more would be a huge mistake.

I can see the Gentoo guys are starting to buckle under the pressure they are getting from redhat and mandrake defectors whining "I want to install gentoo but it's just too hard!" Don't give in to them. The very fact we are getting alot of interest from binary distro users should tell you something about what we are doing right.

idl · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject:

this poll seems to rather biased, 3 options for yes and only 1 for no? lol I want a "If you dare touch that install process i'll extend my right arm and bitch slap you upside the head!"

lghman · Guru Joined: 29 Nov 2002 Posts: 548 Location: Florida

I agree completely with Auther.

I for one learned alot building all 3 of my gentoo systems from stage 1 tarballs. I think that is part of gentoo, thats what makes it gentoo. Anyway I dont think gentoo needs an autoinstall. More stuff == Bloatware (Deadrat, Mandrake). Besides you want to download 3 Gentoo Cd's with Autoinstallers and Pre-compiled binaries, if i wanted that I would use Redhat or Mandrake.
Just my 2 cents. lol

--sonik

darktux · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject:

What about having the choice between both of the processes :!:

After all, aren't we using the OS of choices/alternatives?
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pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20485

Is this a discussion about a current project, or simply if an installer should exist? We have several "should one exist" threads, and they usually aren't productive.

Let's not spiral into a yes/no thread.
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eryvile · Apprentice Joined: 14 Aug 2002 Posts: 234 Location: europe

EvvL · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:22 pm Post subject:

I'd have to agree that Gentoo needs both options. It'd help more newbies install it, not like they don't have to learn emerge anyway.

Thats the only area were Debian currently has the upper hand IMHO. Their installer may be crap but at least they have a installer.

I was also working on a quick installer based made in bash using dialog for awhile but I stopped that to work on a script to clear out all the old files out of the distfiles that weren't used to emerge all the packages on the current system.
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noff · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:13 am Post subject:

I strongly disagree with having an installer. Installing Gentoo is a lot of trial by fire, the directions are all there you just need to follow them. Through a large educated userbase is created making support easier and allowing more advanced functions rather than dumbing things down. If you don't figure things out you won't learn to take advantage of gentoo and you might as well be running redhat.

Gentoo should work more towards making things more powerful and customizable than easier for newbies. Lots of newbies install it every week, if they succeed they become part of the community, if they don't they go back to Mandrake. I'm fine with that.
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taskara · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:28 am Post subject:

yeah that's a good point, noff.

I'm sure lots of gentooers feel the same way.

Personally I found learning to install gentoo fun and rewarding. I learned more in a week playing with gentoo than I have in a year with redhat and mandrake.

So I think the current method of installing gentoo is a valuable blessing in disguise.

Still I can see where an installer could be useful. For people who have to install gentoo on 10 machines.. or if you want to help non-linuxy people get into gentoo. Personally I don't need the install guide, I know it all off by heart, but it would be nice to run X number of scripts which execute the entire process..

Would it really hurt to have it tho ?

Does it hurt currently NOT having it ?

Tho it IS nice to have a distribution geared more towards linux g33ks who have skillz, not just newbies.

I like to think of the Gentoo install process as a sort of initiation into the gentoo community, and one I'm proud to be a part of

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drakonite · l33t Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 768 Location: Lincoln, NE

taskara · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:31 am Post subject:

actually I've just converted a friend from windows straight to gentoo.. and he and I have been thinking exactly the same thing for the last month..

I think it WOULD be a valuable thing, and the way you've clarified it just now, is almost exactly the way we were thinking of doing it!

So I am all for it.. I think that those who don't want to use it, don't have to.. and those that do want to.. can

what do you program in?

good luck!
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Kororaa install method - have Gentoo up and running quickly and easily, fully automated with an installer!

drakonite · l33t Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 768 Location: Lincoln, NE

NicholasDWolfwood · Apprentice Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 235

Like others have said, if people are too dumb to run simple commands like "mkdir /mnt/gentoo/boot", they deserve to go back to Redhat or Mandrake. I've converted from a [still-using] Windows user to a Gentoo user. I was shocked at first at how much you have to do, but it's pretty easy. If something went wrong, I asked my IM friend who got me into Gentoo or I came here and asked.

taskara · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:09 am Post subject:

See I don't like that attitude.

I think Gentoo can be for everyone, and everyone has different skill levels.

Why can't we make it a little easier for some people?
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steelrose · Apprentice Joined: 06 May 2002 Posts: 245 Location: Cyprus

in my opinion the best is to have an installer for new users and the usual method for advanced users.user must choose what to follow at boot
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S_aIN_t · Guru Joined: 11 May 2002 Posts: 488 Location: Ottawa

I voted no. But now i am thinking to myself.. there are people who would like to install Gentoo but they are afraid to do so as soon as they see the Install Guide.

Therefore, it would be a good idea to provide people with an installer. Maybe not as locked down as that of RH, or Mandrake. Something that would let you make all the choices for yourself, but would present them in a same order as the install guide. I think the final result would be something along the lines of an interactive Install Guide. I think everyone would be happied with something like that.

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yokem55 · Guru Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Posts: 360 Location: Oregon

One of the benefits that I see in the current install method is that it familiarizes people with using the command line and makes them comfortable with what is otherwise a dark place of voodoo magic. Also it introduces people to using a console based text editor..

However, I do think that a collection of tools that simplify the process and consolidates the amount of necessary user interaction for the install into a much briefer time period would be very helpful, especially when you want to install on a large number of systems.