amd64 - 32bit vs 64bit. Should I switch?

Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:03 am Post subject:

how much faster would a amd 64 3500 be than a 2400 xp then if running on a 64bit os running a 64 bit game?

the same goes for it running a 32 bit game on a 32 bit os

Im only talking rough figures here so i have an idea
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Gherald · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:27 am Post subject:

That depends.

Which games and which graphics card are we talking about?

LaNcom · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:40 am Post subject:

If you're running a 32bit OS, or 32bit software on a 64bit OS, you only get a slight (but still remarkable) gain in performance due to some 'common" improvements in the AMD64 design, like the on-die MC that keep the memory latency down, or the HT bus. So it's not much, but still faster compared to an AthlonXP or P4.

If you're running 64bit compiled software on a 64bit OS, you get the benefits already mentioned, plus some more AMD64-specifc optimizations, like twice the number of registers and such, adding another speed increase (usually).

If you're running 64bit _optimized_ software on a 64bit OS, you'll see an enormous additional speed inrease. as a 64bit CPU is at least 5x as fast as a 32bit CPU at processing 64bit values (about 7.5x, according to an old benchmark by Ace Hardware). But there's very little software using/ needing this right now. This will most likely change in the future...

mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

Yes, and the applications which do make use of the extra functions are usually server related ones as 64-bit CPUs in servers have been used for a while. So if you're going to be running a lot of services (apache, ftp, etc) then you will see a speed increase I'm sure.
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Akhouk · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject:

Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject:

If it helps i have a
Agp 6600 gt 128 amb 500mhz core 1050mhz ddr3 memory
via kt600
768 mb ddr 266 CL 6 (single channel)

If i upgrade i will get:

Amd 64 3500+
MSI K8T NEO2 FIR skt 939 (K8T800pro)
Corsair® 1024MB TwinX XMS 3200 CL 2 3 3
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mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

That new system would be very fast!

But consider the A8N-SLI mobo!
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Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject:

No, i have just bought a £160 ($310) AGP graphics card so SLI and pci express is out of the window im afraid. Plus they cost more and don't have much in the way of benifits besides not having to use a power connector.
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mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

Yeh, that's true.

Your upgrade path sounds good - if I were you I'd go for it.
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Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:32 pm Post subject:

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 64 bit 512k L2 Cache Retail inc.fan Skt 939 (3 yr.warr.) (CPUFX3500939)
£148.75

MSI K8T NEO2 FIR skt 939 1000FSB K8T800pro +7.1 ch.audio +SATA RAID +USB2 +F/Wire (up to DDR400) +Gigabit LAN (MOTMSIK8TNEO2FIR)
£68.95

Shipping Total Order Weight 2.90 kg
£4.95

Total Price Excluding VAT
£222.65

VAT @ 17.5%
£38.97

Total Price Including VAT
£261.62

My maximum budget is £300 and the memory is going to cost £140 so that will have to wait.

Will A dual channel motherboard (details above ^) be able to run ddr 266 single channel memory?
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mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

Yeh, dual channel just means you can put it in dual configuration if you want. Also you don't *have* to have a matching pair to run in dual DDR mode, it's just much better.
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Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject:

right so it should work no problems out of the box/with a bios tweak. Your site looks interesting linux4free that is when is that comming up? how will it work? will the shipping/cds cost anything or is it all as the title suggests free? if so how will it survive and not go under?
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mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

Yeh that box should work fine - don't know about BIOS updates, but that's easy and worth it anyway as mostly the CPU temperature reads wrong until a BIOS update!

Hehe, yeh thanks for asking about Linux4Free... well... it's to go with www.linuxboards.co.uk (which has noone going to it yet as I havn't really launced it). Linux4Free will be basically non-profit, so it's not really what the name suggests is it. I may change the name, who knows. I have almost got the site finished, I just need to test the paypal bit and create an order tracking page and tidy up some of the admin panel. If anyone wants to help with the site then give me a buzz by the way!
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Elim · Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject:

what needs to be done on your site?

Btw i sence a potential for misuse of your returns policy people buying a distro copying it and saying they dont like it and getting another one just a thought.
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mattjgalloway · l33t Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 761 Location: Coventry, UK

Yeh, I havn't actually implemented that returns policy - I want to do something similar but not sure how to work it. The thing is they can only return for a swap, not a refund (unless faulty of course), so even if they do copy it, I've still gained some cash and can resell the old CD anyway (as they'd have to be returned in good nick you see).

There's a little left to be done on the site but not too much. You can see the progress at:
http://www.linux4free.co.uk/dev/
The username is dev and password is linux4free. (Please don't order anything, you won't get it

and please don't sign up, yet

)
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Viza · n00b Joined: 14 Oct 2003 Posts: 18

I've been using an Intel CPU with an x86 setup for over a year and a half now. I just replaced the Intel CPU for a AMD Athlon64 3000+ and I am planning to re-install gentoo on the new amd64 system. This is my first experience with AMD Athlon64 processors and i'm pretty clueless as to how things should go. I can't decide whether to use x86 and have the massive software availability, or go with amd64 and get the performance the Athlon64 was designed for. This is a very difficult decision for me right now.

It is very hard to find out the current status of 32bit support on a amd64 system, if anyone can please update me on that. Are there certain precautions/steps/guidelines I should know about if I decide to install an amd64 system? I know the 2005.0 LiveCD was recently released, are there any changes that would be very useful to someone like me? If i go with an amd64 system, is it possible to use portage for 32bit apps? Are 32bit apps out of the question?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated, and I'm sorry if i'm repeating anything from previous threads.

Thanks in advance,
Viza

taskara · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:52 am Post subject:

Hi,

firstly, read this:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/technotes/index.xml

and secondly I am pretty sure just about everything works on amd64 these days.. even java.

and if something doesn't, then you can use a chrooted x86 environment anyway

I say go -march=amd64

-c
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magnesium · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:15 am Post subject:

Personally I don't get why someone would own an AMD64 processor only to run it in 32bit mode. Get you're money's worth and run it in 64bit mode. The beauty of AMD64 architecture is that you can run 32 bit apps in compatability mode while running a 64bit OS.

Best of both worlds I'd say. You get tomorrow today, and yesterday still works
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babo · Guru Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 477 Location: Ljubljana

I also think that on an x86 machine you put a x86 system and on a amd64 you install amd64 system. (except for windows of course

)
At least I have it like so and I don't miss anything on amd64. Sometimes I use firefox-bin couse of flash plugin, but I don't use my x86 machine for something that wouldn't work on amd64.

Birtz · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:10 am Post subject:

Yep, I agree. Go with the Gentoo-amd64. There were some glitches and workarounds needed for some of the 32-bit compatibility stuff, all nicely addressed in this forum, you shouldn't have much problems.

Cheers
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OddFox · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:12 am Post subject:

Noyan · Apprentice Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Posts: 212

amd64 without multilib....

wiktorw · n00b Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Lodz, Poland

From my point of view you should go and try amd64 arch. With the availability of 2005.0 Gentoo profile it's even easier than before. Why? Because this profile forces "multilib" setting - and it means "32-bit compatibility". In the previous version, ehrm, 2004.3 profile, multilib was optional, and it created some problems.

Now those problems do not exist. One simply needs to choose between "amd64/2005.0" and "amd64/2005.0/no-multilib" profiles. On the default "amd64/2005.0" everything goes smoothly: openoffice-bin (32-bit version) works, firefox-bin (32-bit) works, and so on. You just need to install 64-bit version of Java, if you need it (it's Sun's J2SE 1.5.0/amd64 for me). The number of applications which compile and run in 64-bit mode is increasing quickly. And if something is not working correctly, then believe me, Gentoo bugzilla and this forum are tremendously helpful.

Of course, if you want the "minimal amount of work and troubleshooting" approach (yeah, in Gentoo...

), maybe you should stick to the x86 arch. But I wouldn't recomend you to do so. I know it's tempting

. But I overcame this feeling, and just yesterday I've finished emerging a new Gentoo installation, based on amd64/2005.0 profile. It works very well, as far as I can tell - after this short amount of usage.
You just have to choose kernel wisely. For me it's the newest nitro-sources (mainly because I can use reiser4 filesystem - the quickest and the most quiet filesystem I've ever seen!). Other users use love-sources with great success. Of course, there are may other kernels too, like Gentoo provided gentoo-sources (which now maps to the 2.6.x kernels family).

Just to state it once again, if you are brave enough, do it and go for amd64 arch!
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aerogems · n00b Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 30

I'm going to take a somewhat different opinion.

I started out using the amd64 2004.3 profile, and found it not to be quite up to the x86 level of things. Particularly when it comes to things like MMX/SSE support. Very few apps have support for these instructions on the amd64 platform. Mplayer does, but that's about it that I found. I also found that Sun's 64-bit JREs used huge amounts of memory (over 200MB for 1.5.0_01 compared to less than 80MB for the 32-bit), they seemed far more sluggish (1.4 and 1.5), and even less stable. Some other binary only 32-bit apps seemed to be considerably more tempermental on amd64 compared to x86.

Now, there is always the chance that some of this is my fault. I'm just getting back into using Linux after a year or two away. It's also possible some of this stuff was fixed with the new 2005.0 profile. I didn't really stick around to try it. I just grabbed the x86 install CD and haven't really looked back. Overall, things seem much more responsive on the x86 side for me. So, take it for whatever it's worth to you. My impression is that there hasn't been as much effort spent tuning apps for the amd64 arch like there has for x86. If your needs are limited pretty much to things like web browsing and word processing, amd64 will probably work just fine. If, however, you like listening to music, watching videos, and that sort of thing, x86 might be a better option simply because of more widespread support for MMX/SSE/3DNow.