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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| suid77 wrote: | | Quote: | | Can't be a very important mission if you're rolling unnecessary updates onto it without testing on another box first. |
Thats not the point. Sure, you shouldn't update if you don't need to, but we should also be able to trust the integrity of ebuilds marked as stable. It seems like a big enough problem that it shouldn't have slipped through the cracks.
If we can't rely on stable packages being stable, you suggest that we do a forum search on every update the portage presents us with?? There just seems to be a lot [too much] of this sort of thing going on lately. |
No, I suggest you a) do a bugzilla search, and b) post a reply to every bug report you see on the forums asking the poster to file a proper bug. |
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suid77
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No, I suggest you a) do a bugzilla search, and b) post a reply to every bug report you see on the forums asking the poster to file a proper bug. |
I guess I [and many others] were giving Gentoo too much credit. Maybe there should be a new set of packages given the designation "stable" since you're saying these can't [and shouldn't be] be trusted as such.
I understand minor problems every now and again, even majors problems from time to time, but people rely on these systems for desktops and servers alike. From what you're saying the 'stable' designation is misleading. |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| suid77 wrote: | | Quote: | | No, I suggest you a) do a bugzilla search, and b) post a reply to every bug report you see on the forums asking the poster to file a proper bug. |
I guess I [and many others] were giving Gentoo too much credit. Maybe there should be a new set of packages given the designation "stable" since you're saying these can't [and shouldn't be] be trusted as such.
I understand minor problems every now and again, even majors problems from time to time, but people rely on these systems for desktops and servers alike. From what you're saying the 'stable' designation is misleading. |
The stable designation is accurate. It breaks down when we don't get proper bug reports filed. This is the same as with any other distribution. The difference being, most other distributions don't have a setup like our forums where users can easily report bugs to completely the wrong place. Developer testing is reasonable and will catch many bugs, but unless ~arch users do the right thing and report bugs (but *not* those ~arch users who run broken systems) the occasional thing will slip through.
Hint: bitching on the forums doesn't get you anywhere. All it does is reduce the number of developers who ever look in here at all. Thanks to certain incidents involving threads getting unlocked and users refusing to file proper bugs, there's pretty much no chance that any bugs reported to the forums will ever get seen. |
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Duncan Mac Leod
Guru
Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 317
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| suid77 wrote: | | There just seems to be a lot [too much] of this sort of thing going on lately. |
Yepp, it is so...
Remember the probs. with 'stable' gcc-3.3.5...
I don't understand why (important) packages (such as mysql and gcc) do not remain flagged ~x86 til they are tested more in-depth..? |
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absinthe
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 111
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| suid77 wrote: | | If we can't rely on stable packages being stable, you suggest that we do a forum search on every update the portage presents us with?? There just seems to be a lot [too much] of this sort of thing going on lately. |
Stable != bug-free. Every OS in existence has a stable version for packages but that does not mean it is free of bugs. It just means that for the known bugs and/or given test cases, it is stable.
Let's take this from another angle:
There are roughly 9000 packages in the tree, and approximately 300 developers (rounded up). That's a ratio of about 30 packages:1 developer, but in reality it doesn't work out that way since all packages impose different demands.
But for the sake of argument, even if we had a ratio of 5:1, that still does not preclude the likelihood of bugs, even in the event that our users are dutifully filing bug reports more than they are currently. It is software, which means it is inherently flawed in some way.
We are definitely working towards making the stable packages "just work", as any OS vendor does, but we can't fix things we don't know about... and there's no way for us to test software in every possible way.
So, in short, we encourage folks to file bug reports and help improve the state of things ... instead of running to the forums and whining about how our free software killed your so-called mission critical server. Not only is it wrong-headed, it also reveals how badly some manage their servers to those of whom know better, and test everything before deployment.
Even MCSE's know better than to deploy Microsoft upgrades without testing them first.
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suid77
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, thank you for the calm response ciaranm. However, I would point out that your "don't bitch on the forums" comment is exactly what I felt I was responding to.
But you're absolutely right. The bugs need to be filed and the forums should not be the only place where these things start and end. As a developer you're more in touch with the bug listings, and as and end user I'm more comfortable with the forums. |
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Duncan Mac Leod
Guru
Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 317
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| suid77 wrote: | | The bugs need to be filed and the forums should not be the only place where these things start and end. |
Agreed! We need more bug-reports from the Community, so the developers can fix the bugs... - and everyone should use Bugzilla and not the forums!
But it is really curious that no-one has reported this obvious bug of mysql-4.0.23 while it was in ~x86 ! ...how long has it been flagged as ~x86?
...and it's also hard to believe how gcc-3.3.5 did get its stable flag, so that everyone was forced to do a fix_libtool_files.sh 3.3.4 |
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Duncan Mac Leod wrote: | | suid77 wrote: | | The bugs need to be filed and the forums should not be the only place where these things start and end. |
Agreed! We need more bug-reports from the Community, so the developers can fix the bugs... - and everyone should use Bugzilla and not the forums!
But it is really curious that no-one has reported this obvious bug of mysql-4.0.23 while it was in ~x86 ! ...how long has it been flagged as ~x86?
...and it's also hard to believe how gcc-3.3.5 did get its stable flag, so that everyone was forced to do a fix_libtool_files.sh 3.3.4 |
ohhh... no! don't tell me fix_libtool_files.sh is a big thing?!? executing it once after a gcc update is not a realy big issue! |
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stiwi
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 266
Location: hamburg - germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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to install proftpd, change this:
| Code: |
if use mysql; then
modules="${modules}:mod_sql:mod_sql_mysql"
myconf="--with-includes=/usr/include/mysql"
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to this:
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if use mysql; then
modules="${modules}:mod_sql:mod_sql_mysql"
myconf="--with-includes=/usr/include/mysql --with-libraries=/usr/lib/mysql"
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in the proftpd ebuild. |
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| stiwi wrote: | to install proftpd, change this:
| Code: |
if use mysql; then
modules="${modules}:mod_sql:mod_sql_mysql"
myconf="--with-includes=/usr/include/mysql"
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to this:
| Code: |
if use mysql; then
modules="${modules}:mod_sql:mod_sql_mysql"
myconf="--with-includes=/usr/include/mysql --with-libraries=/usr/lib/mysql"
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in the proftpd ebuild. |
please post that kind of info to https://bugs.gentoo.org
cheers
SteveB |
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stiwi
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 266
Location: hamburg - germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:37 am Post subject: |
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ok, i never did it befor  |
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| stiwi wrote: | | ok, i never did it befor |
Einmal ist es immer das erste Mal 
cheers
SteveB |
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stiwi
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 266
Location: hamburg - germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:44 am Post subject: |
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ja, aber mach ich morgen. jetzt muss ich noch schnell smtp-auth wieder zum laufen bringen ... nie wieder mysql updates ...  |
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| stiwi wrote: | | ja, aber mach ich morgen. jetzt muss ich noch schnell smtp-auth wieder zum laufen bringen ... nie wieder mysql updates ... |
Ich habe es Gott sei Dank schon hinter mir!
Habe dann auch gleich noch zig andere Sachen auf dem neuesten Stand gebracht. Nun funktioniert alles wieder. Sogar DSPAM läuft ohne Tam-Tam (und das in der 3.4er Beta Version. Die Geschwiendigkeit ist unglaublich!).
anyway... back to english.
cheers
SteveB |
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meulie
l33t
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 845
Location: a Dutchman living in Norway
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| absinthe wrote: |
The bug reports are appreciated but whining when you shoot yourself in the foot is not. |
Shooting oneself in the foot suggests it's the user that's making an error. Here we're talking about users who follow all instructions to the letter, but who have a gun(/software package) that blows up in their face... 
_________________
Greetz,
Evert Meulie |
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pablo_supertux
Advocate
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 2953
Location: Somewhere between reality and Middle-Earth and in Freiburg (Germany)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| stiwi wrote: | | ok, i never did it befor |
Genau dafür ist es sowas gedacht...
please change the language to english because not everybody understands german in a not-german board.
_________________
A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath,
Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth! |
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stiwi
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 266
Location: hamburg - germany
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| perfect |
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tgnb
Apprentice
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 208
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| meulie wrote: | | absinthe wrote: |
The bug reports are appreciated but whining when you shoot yourself in the foot is not. |
Shooting oneself in the foot suggests it's the user that's making an error. Here we're talking about users who follow all instructions to the letter, but who have a gun(/software package) that blows up in their face... |
A user who follows everything to the letter does NOT do any upgrades on a mission critical server that haven't been tested in a test environment first. It doesn't matter if its marked stable or whatever. If you follow everything to the letter you know to test any upgrades first and realize that even then, things can STILL go wrong on the production machine so they schedule the upgrade at a time when potential downtime would not cause any problems for the users. |
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meulie
l33t
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 845
Location: a Dutchman living in Norway
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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OK, let's rename unstable & stable to: unstable & less-unstable-but-still-needs-testing...
_________________
Greetz,
Evert Meulie |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| meulie wrote: | | OK, let's rename unstable & stable to: unstable & less-unstable-but-still-needs-testing... |
They're called 'arch' and '~arch', where arch is one of alpha amd64 arm hppa ia64 m68k mips ppc ppc64 ppc-macos ppc-od s390 sh sparc x86 x86-fbsd x86-obsd x86-od |
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tgnb
Apprentice
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 208
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| meulie wrote: | | OK, let's rename unstable & stable to: unstable & less-unstable-but-still-needs-testing... |
You can call it whatever you want, but that doesnt change the fact that its unwise to install a patch or upgrade on a mission critical server without testing it first. |
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howax
n00b
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 29
Location: /home/howax
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Kwallo wrote: | Is this worthy of a bug report? I couldn't get postfix to build until I linked them all with -
ln -s /usr/lib/mysql/libmysqlclient* /usr/lib/ |
ohh you really saved my ass there, thanks |
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