Nitro or Love?

travail101 · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:47 am Post subject: it's a sad sad world.

first off, Everybody who said anything negative or insulting that wasn't real live true constructive critism STFU, take a few deap breaths, go to your happy place, re-read your bogus or just plain mean post, think of dying starving children in Africa, then do whatever the hell you want.

my 2 cents (if you don't think it's worth a S* don't take it, and leave me alone about it), I have never had a kernel fail to compile, fail to boot, or lock up my system except for the Vanilla kernel... and the latest Love Sources (which gets really freaking slow reading the hard drive and so on with lots of programs open) or in cases where it was obviously my own fault and had nothing to do with a kernel patchset.

Vanilla kernel problem: the old Silicon Image SATA drivers caused a kernel panic (problem fixed, obviously due to people downloading, using, and reporting what they encountered... constructively, how did crap like those drivers even get in the vanilla sources? IDK but I'm glad it did cause the new drivers came out pretty fast)

latest Love Sources... using them now, I like others I get a serious slowdown with lots of programs open (sometomes) or it just takes a lot longer to load the 4th or 5th program (not including the tons of progs/processes from the X Sever down), maybe it the scheduler... i don't know, but as long as I avoid opening certain programs or doing certain things with certain programs, it too will stay up as long as I refuse to reboot it. really it's not that bad, I make it sound worse than it is, clearly needs some more work, as do the vanilla sources =P

just another note, my uptime in Windows XP without using faulty or unstable software, was also very good...

all this leads me to believe that you guys might ought to spend more time picking your hardware than your kernel (though i still recommend trying eveything you can afford to, hell i have 5 or more WMs on my system atm. how will you ever find that perfect, or almost perfect match if you don't go looking and trying what's out there) anyway crappy hardware is worse than crappy software cause you can't patch it for free unless the problem is in the firmware. and even if they did supply hardware "patches" I'd like to see half of you buy a new "patched" chip to solder on to your new video card to fix problem foo (DISCLAIMER: the other half of you who can or at least thing you can do this without breaking it, STFU I was talking to the half that CAN NOT, so if you can I'm not talking to you, thanx =P)

now this having been stated, coupled with the reports of people running complete ~x86 systems without any more problems than they've had with a "stable" system just goes to show that kernel software is written for hardware... (yes, this statement IS trying to get the coveted "Duh! statement of the year" award). now let me explain why I stated the obvious. different people write different parts of the kernel for different hardware (still going for that award) some people are better coders than others (maybe this statement should win) some people have better documented hardware, or open specification hardware to work with (this one won't win, seriously, not everyone already knows this, and you know it, some people won't even know what Open Specification is, and If i used the wrong word, you obviously know the right word, so switch it out for me while reading and continue with Shutting TFU) now that we got that out of the way, it should be clear why the same kernel behaves differently on different machines, not to mention it's technically not the "same" kernel, cause it has different hardware support compiled in/moduled and being used, it should also be clear why some people will want support for a feature their hardware has, even though YOU don't want that support. some people are just plain lazy (like me... sometimes) and don't want to take the time to research schedulers and other stuff, to roll their own patchset, so even though they DON'T want every patch included in foo-sources, they get it cause it has all the stuff they DO want, and was at least tested on X amount of computers before it released. (just a side note, but the Linux kernel in any flavor contains a lot of patches (or what used to be "patches" now deemed "part of the stable kernel tree") that support a bunch of crap I don't use or even want to use, but i still use the Linux kernel. BSD/HURD/Other kernels all contain crap I don't want. clearly there are legitimate reasons for using a patchset that supports more than you want, just as their are legitimate reasons for using anything that supports something you don't need or want, be it a kernel, or a car, or a girlfriend)

to the Gentoo Devs that deal with bitchy ungratefull Gentoo users, I sypathize, I empathize, but I will not label any rash behavior as "called for". 200,000,000,000 good deeds or users helped does not excuse assholery, if you're tired of assholes giving you crap about their shiny new kernel breaking the hard work you put into gentoo, then don't become the asshole it won't fix the problem. I really think a better solution would be to make "kernel in use" a required feild in bugzilla (if it isn't already) and make it a drop down list of only the supported kernel sources, such as vanilla/gentoo (if it isn't already). there's nothing wrong with doing this. if the user knows how to install nitro/love/foo/dark/ricer/ck/mm or whatever other kernel, then they know how to build an officially supported kernel and see if the problem still persists, if the problem is gone with the supported kernel a new disclaimer on bugzilla will tell them to submit their bug to their kernel's patcher (group). just a new disclaimer in general on kernels (if it's not already there) may do a lot to help curb all the crap you get from people using (blindly) or testing (without knowing what they're doing) new experimental, or "unstable" kernels.

I will not mention any names in this post in reference to malities... for two reasons I don't remember who said what, and I don't like pointing fingers. so, if you feel that my post has stuck 1 2 or 5 big fingers in your face, then you obviously know you were doing something I stated here, so STFU or apologize for being inhumaine, or just think about this whole situation for a few minutes in a rational objective way (remember the least you can do is nothing, so stop doing the bare minimum and make yourself useful). if you think I'm wrong in what I said about you, or that it doesn't apply to you, THEN I DIDN'T SAY IT TO YOU! so don't get on to me about character bashing either, I am talking to a bunch of hypothetical people based loosely on the ones who's posts I have read here tonight.

I would however mention the Nitro-dev names (but would ruin the spelling and am to lazy to check while writing this) just to say, I feel for you... I know the GPL is a complicated and strict document and that you aren't lawyers, and I know people are very cold, ungrateful, unforgiving, and just plain rude in this world. my advice: just ignore anyone's post which doesn't make a valid point, or which they can't make valid at your request (you chose your level of ass-tolerence, just keep refraining from being an ass in return like you've been doing, I like how you guys have handled all this so far, makes me like you guys all the more). other than that, keep patching kernels IF it's what you want to do with your time, keep releasing them to the general public IF it's what you want to do with your time (or you just have spair time and don't mind doing it) and keep being level-headed in the midst of mockers and jerks. Furthermore I for one (and I haven't been the only one), would like to say thank you for trying new things, mixing things together, falling on your faces (with the GPL debacle) and getting back up that much stronger, learning from your mistakes, and for being a part of the Great Open Source movement in general which is already having a big influence on the software world, and now influencing other fields of commerce such as creative works (i.e. Creative Commons and similar licenses). I will however refrain from commenting on the quality of your patchset since I'm just now trying it out (I've only just started the config process =D) but even if it doesn't work for me (which I doubt would happen since every kernel I've tried has worked (except some i rolled myself =P and vanilla with the old SI-SATA drivers)) I thank you for making it and I thank others for testing/trying it.

I thank Gentoo for it's Quality control and one of the best package management systems ever (and tons of other stuff), I thank normal users like myself for helping me when they could, I thank devs/programers for helping me when they could, I thank everyone who included a link when they said RTFM. I thank everyone who answered MFQ since they knew the answer instead of saying RTFM. I thank Google for being better than TFM. I thank Linus for writing/playing with "experimental" code back in (insert correct year here as I have forgotten and don't want to get flamed for saying the wrong year). I thank all testers, all coders, and all users, for making great software, testing great software, and using great software, and I thank all the people who made the crappy software that came before the good for making the good necessary. I would even like to thank Microsoft for at the very least providing some real motivation to make free software look nice, and support Drag & Drop and Plug & Play/Pray (no I'm not implying M$ did it first, I'm aknowledging that their market share proves they made it popular/expected)

now to answer the topic, which I feel I must do if I'm going to post in this thread...

Love-Sources are kinda cool, I know little to nothing about Nick's sched (or what he does in his shed) but I do know the latest Love Sources don't like a lot of stuff open at once on my machine... GTK2 apps seem to have the biggest problems, but that may be more with GTK 2.6.x than love, though the Vanilla 2.6.11 and the Gentoo 2.6.10 both outperformed it in my personal experience, but only this time around. as for Nitro, I may post again after trying it. ck I used too long ago to say anything relevant today. but yes, in the words of a bunch of other people, including my (other) self, just get them all and try them out, see what you like better/works better on your hardware.

and finally id like to say thanks to you the reader personally for your time and patience, when reading this post (if you just skipped to the end don't feel all warm and fuzzy, that thanks was obviously not for you, but I'll give you one anyway)

ps. thanks to everyone who just skipped to the end of my post and read the final 1 or 2 thank(s) for... at least reading the final 1 or 2 thank(s) (now you can feel warm and fuzzy too)

*travail101 puts the soap box back in the corner and get's on with his life*

discomfitor · l33t Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 927 Location: None

I was about to post and say that this thread was completely off topic, and has been for several pages, but it appears that travail101's post is almost nearing the vicinity of being on-topic. Congratulations travail101, you are one of the few. And thanks.
_________________
There is no substitute for experience.
Imperfection indicates a lack of effort.

ciaranm · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

thebigslide · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

ciaranm · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

thebigslide · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

ciaranm · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

thebigslide · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

sulu · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject:

ciaranm

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

gentoo_lan · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

thebigslide · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world.

discomfitor · l33t Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 927 Location: None

mascanho · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:03 am Post subject:

So who's winning Nitro or Love ??
_________________
Flatland Life is a Choice !
emerge avatar

thebigslide · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:05 am Post subject:

I think the game got rained out.

dcrook · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 83

discomfitor · l33t Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 927 Location: None

mascanho: Because of posts that incite people to flame one another, both are losing.

dcrook: Hahaha
_________________
There is no substitute for experience.
Imperfection indicates a lack of effort.

mascanho · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:

wtf ? i thought this was Nitro Vs Love ...
_________________
Flatland Life is a Choice !
emerge avatar

thebigslide · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:

reported

discomfitor · l33t Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 927 Location: None

mascanho: I'm glad that somebody can read the topic of a post. However, if you'll read the rest of the thread, you'll see that there hasn't actually been much comparing going on.

thebigslide: Don't strain yourself too much. niv24il is just a spambot account. It'll probably be deleted/banned soon.
_________________
There is no substitute for experience.
Imperfection indicates a lack of effort.

mascanho · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:34 am Post subject:

@ Darckness yes your right ppl always tends to run away from the real topic, and i think its a bit
dificult to banchmark something like that because each one of us has a diferent pc with diferet hardware, the variables are just too many ....
I for example use ck-sources if they work like i want why should i change ?! just because someone said nitro is "the thing" .
No tks

_________________
Flatland Life is a Choice !
emerge avatar

discomfitor · l33t Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 927 Location: None

mascanho: As much as I value your ability to post in every thread in every forum right now, I would appreciate it if you either contributed something related to the topic (ie READ SOME OF THE POSTS), or don't bother posting here. As of now, your posts (I've read all 5000 of the ones you've done in the past few mintues) seem to serve no real purpose, and this is no exception. I don't care if you change or not, but you shouldn't waste your (or our) time by posting something to the effect of "You can't benchmark things across multiple platforms because I said so".
_________________
There is no substitute for experience.
Imperfection indicates a lack of effort.