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soulwarrior
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | I am also going to minor in biology because it is simply fascinating and so cool.
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Great, I am myself a biologist 
| Lokheed wrote: |
It makes it impossible to see anything more than science fiction when people claim this or that about this or that. 99% of stats in the media are just twisted from some truthes but are nothing more than fancy graphs and charts to hold the audience and sell their warez.
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Remembers me the teaching of many buddhist masters: don't just learn or accept anything, go and look for yourself.
But it is of course easier to just adept what others say.
| Lokheed wrote: |
You have to be careful about common sense as it only works backwards. If you know the answer, you can use common sense to conclude how right or wrong you were. It may seem clear as day but only once you know the answer... |
[/quote]
Hm, not alway is the scientific approach the approbiate way to find an answer.
I do see the science more as an describing art, which can only see and explain a limited part of the universe.
But exploring the world is in itself very interesting, maybe our designed role in this universe.
Greetings,
Daniel |
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soulwarrior
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dsginter wrote: | I
However, I'd be happy to pay a small fee for someone with a like system to do this work for me and then let me sync the binaries. Bittorrent is our friend. Yes - I realize that there are some security concerns but I'm already trusting the Gentoo team a great deal. It isn't like I am checking code or anything.
Can such a beast exist? |
When you would centralize the distribution of the Gentoo-binaries you can solve the security issue by using signed packages. I do think that Ubuntu is already doing this, but I am not sure as I am new to this distribution.
Then use a p2p network nased on torrents or ed2k-links and the community can help distribute the binaries.
Maybe such a compiling farm could use a sensible set of cflags and use flags, as it would not be possible to compile every combination
Greetings,
Daniel |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| soulwarrior wrote: | | I do see the science more as an describing art, which can only see and explain a limited part of the universe. |
Thats exactly right. Science cannot prove anything. All science can do is explain the overt.
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marcion
Apprentice
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 158
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| dsginter wrote: | | ...Bittorrent is our friend. |
It would be interesting if Portage worked both ways, i.e. the contents of our ccache was sent up back to Gentoo as a Bittorrent tracker with appropriate md5sum or something. When we compile it could then take bits from other people's ccaches too. |
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Crete
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Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:09 am Post subject: |
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I feel dumber.
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sabaisabai
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:38 am Post subject: |
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The idea of Gentoo using more power is quite simple.
Take two identical machines, performing identical tasks (installing the system, using a word-processor, surfing the net, encoding MPEG4, updating the system). One of them runs Gentoo and the other FC3. I bet you the Gentoo system uses more power. The proof is in the figures already provided; systems under full load use more power. Gentoo places systems under full load more due to compilation. Therefore, Gentoo uses more power.
Multiply that unknown amount by a million and I would suggest (my opinion, no I'm not researching a thesis on this) that the difference in energy use is not trivial. |
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marcion
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| sabaisabai wrote: |
The proof is in the figures already provided; systems under full load use more power. Gentoo places systems under full load more due to compilation. Therefore, Gentoo uses more power.
Multiply that unknown amount by a million and I would suggest (my opinion, no I'm not researching a thesis on this) that the difference in energy use is not trivial. |
No, in your equation you are missing out the savings you get with Gentoo. Yes there is a big compile time at the beginning, but there is also savings in day to day tasks - i.e. is doesn't spend half its time processing support for hardware that you don't have. Comparing my Fedora system and my Gentoo one, Fedora redectects my hardware and settings everytime while Gentoo just starts.
A more interesting comparision would be to compare say Althon to Intel and see which one is more efficient with power. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| sabaisabai wrote: | The idea of Gentoo using more power is quite simple.
Take two identical machines, performing identical tasks (installing the system, using a word-processor, surfing the net, encoding MPEG4, updating the system). One of them runs Gentoo and the other FC3. I bet you the Gentoo system uses more power. The proof is in the figures already provided; systems under full load use more power. Gentoo places systems under full load more due to compilation. Therefore, Gentoo uses more power.
Multiply that unknown amount by a million and I would suggest (my opinion, no I'm not researching a thesis on this) that the difference in energy use is not trivial. |
You cant multiply a case study to represent a population. Think again at how flawed that is.
I take 1 caucasian from North America and take 1 black person from a tribe in Africa. I ask both to draw a circle. The North American does quite well and I note he is using his right hand. I look at the African who does relatively just as well and note he is using his left hand.
Can I therefore say that all Africans are left handed and all North Americans right handed? To take it further can I say all black men are left handed and all white men are right handed? Unfortunately the size of your sample from a population does indeed matter and assuming something doesnt hold much weight in a study.
You have to be careful not to use correlates to surmise conclusive evidence and you unfortunately cant assume. Psychology has taught be to be critical regarding studies and statistics but biology has taught me to be humble and modest in my beliefs of nature. Science can quickly turn your entire world inside out, blowing away your assumptions and predictions...
You are also somewhat confused on power consumption. An increase in power consumption would only be magnified by compilation compared to a binary distro. If you watched Evil Dead II on identical machines, one running Gentoo and the other running FC3, power consumption would not be statistical significant. Anything that would cause you to compile a program would increase CPU usage and thus increase power consumption. If you compiled OpenOffice on one machine (Gentoo) and encoded a movie to XVID on the other (FC3). During the time span that both are working on the respective tasks, energy consumption would still be the same. Stress both CPUs to the same % and both would consume the same power. You need to isolate the distro that would be in a state of higher CPU usage for a longer period of time to show evidence of Gentoo using more power. There are many independant variables that would need to be controlled for to perform such an experiment.
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sabaisabai
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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In this case it is perfectly valid to multiply out. 'Gentoo user' is going to perform the same tasks whether using a Gentoo system or another, pre-compiled, system. In the first case, the energy needed is a combination of compilation time and execution time. In the second case, the energy needed is just execution time. Since the execution time is the same for both cases, and since compilation requires energy, it can be deducted that 'Gentoo user' uses more energy by running a Gentoo box than something else. This can be expanded to the one million or so Gentoo users. If they perform the same tasks on 1 million Gentoo boxes, this will use more energy than performing those tasks on pre-compiled systems. Therefore, our use of Gentoo uses more energy than if we all used something else.
The left-handed/right-handed analogy doesn't have any bearing on this.
| Lokheed wrote: | | sabaisabai wrote: | The idea of Gentoo using more power is quite simple.
Take two identical machines, performing identical tasks (installing the system, using a word-processor, surfing the net, encoding MPEG4, updating the system). One of them runs Gentoo and the other FC3. I bet you the Gentoo system uses more power. The proof is in the figures already provided; systems under full load use more power. Gentoo places systems under full load more due to compilation. Therefore, Gentoo uses more power.
Multiply that unknown amount by a million and I would suggest (my opinion, no I'm not researching a thesis on this) that the difference in energy use is not trivial. |
You cant multiply a case study to represent a population. Think again at how flawed that is.
I take 1 caucasian from North America and take 1 black person from a tribe in Africa. I ask both to draw a circle. The North American does quite well and I note he is using his right hand. I look at the African who does relatively just as well and note he is using his left hand.
Can I therefore say that all Africans are left handed and all North Americans right handed? To take it further can I say all black men are left handed and all white men are right handed? Unfortunately the size of your sample from a population does indeed matter and assuming something doesnt hold much weight in a study.
You have to be careful not to use correlates to surmise conclusive evidence and you unfortunately cant assume. Psychology has taught be to be critical regarding studies and statistics but biology has taught me to be humble and modest in my beliefs of nature. Science can quickly turn your entire world inside out, blowing away your assumptions and predictions...
You are also somewhat confused on power consumption. An increase in power consumption would only be magnified by compilation compared to a binary distro. If you watched Evil Dead II on identical machines, one running Gentoo and the other running FC3, power consumption would not be statistical significant. Anything that would cause you to compile a program would increase CPU usage and thus increase power consumption. If you compiled OpenOffice on one machine (Gentoo) and encoded a movie to XVID on the other (FC3). During the time span that both are working on the respective tasks, energy consumption would still be the same. Stress both CPUs to the same % and both would consume the same power. You need to isolate the distro that would be in a state of higher CPU usage for a longer period of time to show evidence of Gentoo using more power. There are many independant variables that would need to be controlled for to perform such an experiment. |
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labrador
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: Not just the beginning |
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| marcion wrote: |
Yes there is a big compile time at the beginning |
In the beginning? Huh?
Perhaps you are new to Gentoo, but many of the users are addicted
to a command that looks like this: "emerge -uD world"
It updates packages on your system by compiling them from source.
This typically takes up a few hours of compile time every week.
If you never update your system you wouldn't notice, but the
typical Gentoo user does, I think.
As for the study of Africans or whatever, that analogy doesn't apply.
Our sample group is pretty large. Read the forums for awhile and you'll
get an idea how many people are using emerge -uD world and how many
do even worse things with electricity (recompile entire system once a month).
If you are not using emerge -u world once in awhile, I don't know
why you are using Gentoo. I'd think such a user would be a rarity. |
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DNL
n00b
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:50 am Post subject: |
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This whole thing is illogical imo. In a world where millions drive around in 15mpg or less SUVs, have incandescent bulbs burning through all hours of the night, and 200+watt televisions running for 4.5 hours a day numbing their minds, people running gentoo are a non-issue. It's like being diagnosed with lung cancer, but deciding to treat your athletes foot instead.
You want to save energy? Buy fuel efficient cars, upgrade your homes lighting, and destroy your television. Worried about your computer wasting energy? Buy a green PC, get a laptop, buy hardware that is substantially more energy efficient. I'll bet if you compared the energy use of a gentoo user on a laptop, to whatever distribution that's being touted here as a "green" alternative running on a mid-sized tower with a 400watt power supply, that mid-sized tower will consume 4 times as much energy compiles or not.
Seriously, focusing on the software you run as being the source of the problem is just plain silly. Here's another analogy: This is like buying a hummer and then taking the back seat out to reduce weight in the name of achieving "fuel efficiency". Or deciding to drive slow and not push it to achieve fuel efficiency. Yeah, it might make a small difference, and a million hummer owners doing just that would add up, but really, you already missed the whole point in the first place by buying the hummer. The software is not the problem, it's the hardware if you really want to make a difference. Focusing on the software is blowing smoke. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sabaisabai wrote: | In this case it is perfectly valid to multiply out. 'Gentoo user' is going to perform the same tasks whether using a Gentoo system or another, pre-compiled, system. In the first case, the energy needed is a combination of compilation time and execution time. In the second case, the energy needed is just execution time. Since the execution time is the same for both cases, and since compilation requires energy, it can be deducted that 'Gentoo user' uses more energy by running a Gentoo box than something else. This can be expanded to the one million or so Gentoo users. If they perform the same tasks on 1 million Gentoo boxes, this will use more energy than performing those tasks on pre-compiled systems. Therefore, our use of Gentoo uses more energy than if we all used something else.
The left-handed/right-handed analogy doesn't have any bearing on this. |
No, sorry, it does apply and no, sorry, you cant make assumptions, deductions, or estimations if you want to deal with a scientific experiment. If you want to provide evidence for anything in this world, guesses and predictions based on your own ideas and biases just arent good enough to show and explain something. I was talking about actually turning this idea into a real experiment, not making guesses and using speculative methods to obtain data.
Your entire argument is flawed and doesnt hold any validity here...its about as accurate as saying: "I think one does, so all of them should." No matter how sure of yourself you are, that method just simply doesnt work...
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labrador
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: experiment? |
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| Quote: | | No, sorry, it does apply and no, sorry, you cant make assumptions, deductions, or estimations if you want to deal with a scientific experiment. |
There is no experiment. Man it must take you years to conclude such general
statements for yourself like: "the price of gas has gone up this week".
What do you think if you hear something like that? Do you
retort "define gas!", and insist on polling the price at every gas station
in the country before settling on a conclusion? |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: experiment? |
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| labrador wrote: | | Quote: | | No, sorry, it does apply and no, sorry, you cant make assumptions, deductions, or estimations if you want to deal with a scientific experiment. |
There is no experiment. Man it must take you years to conclude such general
statements for yourself like: "the price of gas has gone up this week".
What do you think if you hear something like that? Do you
retort "define gas!", and insist on polling the price at every gas station
in the country before settling on a conclusion? |
Your analogy does not hold any relevance to what we are talking about. If you wanted to scientifically find out if gas has gone up in your area, go look at the price on the pump...its actually quite simple. We are talking about something a little more advanced than: "Its warmer today than it was yesterday." You dont need an experiment to tell you that, just go look at the weather reports. Obviously this stuff is over your head based on your reply so what are you trying to prove? What are you getting upset about anyway?
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labrador
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: experiment? |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | Your analogy does not hold any relevance to what we are talking about. If you wanted to scientifically find out if gas has gone up in your area, go look at the price on the pump...its actually quite simple. We are talking about something a little more advanced than: "Its warmer today than it was yesterday." You dont need an experiment to tell you that, just go look at the weather reports. Obviously this stuff is over your head based on your reply so what are you trying to prove? What are you getting upset about anyway? |
Wow, so in some cases you are able to make a broad conclusion based on one input!
Weird.
So what are you talking about? Try making a statement about Gentoo and energy,
not Africa and left/right hands. That is what this thread is about : Gentoo and energy
consumption. Can you define your statement in that context? If not, there is
a button called New Topic floating around somewhere. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: Re: experiment? |
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| labrador wrote: | | Lokheed wrote: | | Your analogy does not hold any relevance to what we are talking about. If you wanted to scientifically find out if gas has gone up in your area, go look at the price on the pump...its actually quite simple. We are talking about something a little more advanced than: "Its warmer today than it was yesterday." You dont need an experiment to tell you that, just go look at the weather reports. Obviously this stuff is over your head based on your reply so what are you trying to prove? What are you getting upset about anyway? |
Wow, so in some cases you are able to make a broad conclusion based on one input!
Weird.
So what are you talking about? Try making a statement about Gentoo and energy,
not Africa and left/right hands. That is what this thread is about : Gentoo and energy
consumption. Can you define your statement in that context? If not, there is
a button called New Topic floating around somewhere. |
Go and pick a fight with someone else, I dont have time to argue with someone who is going to find fault in all things--and all things can be found fault in. You are a waste of my time...
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sabaisabai
Tux's lil' helper
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Lokheed, based on the premise that a single user (Mister A) will need more energy to perform his tasks using Gentoo than if Mister A performed those tasks using another, pre-compiled, OS, it is very valid to state that a million users performing their set tasks will require more energy to perform them if they are all using Gentoo rather than if they are all using another, pre-compiled OS. Where are my "assumptions, deductions, or estimations"?
It's like saying, we have this particular group of 1 million bread-eaters. That particular one million bread eaters either all toast their bread or all eat it straight out of the packet. Which scenario uses more electricity?
Do you need me to break it down to simpler terms? Are you going to get into your 'that's not science' tirade again? Besides, who said anything about scientific experiments besides your good self? The rest of us are happy with a light-hearted chat about the topic.
I'm going to make toast now because I'm hungry, or at least I assume that's what the gnawing sensation means. |
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labrador
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:36 am Post subject: make the science whirl |
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| sabaisabai wrote: | | I'm going to make toast now because I'm hungry, or at least I assume that's what the gnawing sensation means. |
What? You mean, like, without empirical evidence and based only on your subjective experience?
Don't do it, man!
Try to get a control group together of people who don't have a "gnawing sensation"
and place them in a cage with toast pellets. You can get in the other cage
with people who do have a gnawing sensation and also have toast pellets
available. After one hour, which cage of humans has eaten more toast
pellets? Publish to a journal and wait to have someone replicate the experiment
across the ocean from whereever you live. |
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DNL
n00b
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| sabaisabai wrote: | The rest of us are happy with a light-hearted chat about the topic.
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I question how light hearted this chat is when it seems to be being done by people advocating another distribution on the grounds of saving power. Especially given the fact that one of the guys here started a thread about why he wasn't going to use Gentoo anymore, or something like that.
Here's a question that those who so sincerely care about saving power should be able to answer... You have a typical modern "whitebox" desktop computer with a hard drive, modern video card, dvd drive, and a 400 watt power supply. Just by leaving the computer on, doing nothing, how much power are you burning?
Now, using that info, if your system takes just 5 more seconds to boot up with another distro, how much extra power are you wasting during the life of your machine during all the reboots? And if you answer you don't reboot, BZZZZZ, wrong answer, you are a power waister far worse than any gentoo user who powers off his machine when not in use. |
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pseudonym
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Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DNL wrote: | | sabaisabai wrote: | The rest of us are happy with a light-hearted chat about the topic.
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I question how light hearted this chat is when it seems to be being done by people advocating another distribution on the grounds of saving power. Especially given the fact that one of the guys here started a thread about why he wasn't going to use Gentoo anymore, or something like that.
Here's a question that those who so sincerely care about saving power should be able to answer... You have a typical modern "whitebox" desktop computer with a hard drive, modern video card, dvd drive, and a 400 watt power supply. Just by leaving the computer on, doing nothing, how much power are you burning?
Now, using that info, if your system takes just 5 more seconds to boot up with another distro, how much extra power are you wasting during the life of your machine during all the reboots? And if you answer you don't reboot, BZZZZZ, wrong answer, you are a power waister far worse than any gentoo user who powers off his machine when not in use. |
What's wrong with changing your OS if it's going to save you energy (and therefore money)?
I don't know how much a typical system uses under zero load. But it definatly uses more when compiling, and it boots up in less than a minute so I turn if off when I don't need it. 5 seconds, one reboot a day (say), over a year that's about half an hour. How long did it take to compile Gentoo again?
By the way, what country do you live in? Bet it's the USA ;-) |
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sabaisabai
Tux's lil' helper
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Posts: 83
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DNL wrote: | | sabaisabai wrote: | The rest of us are happy with a light-hearted chat about the topic.
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I question how light hearted this chat is when it seems to be being done by people advocating another distribution on the grounds of saving power. |
I guess you missed the 'wink' after the sentence suggesting another distribution? Winks make for light-hearted chats me thinks. |
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soulwarrior
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | If you compiled OpenOffice on one machine (Gentoo) and encoded a movie to XVID on the other (FC3). During the time span that both are working on the respective tasks, energy consumption would still be the same. Stress both CPUs to the same % and both would consume the same power. |
I think for the sake of this discussion one shouldn't mix up "tools" with "jobs".
With "tools" you can get your "job" done.
So the gentoo man would still wait for his "tools" to be done, in this case "Openoffice".
Will the other guy, using Fedora, already works on a job, which consists of "video encoding", because his "tool" is already available.
Bascially, for the same amount of energy, the Fedora guy would be more "productive" than the Gentoo guy.
Greetings,
Daniel |
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soulwarrior
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Not just the beginning |
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| labrador wrote: |
It updates packages on your system by compiling them from source.
This typically takes up a few hours of compile time every week.
If you never update your system you wouldn't notice, but the
typical Gentoo user does, I think.
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Or think about the new emerge option "--newuse" |
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soulwarrior
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| DNL wrote: |
I question how light hearted this chat is when it seems to be being done by people advocating another distribution on the grounds of saving power. Especially given the fact that one of the guys here started a thread about why he wasn't going to use Gentoo anymore, or something like that.
|
Well, I am the one, who did start the thread and if you would have read all the posts, you would have seen that I don't quit Gentoo.
In fact it is still running on 2 servers and I won't change it there.
One server is my personal one, a mythtv box running on a cool PIII
Before the mythv box was base on an epia mainboard but unfortunately the mainboard is defective.
The other one is a production server on my work, without X and so on. It is great that I can configure it woth the use flags exactly to my needs.
But for my desktop purposes, aka writing a letter, doing a presentation, I do now try out a Debian based OS.
And I am really thankfull that I do have this choice. Think of a world, where there would be only one OS.
| DNL wrote: |
Here's a question that those who so sincerely care about saving power should be able to answer... You have a typical modern "whitebox" desktop computer with a hard drive, modern video card, dvd drive, and a 400 watt power supply. Just by leaving the computer on, doing nothing, how much power are you burning?
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On how much energy do you burn by leaving it on to just simply compile your tools you need to get your job done?
Often I heard in the forum, that users would compile openoffice, kde or a similar big package overnight. I did do this myself. Think about it: you leave your computer a whole night on, just to compile your tools.
Greetings,
Daniel |
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donjuan
l33t
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 760
Location: At Uni
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| soulwarrior wrote: | | Think about it: you leave your computer a whole night on, just to compile your tools. |
I don't leave my computer on just to compile stuff; I'll compile large packages when I feel like it, as long as I'm not going to be rebooting my computer anytime soon. I find that if I nice portage my computer still responds fine.
I still leave my computer on all night though, and my dad does the same with his computers. However, our computers never sit idle, they're always folding of proteins (folding@home), nearly 100% CPU usage 24/7. So really the argument I'd see here to not use Gentoo is that your comptuer could be doing other more useful things with its processing power. I certainly won't be switching anytime soon though .
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