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solatis
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Joined: 06 Nov 2002
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Location: University of Twente, The Netherlands
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 Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | | The company I work for is quite anal about buying and using extra machines for compiling... All I am saying that this not practical in the corporate world... Why have 5 machines setup to do what 4 machines could do. |
I'm probably going to get flamed for this big time, but maybe you should reconsider using gentoo for that purpose and look into debian?
I personally think that Gentoo's last aim would be quick-installation and fast-upgrades, and that's exactly what you're asking.
Just my $0.02
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guero61
l33t
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 811
Location: Behind you
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I would agree with solatis, but in answer to your question of what this has to do with a binary distro is that your coroporation would be making it's own, in essence. To the reference machines, it would be Gentoo, but to any machines below them on the tree it'd be [insert your company name] Linux running over Portage. Heck, if you really wanted to be twisted, you could distribute .debs or rpm's, or porn, or whatever over the portage system. Portage is just a framework, and Gentoo is built on top of it. |
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cchapman
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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 440
Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I asked about a binary distro...
I just figured it would be nice for the people at gentoo to make a little money so that the project doesnt die... you can only go so long untill all the sponsors and money run out...
Making a binary distro with these forums and bugzilla would be the best support compared to any other distro... (plus you dont have to pay for it.) |
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jimlynch11
Guru
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 590
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | Sorry I asked about a binary distro...
I just figured it would be nice for the people at gentoo to make a little money so that the project doesnt die... you can only go so long untill all the sponsors and money run out...
Making a binary distro with these forums and bugzilla would be the best support compared to any other distro... (plus you dont have to pay for it.) |
DONATE! if you like it, keep it alive  |
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solatis
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Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 214
Location: University of Twente, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| jimlynch11 wrote: | | DONATE! if you like it, keep it alive |
Hey, I've already paid Gentoo more than I did to mr Gates...
Then again, that's not a really hard task, considering the fact that I never really bought anything from mr Gates 
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cchapman
Guru
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 440
Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Already have thank you.... |
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Hypnos
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Joined: 18 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just to throw another log onto the fire, perhaps some SIG (special interest group) could maintain a reference binary distro that's updated, say, nightly with stable packages only. Some packages would block others, so choices would have to be made (perhaps leaning towards server usage).
Sysadmins, after having quickly installed the distro, could quickly tweak the system in post-install using Portage (perhaps overriding some of the choices made on mutually-blocking packages). They could continue to maintain the system thereafter using Portage.
The benefits of this, in addition to those of normal Gentoo/Portage:
* Help out sysadmins who don't have the time or resources to maintain their own reference platform, and need to be able to reinstall quickly.
* Test which compiler flags/package options are good for high-availability server usage?
* Increase the impetus for a better install process? At least, it would help n00bs up and running (pedagogical considerations of a torturous install not withstanding).
I'm a home laptop user, but I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02. I had some sysadmin duties with my research group in undergrad; we mostly used Red Hat and Debian. I was not particularly pleased with either.
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cchapman
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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you. Why cant anyone else take the blinders off. |
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elboricua
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Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 226
Location: Bronx, NY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | | Thank you. Why cant anyone else take the blinders off. |
Well I for one do not have blinders on. Gentoo is a "Source Distribution" and has been so since it's inception. Debian is a "Binary Distribution" and has been so since it's inception. You are comparing apples and oranges there.
Debians apt-get is extremely comperable to Gentoo's portage. Most of us who use Gentoo know that it takes time to compile things and we live with that. If I wanted to build a system in 1-2 hours I would install Debian. apt-get install <mypackage> is just as easy as emerge <mypackage>.
Debian like Gentoo can be made to only install what you want. If you do not want X then you edit the apt-get config file to make it so.
I am of the opinion why should we reinvent the wheel? It has already been done, and done well by the nice folks over at Debian. And Debian like Gentoo is a free distro that survives on the donations of its users.
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cchapman
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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| But its not gentoo!! |
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bsolar
Bodhisattva
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2764
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| GWN of the 14th April 2003 wrote: | Gentoo as a binary release?
The question was raised as to why Gentoo does not provide a binary package system. Binary vs. source has always been a point of contention among Gentoo users. Many want the convenience and speed offered by binary packages while others decry such efforts as taking focus away from making Gentoo Linux the best source-based distribution available.
As some users may already know, Gentoo Linux is working on providing a limited subset of binary packages in the form of the Gentoo Reference Platform. Applications such as KDE, XFree86 and other large applications will be offered in both source and binary form in order to provide a choice to our users. The first "official" release of the Gentoo Reference Platform will come with the final release of Gentoo Linux 1.4. |
So there's something in the way.
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cchapman
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I just think if you could take the talent of all the developers and create a great binary based distro also gentoo would have a chance to become something better than redhat...
with all the talent that goes into portage, dont you think it could be something something more beautiful.
if you take all the time that they answer questions and put that into building truelly awesome binaries it could easily contend with redhat..
But leave the source based there for all the gentoo hackers that love compiling from scratch. personally I love compiling from scratch but for gentoo to go into a corporation is not feasible...
I personally hate rpms and just tried debian and it doesnt eve come close to what gentoo can do.
Put some of the skills to work to advance XFree86,
Xfree86 in itself is what turns people away from Linux from what I have seen. Everyone I taklk to (which are mostly noobs) say that X runs way to slow. I also just tried Accelerated X on gentoo and wow. Thats what XFree86 should be.
take it as you will... |
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bsolar
Bodhisattva
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2764
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | | But leave the source based there for all the gentoo hackers that love compiling from scratch. personally I love compiling from scratch but for gentoo to go into a corporation is not feasible... |
Gentoo is born as a source-based distro and I hope it will stay a source-based distro (welcoming binary packages in the case). It's not true that "Gentoo in a corporation is not feasible", it depends on the corporation. If you read the GWN of the 14th April 2003 you'll see that there is a corporation in Italy using Gentoo (and happy with it). Of course maybe they have different needs but that's why there are many distros...
Gentoo is not born to be a "corporate distro" but it's flexibility allows it to work nicely everywhere, you just have to set-up things as already explained (i.e.). I don't think it's such a problem for a corporation to have a couple more machines (at least not in the corporations I've seen).
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Jeld
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 84
Location: NYC, US
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:00 am Post subject: |
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OK, I do not see what the problem is? Portage already supports binary packages. IF someone compiles packages for you the main attractive point of gentoo will be lost, optimizations. So, in order to run a server farm with gentoo, I would do the following. Set up testing system ( you need to test stuff before rolling out into production right? ), with gentoo from an official rsync mirror and stuff, make reference install. Use portage to create binary packages for all software in the reference install and put it into some sort of central location. Install an rsync server and copy the version of portage tree from the reference setup, create a profile, so that emerge system will install all the software needed by the production system, compile a reference kernel and store in a central location, create a custom boot CD to automatically partition the drives just right, load all the proper modules and do emerge sync and emerge system ( bootstrap can be skipped since stuff is already compiled by us ). There we go. If everything is done right, a server install should take a few minutes with no interaction except for the IP address and name. A testing system can pull all the updates from an official rsync mirror and after testing new ebuilds and building binary packages copying ebuilds to the local rsync server. All the production systems can do emerge -u system as a cron job once a day or something. And since by the time stuff is out of testing everything is distributed as binary install times should be really low
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cchapman
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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:18 am Post subject: |
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do any of you work for a fortune 500 company?
If not you have no clue what I am talking about
corporations do not want a compile farm or multiple other servers on the network to do jobs just so you can build binary packages.
They want something that just works...
Which gentoo does for a end user that has nothing else better to do on a home network or in a fairly small company..
Corporations dont want to have to buy more servers to do work that doesnt really pertain to the main objective of the server.... |
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st. anger
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Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | | I just think if you could take the talent of all the developers and create a great binary based distro also gentoo would have a chance to become something better than redhat...... |
gentoo is already better than redhat
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cchapman
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Yes it is for the average geek but not for corporations |
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notkevin
n00b
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| I am kind of interested to know how you currently maintain the software on your systems now. I am sure you could maintain the source distrubution on the same infrastructure you maintain your current binary distrubution. I am not sure what your 6 extra servers are needed for. Where I work, we maintain many different installations with just one "reference" system for our over 100+ Linux workstations. |
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¤£ý§êrg
n00b
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 28
Location: Somewhere on Earth and omg it's boring
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:34 pm Post subject: why dont u build .. |
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in responce to : (cchapman) - Just a stupid idea.. but for Gentoo to get into the mainstream(if they wanted to) should come out with a binary only distro.
 Why don't u build the binaries yaself on another machine ?
why not make an install and build pkg's(binaries) outa the system u install using non agressive use flags and maintain the system that way ? the company u work for could have a machine scripted to just build pkgs all the time so if ya system ever went down u could rebuild in minutes.
Or why not just use the gentoo/knopix cd to back up the entire distro once it's on ya server just bzip2 the whole install bang it onto cd and then u can do a total reinstall in minutes.  
just an idea ... |
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bsolar
Bodhisattva
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2764
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cchapman wrote: | | Corporations dont want to have to buy more servers to do work that doesnt really pertain to the main objective of the server.... |
The "main objective of the server" is decided by the corporation itself. Corporations don't want superfluous servers, if your corporation considers that having some more servers to be able to use Gentoo is interesting, these servers are not superfluous by any means.
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeld wrote: | | IF someone compiles packages for you the main attractive point of gentoo will be lost, optimizations. |
that's not the main reason i became intereseted in gentoo. i run gentoo because of the package management and the friendly community. it's bsd's ports, but for linux. what the original poster is trying to accomplish is a linux distribution with that feature. this makes it super easy to maintain.
sure, you could say "why not just use fbsd?". well... because fbsd is not linux. we'd hardly be supporting linux and gentoo if we went with fbsd, no? and last i checked, it was like pulling teeth to get any help from the fbsd community. moreso than debian.
you could also say, "why not just get debian?" let's not open that can of worms.
i don't understand why it's difficult for some of you to grasp the concept. what is so wrong with wanting gentoo w/ binaries. don't tell me it's because optimisations. i could give two shits about that and i assume the original poster could too. we want a fully featured package management system, with an excellent community such as this one to back it up. we want it to just work too. gentoo accomplishes that. debian and fbsd do not.
what we don't want is to sit and wait while our ancient server takes forever to compile something though. we say "mission critical" for a reason.
with all that in mind, any future posters please don't give us your spiel on optimisations. we dont care. dont tell us how stupid a binary distro is to use. dont tell use to go with redhat or some other asinine distro. if you have nothing useful to input, then don't give use your ".02 cents". we shouldn't have to defend a perfectly good idea against your bullshit.
note: jeld, this isn't a direct attack against you. please don't take it personally.
ryan
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| bsolar wrote: | | I don't think it's such a problem for a corporation to have a couple more machines (at least not in the corporations I've seen). |
oftentimes, when you have a windows-based company that's comfortable where they are, it's difficult to coax them into linux. the cost savings are almost always phenominal.
if you do manage to talk them into installing linux, they'll only give you minimal resourcse to work with just to see if you *can* do it. in the event that you were able to get it to run, then they might give you more hardware to play with.
this is why we can't have six+ machines. we only usually get one test machine to prove our worth.
ryan
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bsolar
Bodhisattva
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2764
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kraylus wrote: | | bsolar wrote: | | I don't think it's such a problem for a corporation to have a couple more machines (at least not in the corporations I've seen). |
oftentimes, when you have a windows-based company that's comfortable where they are, it's difficult to coax them into linux. the cost savings are almost always phenominal.
if you do manage to talk them into installing linux, they'll only give you minimal resourcse to work with just to see if you *can* do it. in the event that you were able to get it to run, then they might give you more hardware to play with.
this is why we can't have six+ machines. we only usually get one test machine to prove our worth.
ryan |
When I said that I was thinking about a corporation with a project of migration, so with some decisions and tests already made. I know that things are more complex
BTW. the point here seems to be that Gentoo is slow to install and upgrade, having to compile every package, so the "servers" solution was proposed. Of course there are tradeoffs (you need the machines and need to get them working the proper way) but it solves the problem, if the corporation is intended to invest in such solution.
If your corporation doesn't like that solution or doesn't want to provide the adeguate resources, Gentoo seems to be moving toward binary package support, reading the article in the GWN of the 14th April 2003, so it's matter of time.
I personally think that it would be great to have support for binary packages (official and more wide that now and) and I'm glad that things seem on the way, even though I hope that Gentoo will stay a source-based distro.
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Hypnos
Advocate
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
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Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bsolar wrote: | | I personally think that it would be great to have support for binary packages (official and more wide that now and) and I'm glad that things seem on the way, even though I hope that Gentoo will stay a source-based distro. |
That's just it. Most distros are source based only to the extent that it aids in managing the binaries, eliminating any advantage the source provides. Gentoo can provide the best of both worlds by being source-based and having a binary reference platform. Sometimes reference binaries are better for a given task.
That having been said, I hope the effort to create a cogent binary distro doesn't take away from the continued development of portage.
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cchapman
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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Fremont, NE
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for the comments... You guys know what I am talking about... |
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