Does Gentoo Linux need an install program?

magnet · Guru Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 582 Location: france

hello,

I don t think so. they can use linux because you're their sysadmin.if they were alone,even a install program coulnd help them,especially when time come to compile kernels or other funny things

maybe I'm wrong.
my gf use gentoo too , but she used linux for 2 years now.and she didn t find it so easy to use.
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starquake · n00b Joined: 07 Apr 2003 Posts: 31 Location: Oulu,Finland

For what this is worth, being total n00b to Linux and Gentoo linux I think I've learned a great deal without having automated installing process..Actually was one of the things that "lured" me into the world of Gentoo!! Making mistakes, going back, messing something up again(because not reading the fxxing manual..)just improves my skills and understanding on gentoo and linux in general. Take this from me:Don't give in to demands of making things easier just because people are too lazy to try to learn. Or the demands of "big" Linux distros or God forbid! windoze world..
my 0.2$..
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Yarrick · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:35 pm Post subject:

the learning effect is good with the current install, and it shows that linux can be perfectly controlled from the CLI, which is good to point out to some users.

I dont like the idea of an automated installation script, but some way to show the installation doc easier could be handy. just make sure to make it optional.

starquake · n00b Joined: 07 Apr 2003 Posts: 31 Location: Oulu,Finland

PlatinumCursor · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:15 am Post subject:

I'm not triyng to be mean or anything, but I think that a user that cannot go through with the already easy installation process wont be able to use their system once it gets built. Gentoo is really not designed as a a first distribution for a person, and only people with a bit of Linux experience should undertake the task of it. Many new people to linux wont know the commandline, they wont know what packages do what, and because of that, it will make their linux experience miserable. I think the current system provides an awesome simplicity for the intermediate and above user, and allows for infinte configurability - configurability that new users should bypass.

I say stick with text - it just works.
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christsong84 · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:04 am Post subject:

IMHO....the text mode install teaches you soooo much, you've already made it easy to do for n00bs with the emerge util AND the awesome documentation...I've said it before and I'll say it again, the documentation makes or breaks a linux distro...and it definetly made this one for me.

dsample · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:05 pm Post subject:

Personally, I think it doesn't. I like the fact that when I follow the installation guide I can change a little bit here, change a little bit there, and end up with a system which does exactly what I want it to.

I also mentioned Gentoo to my university lecturers, because they use Slackware for Linux practical rooms, and everyone's always complaining that the packaging systems rubbish, and that the computers never have the tools they need on. The only reason they seemed to choose Slackware was because you have to do everything for it once it's installed. There is now the possibility (they said) that they'll change to Gentoo for the Linux computers, but the lecturers only really got interested once they found out that you had to do EVERYTHING.

It might be nice to have a GUI or some sort of installation wizard for beginners to use, but I'd hope it would tell them on every step of the way, what was happening.

Perhaps an 'installation shell' could be created. So that you still have to type everything in, but it splits the screen into two parts, one half for the installation guide, taking note of what the user's done so far, and where they might want to proceed to, the other half would be a normal shell where they could type the commands.

panserg · Apprentice Joined: 16 Apr 2003 Posts: 188

What I like in wincvs (CVS shell for win32) - it show the actual command it performs as if you would type it in CLI. In fact, the log window *IS* the shell where you can type CVS commands instead of using GUI. It is the perfect tool for learning: you focus on GUI when you think more about *WHAT* you are doing, and you focus back on CLI when you want to control precisely *HOW* you are doing it. Besides, you can debug and save your own macros on Python - your GUI is growing with you!

I'd like to see GUI interface to Portage and to Gentoo installation in exactly same way: (A) with default menus/dialogs for the most typical tasks, (B) with log window, which is the shell showing actual commands and letting you to type new commands, and (C) with ability to type, save and re-use macros on Python.

Many hackers fail to understand that most of us are neither absolute beginners nor absolute experts. We know something better, something worse. We are experts on some tasks and we'd like to have more control when performing them. At the same time we are still beginners on the other tasks and we'd like GUI to guide us.

Another thing that some people fail to understand is that (1) doing yourself and (2) being guided do not exclude each other. Even moreover, they are orthogonal to a dihotomy of (alpha) *WHAT* your are doing and (beta) *HOW* you are doing it. Both questions (alpha and beta) can be learned by either way (1 or 2) or both.

dh003i2

I think Gentoo has to make a decision early on -- are we going to be a distro that does things the *right, rigorous* way, or one that does things the *quick, easy* way. I am not saying that doing things the quick easy way is wrong. It is right for many users.

But I think the idea of Gentoo is to actually learn something.

What Gentoo could use is a step-by-step install walktrhough as you go along. When installing, about half the screen should automatically be devoted to a step-by-step walkthrough (a replica of the manual). It should not allow you to type commands other than those that are appropriate at the time, forcing you to actually go through things the right way, and not skip steps and fuck everything up.

I myself forgot to mount /proc before compiling the kernel. The result on the first boot was that it couldn't boot. This could have been alleviated if the installer rigorously forced me only to use the appropriate commands.

It should still be text-based and CLI-driven. But because it's *so* easy to skip a step and screw up the rest of the install, it should rigidly prevent you from doing that. This way, users' still learn things, but aren't allowed to fuck things up. Users do not benefit from fucking thinggs up because they were sleepy.
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alkalinelito · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:28 pm Post subject:

Just think !
Even with nice installer, Kernel compiling will need some reading ....
come one gentoo needs to stay the way it is.
If gentoo gets an installer, will need a some pre-compiled kernel, where are the optimizations !?!??!!?
Even that Pre-compiled KDE, Xfree stuff is crap.
Stop this Stop this !!!!!
No installer , no pre-compiled packages ! ,
OTHERWISE GENTOO WILL NOT BE GENTOO

panserg · Apprentice Joined: 16 Apr 2003 Posts: 188

dh003i2

(1) It would not hurt to have the option of using an installer that's more user-friendly. When the installer of Debian is an upgrade over what you've got, then you know you're pretty user-prickly. All the 133t people can still use their plain old text-based CLI-typing install method.

(2) I think it would be good to -- in regards to the text-based typing install -- make it a little bit more guided. It should walk you through the install process, giving instructions on what to do at each step, and only allowing you to type the appropriate commands.
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ianneub · Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:23 pm Post subject:

I think gentoo needs an installer because it sure does suck installing gentoo on my 30 servers here at the office. Theres a really good install script running over here.
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Ben2040 · Guru Joined: 07 May 2003 Posts: 445 Location: UK

Hi
Sorry if someone has already mentioned this but I don't have time to read it just yet. Will do when I get back from school though!! I think there should be an installer - ncurses, text or mabye X BUT you should be able to choose to install automagically or manually.

Ben

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SubZero · n00b Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

puggy · Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:32 am Post subject:

I don't think I would have learned nearly as much if everything was done for me. I'm much happier to have done it the old fashioned way. :-D

Puggy
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oopstu · n00b Joined: 22 Jun 2003 Posts: 20 Location: VA

I'm a newbie to Gentoo but not to the Installer having distros like deb, rh, mandrake... FWIW I agree with the naysayers. I think it's a bit daunting at first to look at the install guide, see the number of steps and realize that each of them can/may take considerable time. That aside, if you're not interested in 1. How this dist differs from what you're used to or 2. tweaking all the little things along the way, then I'm not sure why you would choose Gentoo as your distro to begin with.

I suppose that it'd be a little more straightforward to have the install text automated a bit so that it explains a step and gives you a command line in which to do it but the benefit to me seems negligible. After all with the guide in front of you you know you're x% done at any given time.

I think the focus should remain on improving the LiveCDs like the differences between 1.4 rc2 and rc4 (Sorry if I'm messing up the versions. I'm a noob.) Popping in the 1.4 rc4 live cd the network auto config was great to get the ball rolling, and it looks nice too. Even if it is just a background for a terminal... it looks nice.

I say keep it a little hard. It's very attainable for whoever wants to use it, and it forces users to evaluate their needs and truly choose Gentoo only if it's appropriate.

Nalfein · n00b Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 3

The big problem if you ask the user to choose between "HIGH END" automated installation and raw text-base, most peoples will choose the automated one, if i had choice, i think i took the easy one. I'm now happy that gentoo FORCE me to do everything by myself, to make mistakes to crash my system and LEARN.

I'm so sorry for people who think mistakes are bad and gentoo installation shoud be Mistakeless, you learn by your errors

I switch from mandrake to gentoo from a month ago (not easy to customize mandrake). But i realize, at the very beggining of the installation process, the knowledge aquire from years of mandrake utilisation is near nothing. Gentoo is the first distro to make me think about completely erase my window partition and realy start to learn ...nix env.

Radea · n00b Joined: 08 May 2003 Posts: 59 Location: United States

The main reason I wanted to use Gentoo was because I wanted to learn howto install an opterating sytem without an installer, and I wanted to learn a little more about GNU/Linux that the other distros keep hidden from ya'. :oops:

I think my next stage will be building an LFS though, and using Portage on it

pens · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:34 am Post subject:

I think the install doc is so well done, that all you have to do is follow it exactly like it says, and it will work 99% of the time.

Spire · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:21 pm Post subject:

It really would pain me if a fully automated graphical installer came out for Gentoo. This distrobution, like every single other one that deserves to exist does so because it caters to a niche of users. It's impossible to make a distro that pleases everybody, so I don't think Gentoo should try to. Gentoo needs to stick to it's niche, not try and adopt a group of users that won't even be able to take advantage of it properly.

I think the current installer is near ideal. If anything is going to be done, it should be further improving on the already very good install.txt file. I think that's exactly what the original poster, and many people after him have suggested. I don't think that the user should be forced only to use commands that the installation script thinks are appropriate like some have suggested, but as long as there is an option to disable this behaviour there's no reason why it shouldn't be there.

The only reason to have an automated installation that I can see is for experienced users who will no longer benefit from the regular install. If this is done, it shouldn't be done to expand the user base, but to eliminate an annoyance for the current one. As I said, Gentoo has it's purpose. What's the point in deviating from it to accomplish what many other user friendly distrobutions already have? Sure they have their faults too (ie., RPM hell), but I think those should be resolved by their respective distrobutions. Sure Linux is about choice, but a choice between two wheels (one reinvented) isn't very useful.

I also really like iplayfast's idea. I'm not sure why so many people didn't though I suspect a few didn't properly understand it.

speedy_mcdrive_fast · n00b Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 9 Location: Minnesota, USA

All of the commands are in the installation files anyways, why not make it more automated rather than copy and paste.
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Athlon_Jedi · n00b Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 45 Location: Tifton, GA

in my opinion the install process for gentoo is not all that difficult as long as people follow the instructions, in fact i found it to me quite the educational experiance.

perhaps a few things in the process could be given the option to me done automaticly to those who just want to get it installed.

but all in all when you consider the people that install other distros and setup servers and the like without ACCULY knowing how things work then end up providing worm breeding services and the like i think gentoo acculy helps.

maybe add options for cirtian things to be automaticly configured but dont automate the whole process, it would make gentoo just like any other distro to those who are to lazy to configure it for them selfs and you would then end up with a generic version of gentoo and as we all know gentoo is far from generic.
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