Gentoo not for "newbies"?

senectus · Guru Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534

I'm desperatly seeking a distro to run to, now I'm a windows refugee :-)

I've looked and looked and looked.. and I stumbled apon Gentoo.. From the outside it looks like just what I need/want.

you see I'm a Gamer.
about 80 % of what I do on my home PC is hard core gaming.. and I want to do my hard core gaming in a OS enviroment that doesn't pay terrorist/eat whales/kill dolphins/be cruel to animals.. (Open Source ;-)

)

So I was speaking with some guys, and they all said "nooo Gentoo is too hard on Linux "virgins", go use Lycoris or Mandrake"..

Now I'm not a "virgin".. but I haven't been "all the way" yet either

(hmm might stop using this analogy)

I've just upgraded my system.. and I did it with Linux in mind :
Asus A7N8X Deluxe (figured that its Nvidia's chipset.. and they support linux pretty well don't they?)
Albatron GForce 5600 FX (128mb)
512 ddr ram
2 IDE Hard disks and a DVD and a CDRW (no SATA)

So in Theory my system should work ok..

But reading your site I'm starting to notice that there is no GUI install, and you guys are talking alot about "sources" and othersuch... I don't want to have to rebuild my kernel for new games or new drivers.. is Gentoo going to be the distro for me?
I was willing to pay for a boxed set and support... so seeing as you guys don't do that, I might have to buy some shirts etc.. :-P

Rune · n00b Joined: 07 Oct 2002 Posts: 29 Location: Winnipeg

I personally don't believe gentoo is hard at all. If you print out the x86 install pages off the main page and follow those closely you will have no problems. And any problem you do run into will be either already answered or easily answered on these forums. And you don't have to recompile your kernel for games

slartibartfasz · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:20 am Post subject:

installing gentoo can be as easy as following the installation guide to the letter. however if u run into problems u need at least some basic knowledge about linux to solve the problem in decent time.

once the system is running, maintaince is very painless and fast. and u have to compile the kernel only once. so if u can spare one or two days, i recommend u just try it.

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senectus · Guru Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534

I must say.. I'm VERY impressed with the methods/organization of "GENTOO"

Your documentation levels and the documentation itself is just utterly amazing.
I've never seen such a well organized front end to a Distro..

Kudos all around for those involved..

I'm so Impressed that I feel obliged to give Gentoo my best shot at making it my desktop Distro at home. If that works then I'll be shifting my home Server over to Gentoo and from there the sky is the limit..

Marcus Giles.
Kalgoorlie
Western Australia.

maor · Guru Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 323

my thoughts r different from the others in that thread.
i think that conpiling a kernel for someone who just met linux can be very hard and painfull not to talk about that probaly u have have no knoledge about filesystem strcture or devices , if u know someone who can help with few things while installing i would say go on have a fun otherwise i woild suggest to start from somthing else and after u fill good go on and give gentoo a try.

this is just my 2 cents , anyway good luck with your choice.

zhenlin · Veteran Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1361

If you are addicted to gaming, Linux is not for you, yet. Stick with what you have... Unless you are trying to relieve yourself of your addiction. If the latter is the case, do not install anything from app-games or app-emulation!

senectus · Guru Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534

zhenlin · Veteran Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1361

You mean those particular games... Well, then, you're lucky that they (or an independant contractor) are kind enough to do a Linux port.

Your mileage may vary. Some people have said that their FPS is slower on Linux, some faster.

But if your only criteria is getting away from Windows, and if you have a large budget (doubt it), go for a PowerMac G5. No Windows, top of the line performance (at least for the next 6 months).

rcxAsh · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:11 pm Post subject:

Maybe you could do a dual boot at first to see whether Linux lives up to your gaming needs.

And about the speed, I haven't experienced much because my computer's hardware can't handle most of the newer games, but TuxRacer, OTOH, runs smoothly in Gentoo, but not so nicely in Windows. Perhaps it's because I didn't have 3d acceleration setup properly, or perhaps it was something else... but that's just how it happened on my computer.

And about Gentoo being not for newbies, I suppose it depends. For me, I've only been using Linux for just over four months (still quite a newbie) and I've never touched Mandrake, RedHat, etc. My first distro was Dragon Linux (a Slackware based distro that installed onto a windows partition), then Debian, and now Gentoo. I found that the installations are usually well documented, telling you what to do step by step. And as mentioned in earlier posts, I just want to reiterate that Gentoo has a very nice set of documents. And compiling the kernel? I don't think that it's terribly hard (I had to do this when I was just a week into Linux a few months ago, and I survived!). It may look and sound difficult, and especially look overwhelming when you do a "make menuconfig," but almost every item has a little help blurb that generally explains what it is. (Press SHIFT+/ (the "?") at the selected item)

As I've heard before, Gentoo is good if you're willing to take the time and learn.

just my comments.
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slickquickyb · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:35 pm Post subject:

When i first started messing with linux i used red hat 7.2, because it was supposed to be easier. What i learned is that all the "easy" distros are crammed with fluff that will probably make it end up harder in the long run. When i first installed gentoo i was a little scared but it was worth it. You will learn a lot. Just make sure that you print the install guide ... or have access to another computer so you can look at it. I just recently installed gentoo again ( I hosed my system) It was amazing how much the installation CD improved in 6 monthes. The portage system is worth all the pain in the ass the installation could possible be IMHO. Search the forums for GLIS it is an installer for gentoo that is still in development. It works good from what i have read.

masseya · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:56 pm Post subject:

Moving from Other Things Gentoo as this is not a request for support.
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telex4 · l33t Joined: 21 Sep 2002 Posts: 704 Location: Reading, UK

As someone who's worked with newbies for a while, both on a newbie web site I run and in my local user group, I'd say get both Mandrake and Gentoo. Start by installing Mandrake, leaving at least 6gb free if you can spare it. Then after a few weeks of playing with it, and especially with the shell, start trying to install Gentoo on the spare space.

Don't go for Gentoo straight away - you'll just die of shock

- but it's definitely worth trying after you're accustomed to GNU/Linux. For many (including myself), Gentoo is easier than newbie distros once you've got the hang of GNU/Linux.

masseya · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:36 pm Post subject:

While I do agree with you that it's nice to have some idea what the end result of installing a graphical linux-based environment is like before you start installing Gentoo, I'm not sure that I would say it's better to start out a newbie with something like Mandrake unilaterally. I would say that if you can't be there to help them with some of the more complex configuration stuff, then it would be a good idea to start them out with an easier distro to install. Otherwise, you'll learn a lot more going with Gentoo from the get go and you won't waste time learning distro specific things like DrakeConf or whatever it is they call it. Bear in mind that I haven't really walked many newbies through a gentoo install in person. :oops:

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Nicom · Guru Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 380

The learning curve of gentoo is sort of steep for a newbie without prior linux experience, while distro's like mandrake assume windows experience, gentoo just gives you raw linux. There are some things you may want to consider: Compilling some programs take a long time, so compile them over night or something. Recompilling the kernel isn't so bad, and it allows you to try different stuff to squeeze a little extra performance out of your system. Your system isn't automatically configured, you have to do some things to get good desktop performance(kernel settings, hardisk access settings, and vidcard driver installation etc.). Thats about all the potential turnoffs, but for most, once you have a well tuned system, it really pulls ahead of the competition. Installing programs is really easy, often a simple "emerge some_program" is all it takes, no searching on the web. Maintenance and upgrading is equally easy, and you wont need to install an OS upgrade ever again (unless you want a different filesystem) because you can upgrade compnents as soon as new features or versions are available. So if you have patience and a willingness to learn, then gentoo is great. If you want things to work like they do in windows, and any deviantions will anger you, then mandrake or something else is your best bet. I used mandrake for a year and a half and it's not bad, but I didn't learn shit about linux, and was stuck in windows type mentality.

telex4 · l33t Joined: 21 Sep 2002 Posts: 704 Location: Reading, UK

dyn4mik3 · n00b Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 6

senectus · Guru Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534

Just slightly off topic..

I've never understood why Linux games run with the window manager/desktop in the background..

Linux Window managers to me look and behave very quick.. even on the loading and unloading.. so why don't they just drop that process all together when the game is running in full screen mode.. and when you click exit on the game it cranks up the gui again..

Do I make sense or am I dribbling crudd?

Ian · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:19 am Post subject:

i know exactly why people always think gentoo is hard...

i work (intern) at Brookhaven National Laboratory this summer, and as part of my program, i see two lectures, or tours, each morning. many of the lectures are from the physics department, and many of the people there use Mac OS X, Debian, or Red Hat. I was talking to a particle physics theorist who had just finished a presentation from his laptop, and had noticed linux, and i asked what distro he was using. he replied "Debian, why?" and i mentioned i ran Gentoo, he kinda laughed and said "a bit ambitious?" and that was more or less it.

granted, i'm only 17, and been in the linux world for only a year or so now, but if an experienced Debian user thinks that Gentoo is too hard, what is a perfectly new "newbie" to think? granted, i was too stupid to take heed to the warnings, but now i have a great system, perfectly stable, does everything i want, and as a very nice side effect, completely broke my semi-addiction to gaming.

all in all, i say to try knoppix ( www.knoppix.net if not already mentioned), which allows you to sample linux. if you like that, when you have a few free days, grab the latest Gentoo LiveCD, and start installing, definitely from Stage 1. If you don't know how to do something, come here and bug us, and bug us, and bug us, until you get your system perfect (you'll be here for a while :p). In the end though, it's worth it, as you learn SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more from just installing Gentoo from Stage 1 than you do from using Red Hat or Mandrake. Don't get me wrong, they're great OSes, but I think that if you want to learn Linux, you'd better be using Gentoo or Slackware (or similar).

Oh, and don't think that compiling your own kernel is hard. Everyone told me it was so hard to do, they always avoided it. I followed the installation manual, "rolled my kernel" without realizing what i had just done, and from then on, i've compiled way too many (due to silly mistakes and such

). Linux isn't hard, it just takes a bit of getting used to.

As a last note, if you do in fact go for Gentoo, and drive yourself insane with frustration, feel free to PM me and scream at me for bad advice. On the other hand, a bit of frustration never hurt, and they always say patience is a virttue...

Moled · l33t Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 635

you can get x to load without a desktop if you really want to

iirc running xinit should just give you an x screen + command line from which games can be run if you are really desperate for a few extra fps

then again not having tried this in ages I could be talking rubbish :roll:

senectus · Guru Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534

ok.. thats a really confoozing post..

Is Gentoo good or bad? (from your point of view..)

You seemed to boast about it and slag it in the same breath

Sphynxx · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:12 am Post subject:

Coming from a linux n00b, I have to say that Gentoo is everything that I could have asked for in a learning experience. The Gentoo install alone taught me more than I would have ever learned using MDK or RH. When I've had a problem, I can count on the forums or the IRC chat to be the most helpful solutions I've ever had. The Gentoo community is awesome in ways I will never be able to explain.. and hey, if this complete n00b can pull off having a nix OS up and running, I'm sure you could as well. Simply put, I love Gentoo.

masseya · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:25 am Post subject:

My post here has some crossovers into this realm. HTH.
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if i never try anything, i never learn anything..
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Chickpea · l33t Joined: 03 Jun 2002 Posts: 846 Location: Vancouver WA

I guess it really depends on what kind of computer user you are. If you are patient and really wanting to learn linux then I say go for Gentoo.

I have posted a few times before about how I started with mandrake because it was so supposed to be sooooo easy. And I found that to not be true, because if I did get into trouble, I was not able to figure out what to do to fix it. so I went on the search for learning linux and came across another distro(Linux from Scratch) and then eventually Gentoo which offered me the best of both worlds....I could install packages from source vs RPMs and my system is how I WANT it and I still have some package management via portage

I still dont knwo everything about linux but I learned a lot more in one week with Gentoo then I did with Mandrake for 6 months.

I say go for it. You will really love the experience and this forum group is the best!

Cat

bashir · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:09 am Post subject:

I've mentioned that there is a huge Linux Desktop users boom (here in Germany).

Since the beginning of this year I have had several telephone queries about installing knoppix on their disks. And often the questions: "Is the performance/speed like M$ Win? A friend told me about gentoo - is this the fastest distro I can get?"

So IMHO gentoo is good for a noob if he would like to learn something about Linux, but not good for noobs they would like to migrate, just because it's cool... My experience.

bashir

gsfgf · Veteran Joined: 08 May 2002 Posts: 1266

gentoo is good for newbs. with an easy distro you install it by clicking next and thn once it's done you're at the now what stage. With gentoo you have a pretty good feel for linux once it's working. also, i've found that on easy distros (RH and drake specifically) ther's a lot of stuff it installs that doesn't work. I've never had any trouble like that with gento.
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