View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
lisa Retired Dev
Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 273 Location: York, UK again! Horray!
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
mmealman wrote: | So part of it is genetic |
It isn't genetic, its socialization. Remember the Nike commercials years ago that were encouraging young girls to get into sports?
Women are socialized to do female things and men are socialized to do male things. And it sucks.
Gender shouldn't determine whether or not you can do an activity (reproduction aisde). _________________ Distcc guide
Visit my website
I maintain Distcc, Ccache, Memcached, and some others (i think) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
puggy Bodhisattva
Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1992 Location: Oxford, UK
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you don't mind me asking, how did you manage to avoid this socilization?
Puggy
P.S. Is your avatar just a giant equality symbol or does it have some sort of meaning?
EDIT: Hmm, that has an unexpected overlap with the topic in hand. _________________ Where there's open source , there's a way. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jkcunningham l33t
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 649 Location: 47.49N 121.79W
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: why are gentoo users primarily male ? |
|
|
iwasbiggs wrote: | lisa wrote: | nsahoo wrote: | Just an idle thought - not trying to be sexist here. But, why are real linux users are almost always male ? |
Because women have been socialized to not use computers. |
True. Time to close the topic :). |
Actually, the field of evolutionary psychology disagrees with you on this one. Just read a book by Stephan Pinker, "The Blank Slate" in which he cites a formiddable body of evidence that there are genetic differences which explain most of these social differences.
But anyway, I've been surprised at what I thought was a remarkable number of women in this forum - unless I'm mistaken and some of them are men using female avatars and names? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lisa Retired Dev
Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 273 Location: York, UK again! Horray!
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 5:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
puggy wrote: | P.S. Is your avatar just a giant equality symbol or does it have some sort of meaning? |
Its the logo of the Human Rights Campaign (hrc) http://www.hrc.org - Equality for everyone is a good thing. _________________ Distcc guide
Visit my website
I maintain Distcc, Ccache, Memcached, and some others (i think) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lovechild Advocate
Joined: 17 May 2002 Posts: 2858 Location: Århus, Denmark
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
there's another option.
We may have more female users than we know off - not all users register for the forum, and only the really brave ones tell the rest of us that they are infact female..
I submit Brandy's welcome thread as the proof of this part of the theory.
That being said, I have a gut feeling that girls like to use their computers rather than engaging themselves in a "movement".. I found however that girls are more avid Linux gamers than men - The KDE games pack fx. is a big succes in my home with the women. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mmealman Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 348 Location: Florida
|
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
lisa wrote: | mmealman wrote: | So part of it is genetic |
It isn't genetic, its socialization. Remember the Nike commercials years ago that were encouraging young girls to get into sports?
Women are socialized to do female things and men are socialized to do male things. And it sucks.
Gender shouldn't determine whether or not you can do an activity (reproduction aisde). |
And how did these social aspects come into play in the first place? Did some sort of cabal of women form in proto-industrial times and decide from then on out women like to shop, especially for shoes, and men don't like to talk about their emotions?
Inidivual personality can over-rule genetics, but there are definate genetic differences. There's no social reason to prevent women from skydiving, in fact many of the best jumpers in the world are women. Yet 80-90% of the women you meet in skydiving started because their boyfriend got them into it. Women don't usually wake up one day and say, "Geez, jumping from a perfectly good airplane sounds like fun today". It's the men that think that way.
Men do it because we're subconsciously programmed to try to look cool in an effort to attract a mate. Drag racing, skydiving, being a squid on a motorcycle, or hacking perl 20 hours straight are all ways males try to rise above their peers in an effort to be some sort of alpha male.
It's not ability, it's drive. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madchaz l33t
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 993 Location: Quebec, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
well, this is actualy something a girl who attended school with me told me that might explain it.
She basicaly told me this a few weeks before she droped out of computer science.
Basicaly, women don't think the same way men do. This was actualy proven. Men have better analitical sences. This comes down to understanding how and where you're going to be able to find something that moves, a prey. We have a better logical mind. We focus better on one thing. But we can't devide our attention between things as well.
Women on the other hand have better memory. It used to be to remember where the fruits / roots / picked stuff was to be found. And what was good and what wasn't to eat. Women also multi task better then men, but can't concentrate on one problem as well. Women have better memory and ability to devide there attention. They remember better and can focus on more things at once, but can't concentrate as hard on one as men.
How men and women aproche house work is a great exemple of that. The avarage woman will do 3 or 4 things at once. Cook, clean, do some laundry. Men will do one thing then go to the next. Most will clean, then cook, then do the laundry. They also tend to figure out when they will do what better.
If you want some proff of how men and women don't think the same, try this. Ask a man for directions, and ask a woman. The woman is more likely to give you street names and numbers, where the man is more likely to give you land marks.
Men and women may be equals, but doesn't mean they are the same.
BTW, this was generalisations. There are always exceptions.
And for those who claim I'm sexist because I took women down in my post, you might want to consider what you think is puting them down. I only stated differences, didn't say they were less _________________ Someone asked me once if I suffered from mental illness. I told him I enjoyed every second of it.
www.madchaz.com A small candle of a website. As my lab specs on it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KiTaSuMbA Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2002 Posts: 430 Location: Naples Italy
|
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
lisa wrote: | wilburpan wrote: | lisa wrote: |
"gynocomastia"
|
Not to be picky, but it's "gynecomastia".
Finally putting my med school education to work on this board! |
Med school linux geek? *gasp* How do you find the time! |
That's a 2nd (and I am _currently_ on med school)
Time? Stop sleeping! J/K
No, really... I find that keeping gentoo up and running once installed pretty much what you will need in this life, steals far less time than any other OS I have tried, and that includes windows, not just other distros. Sure, under windows you don't have to compile or hand edit confs but it's a fairly frequent occurence that the automagical crap blows in your face and then you need SERIOUS time to cut loose from their idiocy. Seen it times and times again... Of course, this doesn't apply to usage of the type: win + office + games. But try to drop in the equation pro music apps + stats apps + other specialized mambo-jumbo (genesis or the likes of it, labview, etc.) and see what happens. _________________ Need to flame people LIVE on IRC? Join #gentoo-otw on freenode! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madchaz l33t
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 993 Location: Quebec, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | Of course, this doesn't apply to usage of the type: win + office + games. |
actualy, even just that will screw it up. Just going on the internet is enough of a death sentence for it _________________ Someone asked me once if I suffered from mental illness. I told him I enjoyed every second of it.
www.madchaz.com A small candle of a website. As my lab specs on it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zojas Veteran
Joined: 22 Apr 2002 Posts: 1138 Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
as an anecdote, I have a good friend who happens to be female. She wanted to get a linux disk from me to try out. She told me that she has always been interested in computers, but her father (an engineer!) discouraged her from playing with them when she was younger! so now she rebuilds cars for a living.
lisa wrote: | mmealman wrote: | So part of it is genetic |
It isn't genetic, its socialization. Remember the Nike commercials years ago that were encouraging young girls to get into sports?
Women are socialized to do female things and men are socialized to do male things. And it sucks.
Gender shouldn't determine whether or not you can do an activity (reproduction aisde). |
_________________ http://www.desertsol.com/~kevin/ppc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
alexw n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 5
|
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
oniq wrote: | Though I have heard fabled tales of girls running Linux... Same goes for gaming, you don't see many girls playing computer/console games, but some do. Its just not their thing.
Edit: My girlfriend is an exception to both cases, she plays games and thinks Linux is "neat" and wants to run it at home. |
As oniq says, there are some of us out there that enjoys pc. I got a degree in computing and I am female. Over 75% of the people on my course were male so that may have something to do with it.
I play games and I dont have Linux installed but I am here, and thinking about putting it on one of my pcs!
As for looking after boyf/husband. All I have to do put the laptop on and there you go so that doesnt take me away from the pc at all, infact he encourages me on the pc! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lisa Retired Dev
Joined: 01 Jun 2003 Posts: 273 Location: York, UK again! Horray!
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
alexw wrote: | As oniq says, there are some of us out there that enjoys pc. I got a degree in computing and I am female. Over 75% of the people on my course were male so that may have something to do with it. |
In my classes its about half.
Surprisingly enough, there are 18 women and 16 men are in my Physics class. _________________ Distcc guide
Visit my website
I maintain Distcc, Ccache, Memcached, and some others (i think) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zhenlin Veteran
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1361
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
madchaz wrote: |
If you want some proff of how men and women don't think the same, try this. Ask a man for directions, and ask a woman. The woman is more likely to give you street names and numbers, where the man is more likely to give you land marks. |
Incorrect, try vice versa. Men will give you street names and directions, women will give you landmarks. Some people might give you ICBM addresses instead though...
In my country, there are more women in university then men...
Reasons cited:
* Families send their sons off to foreign campuses
* Boys here are academically uninterested. (Think Hermione vs. Harry)
* Boys don't want to go for tertiary education. (In fact, many people want to stop education after their 9th year)
Taking the Hunter-Gatherer argument:
Women are engineered to socialize and take care of children. Hacking is an individual activity, socialization is only for work, not for fun. Hacking requires concentration, something multi-taskers are not particularly suited for.
Combining the stereotype argument:
If a person does not conform to the stereotype, they are instantly shunned by their "peers" - Not good for social creatures.
So, if we take those assumptions we can say this:
Hackers are people ignore
* Peer pressure
* Peer opinion
* Social disgrace
Assuming that females are far less likely to accept being a social outcast, we come to the conclusion:
* Hackers are mostly male because the probability of social-outcast-acceptance is higher among males.
Disclaimer: I Am Not A Socialogist. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nerdanel Apprentice
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 161 Location: Finland
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm a woman and have been a Gentoo user from since the last fall. (Hitting on me will have 0 chance of success by the way - just a precaution.) I switched from Mandrake because it was too boring and the rpms were annoying. I study IT at a technical university which is male-dominated even though here universities are generally female-dominated.
I know I'm different. I just happened to get logical genes from my father and no one told me girls don't understand math or computers. I think the difference between men and women is real but vastly and artificially grown by our culture. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hypr n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 2 Location: San Jose, California
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: improving the ratio... |
|
|
As chance would have it, I happen to be currently installing gentoo for my little sister, so I can teach her how to run this mysterious "Linux" thing before she heads back to college in the fall.
(My quarter starts nearly a month after her semster, so I'm flying east with her to explore Boston for about 10 days (and set up Gentoo for her on a nice shiny new box that will hopefully be there by the time we are!
So, assuming she enjoys it (and it looks like she will, judging by her reaction to my KDE desktop and other neat Linuxey things), you can add one to your roster of female gentoo users. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KiTaSuMbA Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2002 Posts: 430 Location: Naples Italy
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:26 am Post subject: Re: improving the ratio... |
|
|
hypr wrote: | As chance would have it, I happen to be currently installing gentoo for my little sister, so I can teach her how to run this mysterious "Linux" thing before she heads back to college in the fall.
(My quarter starts nearly a month after her semster, so I'm flying east with her to explore Boston for about 10 days (and set up Gentoo for her on a nice shiny new box that will hopefully be there by the time we are!
So, assuming she enjoys it (and it looks like she will, judging by her reaction to my KDE desktop and other neat Linuxey things), you can add one to your roster of female gentoo users. |
Similar experience with my gf. Studying telecom engineering, she has been _teached_ of most the HOWs and WHYs of Unices' superiority when it comes to networking and intercommunication. However she had been left with the impression that Unix has no place on a desktop. Enters KiTaSuMbA (heheh! ). Flash her with outrageously transparent waimea, kde apps customized to death and speed of operations through a nice Eterm with just enough shade to make out the chars and she wants to know more. Enters Gentoo (let's party! ). Making a fully working gentoo showcase machine out of her laptop except for 3D accel (damn HP and their customized IGP340M radeon!) and showing the really neat tricks (split those windows in konqi, on-the-fly encrypt/decrypt with kgpg, mplayer, k3b to the rescue etc.) and now she might boot windows only for a couple of games.
_________________ Need to flame people LIVE on IRC? Join #gentoo-otw on freenode! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
puggy Bodhisattva
Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1992 Location: Oxford, UK
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
lisa wrote: | alexw wrote: | As oniq says, there are some of us out there that enjoys pc. I got a degree in computing and I am female. Over 75% of the people on my course were male so that may have something to do with it. |
In my classes its about half.
Surprisingly enough, there are 18 women and 16 men are in my Physics class. |
My course (Cybernetics) has to be the worst. For the first 3 years there was a grand total of 1 female. Then in the third year, one re-joined our year from a year in industry, making 2, and in the fourth year MEng part, there are none.
The percentage remains about the same throughout (until the fourth year) as the drop our rate is massive.
Puggy _________________ Where there's open source , there's a way. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
charlieg Advocate
Joined: 30 Jul 2002 Posts: 2149 Location: Manchester UK
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
Two words: multiple orgasm _________________ Want Free games?
Free Gamer - open source games list & commentary
Open source web-enabled rich UI platform: Vexi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jkcunningham l33t
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 649 Location: 47.49N 121.79W
|
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="zhenlin"] madchaz wrote: |
Disclaimer: I Am Not A Socialogist. |
Its obvious you aren't a sociologist: they only have one theory of everything (nurture). Too bad they can't predict anything with it... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dma Guru
Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 437 Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
|
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is supposed to be our escape from women (and other irrationalities). Supposed to be at least... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abraxas l33t
Joined: 25 May 2003 Posts: 814
|
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:05 am Post subject: Re: why are gentoo users primarily male ? |
|
|
jkcunningham wrote: | iwasbiggs wrote: | lisa wrote: | nsahoo wrote: | Just an idle thought - not trying to be sexist here. But, why are real linux users are almost always male ? |
Because women have been socialized to not use computers. |
True. Time to close the topic . |
Actually, the field of evolutionary psychology disagrees with you on this one. Just read a book by Stephan Pinker, "The Blank Slate" in which he cites a formiddable body of evidence that there are genetic differences which explain most of these social differences.
But anyway, I've been surprised at what I thought was a remarkable number of women in this forum - unless I'm mistaken and some of them are men using female avatars and names? |
This is not necessarily true though. This is still a highly debated topic in psychology. The "nature" vs "nurture" argument applies here as it does for most social behaviour. The common consensus for some time now has been that both play a role with an unknown amount of each accounting for social behaviour. As far as I know, the most recent studies have tended to confirm this idea over strictly genetic or social influence. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dreas Guru
Joined: 06 Aug 2003 Posts: 359 Location: Germany
|
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
oniq wrote: | Edit: My girlfriend is an exception to both cases, she plays games and thinks Linux is "neat" and wants to run it at home. |
Oh, lucky one... mine just always complains... but then she also doesn't want to change me... err? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
puggy Bodhisattva
Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1992 Location: Oxford, UK
|
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dreas wrote: | oniq wrote: | Edit: My girlfriend is an exception to both cases, she plays games and thinks Linux is "neat" and wants to run it at home. |
Oh, lucky one... mine just always complains... but then she also doesn't want to change me... err? |
Yeah. She's lying. _________________ Where there's open source , there's a way. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
EasterParade l33t
Joined: 26 Jul 2003 Posts: 938
|
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ehhhm..., hey Puggy, next time I have a problem, which will be real soon as I'm stuck here with a phenomenon I cannot explain, am I allowed to ask You whether You could help me?
My impression now is that the guys here would disapprove of a female intrusion.
Really makes me shudder.
Or should I be of being one such intruder?
Nice to have a friend
transsib
Specs: asus a7n8x deluxe, barton 2500 mhz, 2x256 mb ddram corsair pc 400, geforce 4 ti 4200, plextor cdrecorder, kernel 2.4.20-gentoo-r5, fast, smooth and rocksolid, unfortunately no egoshooters running
P.s.: isn't the subject ot enough to make do with it once and forever? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Corporal Dan n00b
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 32
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|