| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Evangelion
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:50 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| shimage wrote: | | You're not helping me, here; Mostly what I find irritating about the UI is that I can't find a lot of the things I want to change when I want to change them. Maybe this is my problem, maybe not. I thought UI design was supposed to make this sort of thing easy. |
Well, isn't that more of a matter what you are used to? If you are used to program X, program Y might seem difficult and strange, even though in reality there is no real difference between ease of use or functionality.
| Quote: | | What about the other issues I pointed out? Telling me that other people have less problems than I do doesn't really make me feel better. |
I was merely pointing out that OO is not as bad as you make it sound. Yyes, some people will have problems with it, whereas others those glide through it. Some people have problems with MS Word, whereas LaTeX would feel like home to them.
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shimage
n00b
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Evangelion wrote: | | I was merely pointing out that OO is not as bad as you make it sound. Yyes, some people will have problems with it, whereas others those glide through it. Some people have problems with MS Word, whereas LaTeX would feel like home to them. |
Fair enough. I was only pointing out, that you shouldn't say "what's wrong with OO?" if he says he doesn't like it. Clearly he's tried it, and like me, he finds it repulsive. I heard that OO actually floats floats, though, which would have saved me soooo many headaches...
I'm sorry if it came off a bit hard. I'm just tired of people suggesting it when I feel that LaTeX is far and away the way to go, especially if you need structured documents (which means... oh, everything except for the little text files I leave lying around). If you really REALLY need someone to hold your hand through LaTeX there's always LyX and TeXMACS. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralphus Maximus
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 148
Location: At Large
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Camoes wrote: | If i remember correctly, DR-DOS was not even a competitor of MS-DOS, it was the "original" DOS, and MS copied it and sold it to IBM as they searched a cheap OS for their new x86 architecture that was begining to conquer the desktops around the world.
|
When IBM first contacted Microsoft, Bill sent them to Gary Kildall, to get CP/M. Bill said he was a Languages guy, Gary was an OS guy. Gary dropped the ball on IBM and they went back to Bill.
Microsoft bought a version of Q-Dos (Quick and Dirty Dos) and sold that to IBM.
DR-Dos was written by Digital Research, and it was a superior product in many areas.
At one time, there was MS-Dos, DR-Dos, and PC-Dos all competing for the top Dos. There was also the dark horse of the Dos's, Tandy's Dos for their own PC line.
Cheers,
RM
_________________
Hero for hire. Dragons rescued, Virgins slain.
You say "Cheesy" like it's a bad thing!
In a society that is drug infested, violence-wracked and polluted by chemical greed, no one has ever died from an overdose of pornography. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sindre
Guru
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 315
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ralphus Maximus wrote: | | Q-Dos (Quick and Dirty Dos) |
LOL, I always though it was Quick and Dirty OS, which is even funnier. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Unne
l33t
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 616
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't like Windows because it doesn't work. I worked maintaining a lab full of Windows computers, and I swear a complete rebuild of the OS + all apps was required on at least one computer every couple days.
Aside from that, I just don't like the way it works even when it does. XP is probably the best version of Windows I've used, and it might be "stable" by Windows standards, but after the 14th time I got a "STOP 0x000000d1 IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL" fatal reboot-necessary error I about threw my computer out the window. At least Linux tells you what's wrong when it breaks. Windows hides things for no reason whatsoever. It is a major difference in philosophies, as someone said already.
That's not even taking into account their business practices, or that they've been convicted in court of being shysters. I like how you can't even theme Windows XP unless you buy extra software, whereas it used to be free. I like how they may be planning to start to charge for parts of Windows Update. I like how Microsoft Works documents can't be opened by Microsoft Word, and how old versions of Word can't open documents made on new versions of Word, just so people are forced to buy Word again. It's ridiculous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Verteron
Apprentice
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 189
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reasons I like to use Linux:
- I prefer to use an operating system I understand. With Linux I know my Kernel intimately, I know the relationship of the kernel, the shell, X, my DE, the toolkits, and the apps. With Windows, half the time I'm not even sure what's in the kernel, let alone how it's arranged or organised.
- The Linux command line. Need I say more? Try writing a single line that will go through a java source tree, clean it and recompile it while leaving documentation untouched with Windows... (installing cygwin does not count!
 ).
- Remote working. This is a lifesaver for me. I can go to any of my university's linux boxes and immediately use my own programs and files and desktop via ssh. Although achieveable with Windows over VNC, it's slower, less reliable, and when VNC crashes it's time to go home. SSH hasn't crashed on me (yet!)
 . Also the ability to control things like XMMS remotely has been a godsend to me in the past.
- Software. There's just so much good and reasonable quality software out there for Linux at the right price (free!). There's dreadful software too, but often it works well enough when you really need something badly. With Windows, whenever I need a specific tool, fast, it's always shareware or limited demos.
- Viruses. What's a virus? A well configured Linux with a well configured firewall (either manually or the firewall that arrives with the more commercialized distros like RH or Mandy) will do you proud .
- Customisability. With XP I have the choice of three different colours of Luna (which I despise) or Windows classic, or buying Windowblinds at $$$ amount of money. No thanks! But it's not just the interface. With Linux I can tailor my box to suit me exactly, and I know that pretty much no-one else in the world will have exactly the same set-up. Makes my computer feel more "friendly", more like "home".
- Linux has a future. I have no idea what will be in Kernel 3.0 and Gnome 5 in few years time, but at the rate we're going it'll kill the competition once and for all!
But that's my opinion, anyway...
BTW, for a sweet office package try Ximian OOo. It looks better than MS Office and although it still loads slightly slower, once you're in it runs faster IMO. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kihaji
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
To go against the grain:
Reasons why Linux is not it:
1. Ease of installation, both initial and subsequent upgrades. I can, in under and hour, have a working install, fully updated, of Windows XP. The fastest install of linux, Bloatware(Red Hat) 1.5 hours, Speedware(Gentoo) 7 hours. And XP works with my modern hardware, read KT400 + 9700pro + agp 8x. After I install to a base system, if I want to say install a printer, Windows XP 3 minutes, literally. RedHat 15 minutes if CUPS is installed and working and Parallel port is already compiled in, Gentoo 45 minutes needing to download CUPS and LPT port is already compiled in. Advantage Windows XP.
2. Software installation. Windows I pop in the CDRom or double click the exe, check for patches and I am done. Linux, RedHat, download the RPM try to install it, figure out the developer had a drunken revelation that they should use some obscure library because it's l33t, search for that library and install it to find out it needs another version, find that to find out that it isn't compatible with my current setup, cry. Gentoo alleviates this with Portage, and I love it, no complaints on gentoo software install, except maybe the interface of portage on an already running system.
3. Support for modern hardware. Windows XP hands down. Not even a contest.
4. Standard GUI. Windows GUI, even with all its quirks, is 100x more predictable than anything in X under the 5 billion managers out there. TWM is not an acceptable standard GUI, if you want to say that then I cry.
5. Command line, hands down Linux. I wish Windows had the command line capabilities of linux. (I miss DOS).
6. Acceptable Development environment. I code, a lot, and nothing comes close to the capabilities of VS.Net, and yes I used Emacs and VI and Kdevelop. VS.Net + Visual Assist will make you cry at how much more productive you can be. I wish there was an IDE environment that came close that integrates gcc/g++.
7. Customization, although linux takes this one, it does it so dubiously. The kernel configuration methods are ass. There is no logical layout to the menu's, and the description of each is either crap or non-existant. Can be easily fixed with minimal effort but no one does.
8. Plug and play/Hardware detection - Windows XP hands down. Sorry linux.
9 ACPI - It's been around now for what, 5+ years and its still buggy? Windows XP all the way on it.
10 The OSS community - Negative to linux. While I love the idea of OSS and what it is capable of doing, it is currently cursed. Cursed with as many ego's as there are developers who are more concerned with pushing their way rather than the project. Schitzo project leaders who change midstream, to people who fork projects over personal disputes, which leads to community and software chasms. One of the biggest arguments for OSS is "there are a thousand eyes looking at your code so it will be less buggy", but it isn't. Also the lack of leadership in OSS is hurting it, software doesn't succeed because it has a team of the most talented coders on it, which OSS definately has, but because those coders are following the vision of 1 individual towards 1 goal. Currently that isn't the case, when it does go that way is when most OSS projects fail, because of the egos.
I WANT to use linux as my primary OS, something more than a past-time to play with, but I refuse to take a step back in exploitation of my hardwares capabilities by the OS, and currently that is what switching to Linux would be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ebrostig
Bodhisattva
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 3152
Location: Orlando, Fl
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think the main thing about people trying to move from Office to OpenOffice is that there are features in MS Office that is not yet found in OO. The good thing is that the 80/20 rule is still valid, i.e 80% of all users only use 20% of the features, hence for 80% of the users (probably more like 95% today), OO has all the features you need.
I don't like MS Windows because I don't know what it does. It also phones home to to MS with information about your machine at various times. MS has a lousy update system and their patch release policy is horrible. Their infirite wisdom made us all belong to DLL-hell, i.e App A is installed and installs a new version of library.dll, apps B is then installed and overwrites Apps A's version of library.dll with it's own version, result: Apps A stops working. It can be a real bithc to track down sometimes.
Also, for the more serious computing needs, Linux beats Windows flat out, see Oracle 9i on Linux vs. Windows 2000 Server, shows Linux is 34% faster overall than Windows 2000.
Erik
_________________
'Yes, Firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shm
Advocate
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 2380
Location: Atlanta, Universe
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kihaji wrote: |
9 ACPI - It's been around now for what, 5+ years and its still buggy? Windows XP all the way on it.
|
According to kernel hackers, ACPI on Linux (and BSD's) is "buggy" because of Microsoft poor implementation of it in WindowsXP. Microsoft did not follow correct standards with it, and as such, hardware vendors had to write around bugs in XP. It's very hard to try to follow Microsoft's incorrect implementation of ACPI to-the-teeth, especially without any technical documents on it. This is especially true because all of the first implementations of ACPI on Linux followed the ACPI standard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Verteron
Apprentice
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 189
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
To address some of your points:
| Kihaji wrote: | | 1. Ease of installation, both initial and subsequent upgrades. I can, in under and hour, have a working install, fully updated, of Windows XP. The fastest install of linux, Bloatware(Red Hat) 1.5 hours, Speedware(Gentoo) 7 hours. And XP works with my modern hardware, read KT400 + 9700pro + agp 8x. After I install to a base system, if I want to say install a printer, Windows XP 3 minutes, literally. RedHat 15 minutes if CUPS is installed and working and Parallel port is already compiled in, Gentoo 45 minutes needing to download CUPS and LPT port is already compiled in. Advantage Windows XP. |
Erm, correct me if I'm wrong (!!), but Windows XP isn't installed from source code. Of course a Gentoo install will take longer. Red Hat installs on my machine in well under an hour, WinXP (counting everything from start to finish, not just the 39 minutes file copy) takes around that.
| Quote: | | Software installation. Windows I pop in the CDRom or double click the exe, check for patches and I am done. Linux, RedHat, download the RPM try to install it, figure out the developer had a drunken revelation that they should use some obscure library because it's l33t, search for that library and install it to find out it needs another version, find that to find out that it isn't compatible with my current setup, cry. Gentoo alleviates this with Portage, and I love it, no complaints on gentoo software install, except maybe the interface of portage on an already running system. |
Fair point, although I don't think it's quite as hard as you make out. In the vast majority of cases "./configure && make && make install" is all you need to do.
| Quote: | | 3. Support for modern hardware. Windows XP hands down. Not even a contest. |
This isn't the fault of Linux or the product of Microsoft's hard work. If hardware manufacturers woke up to Linux we'd all have support for modern hardware too. Things are begining to change (take graphics cards as an example), but having to reverse engineer stuff does take time, whereas a hardware company will have a Windows driver for the new version out within 5 minutes.
| Quote: | | 4. Standard GUI. Windows GUI, even with all its quirks, is 100x more predictable than anything in X under the 5 billion managers out there. TWM is not an acceptable standard GUI, if you want to say that then I cry. |
Excuse me, but who the fuck uses TWM? But admittedly the toolkits do look and work differently. Then again with XP, half your apps use the theme engine and the other half don't. Problem is that with Windows you're locked into a single toolkit, effectively. But there are examples of apps that don't do this - consider Swing (Java) apps under Windows. Consider that Microsoft themselves don't use their own toolkit on Office or Encarta (they look different to the rest of Windows). Consider that they change the file dialogs with every single release of the operating system. With Linux no single company has the power to say "thou shalt install our toolkit apps on our desktop environment or else". But it can be done. Check out the Ximian Desktop Project.
| Quote: | | 5. Command line, hands down Linux. I wish Windows had the command line capabilities of linux. (I miss DOS). |
DOS never had the command line capabilities of UNIX-style operating systems. You can still use the command line under Windows and it ain't much to write home about.
| Quote: | | 6. Acceptable Development environment. I code, a lot, and nothing comes close to the capabilities of VS.Net, and yes I used Emacs and VI and Kdevelop. VS.Net + Visual Assist will make you cry at how much more productive you can be. I wish there was an IDE environment that came close that integrates gcc/g++. |
They do exist. I believe Borland has put out some Visual interface designers. Any real coder under Windows will be using C++ anyway, and even Visual Studio has a crap RAD form designer for that.
| Quote: | | 7. Customization, although linux takes this one, it does it so dubiously. The kernel configuration methods are ass. There is no logical layout to the menu's, and the description of each is either crap or non-existant. Can be easily fixed with minimal effort but no one does. |
Windows doesn't allow any customisation whatsoever. Average users under Red Hat or Mandrake will never have to touch menuconfig.
| Quote: | | 8. Plug and play/Hardware detection - Windows XP hands down. Sorry linux. |
Kudzu.
| Quote: | | 9 ACPI - It's been around now for what, 5+ years and its still buggy? Windows XP all the way on it. |
Fair point, although perhaps if the chipset manufacturers would write Linux drivers themselves (see above...).
I'm not one of these people who will go around saying "Linux > Windows" until the cows come home. I'd go so far as to say that for a total computerphobic Linux is not a good choice. But for a lot of people who aren't afraid of messing with their system from time to time it's a much better system to run than Microsoft's offerings. Five years from now I think everyone will be surprised at how far Linux will grow. I just want to jump on the bandwagon now, to say I was there from the start of the revolution . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ebrostig
Bodhisattva
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 3152
Location: Orlando, Fl
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kihaji: I think the right distro for you is Lindows. Take a look at LindowsOS 4.0 reviewed. You want a Joe User system, where you don't have to activate your brain, nor have to understand what you are doing. This is fair enough, but don't compare Linux with Windows, because Linux can do heaps more than Windows have ever could. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a difference in design philosophy.
Erik
_________________
'Yes, Firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiatello
Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 321
Location: knoxvegas, tn, AMERIKA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JackelPDW wrote: | | mlang wrote: | | edit: Are you the same JackalPDW that used to post at Pie's? |
Yep!  Although I don't recognize your name?
Well, I am a newcomer to linux, and have been frustrated trying to get things to work, but I have merely attributed that to my lack of linux experience. Is there not anywhere though that offers a FAQ for linux? A website with a bunch of tutorials? It's really frustrating trying to search forums for answers on how to do things, but o well...
And regarding Microsoft, mahellma pointed out what I was trying to talk about.
| Quote: | | The only working OS that MS has released is Win2k and it's not that good either. If I pay 500 euro for a OS I expect it to work. |
I personally use XP Pro for all my gaming/networking needs, and it runs just fine. I never get any errors, and I've had slowdowns in both Linux and Windows. And while their business practices may be angering to the competition, they are common tactics used in a capitalistic market. Killing a better product by marketing and cuthroat tactics is nothing new to our system(Sony BETA tapes anyone?).
From the short time I have been here, and for the little amount my opinion will count to y'all, it would seem Linux will fail, or at least hobble along if they do not adapt to Microsoft, and then branch out. I have had such a nightmare trying to get a good word processor onot my Gentoo system. I have Office XP, but aparently Wine won't take that, so I'm stuck with two very sub par Office Suites. As much as people want to ignore it, MS has some of the best products on the market. If the Linux community won't make their stuff interoperable to MS's standards, then they will fail...
Yea, Microsoft might be some "Big Brother" or "Evil Empire" to the bleeding heart radicals out there looking for some injustice to cry out against, but it would seem to me that the Microsoft bashing around here prooves to only hurt your chances at competing with Ms. If everyone is always bashing them, then you are bound to think everything they do is wrong. Then, you have missed valuable lessons from a computer company that made it's start just like Linux did...a bunch of computer programmers working out of their basement who had a good idea, and ran all the way into history with it.
Well, I know this post will probably get dismissed as another angry linux noob, I just felt needed to get that off my chest. I didn't really feel welcome here with all this MS bashing, considering it has worked for me, and I prefer Windows over Linux. Am I a retard because I don't know how to compile all this crap just to install a USB mouse? Dunno, just seems kinda shooting yourself in the foot with this anti MS attitude, when you will probably turn away some potential linux converts by the anti-ms vibe... |
ummm have you ever heard of open-office?
thats one of the bes tlinux work suties ever |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PowerFactor
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: out of it
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Verteron wrote: | | Quote: | | 4. Standard GUI. Windows GUI, even with all its quirks, is 100x more predictable than anything in X under the 5 billion managers out there. TWM is not an acceptable standard GUI, if you want to say that then I cry. |
Excuse me, but who the fuck uses TWM? |
I actually kinda like TWM now that I've actually played with it a little. I might actually be using it if it could handle xvideo properly. Totaly useless comment I know, just thought I'd throw that in there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EzInKy
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1742
Location: Kentucky
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Why the hate for Microsoft? |
|
|
| JackelPDW wrote: |
I was just wondering what is that little thing inside of y'alls brain that makes you so against MS?
|
Freedom, choice, and privacy are the first "little" things that popped into my head. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kihaji
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ebrostig wrote: | Kihaji: I think the right distro for you is Lindows. Take a look at LindowsOS 4.0 reviewed. You want a Joe User system, where you don't have to activate your brain, nor have to understand what you are doing. This is fair enough, but don't compare Linux with Windows, because Linux can do heaps more than Windows have ever could. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a difference in design philosophy.
Erik |
I don't want Lindows, I don't want a "no-brain" linux version. I have been using a version of linux now for ~8 years. Moving from Slackware to Gentoo. I am very comfortable in a command line based OS and am very adept at looking at and modifying code. Thats not the point. The point is I shouldn't have to. Linux as a kernel and an OS has been around long enough that it should "just work", but it doesn't, and it is what is keeping linux down, installing an OS to a workable level should not be a chore or so neutered (Lindows) that it isn't worth it.
Also, Windows doesn't "phone home". Thats a myth. I account for every bit that leaves my home network and not once in over a year has XP "phoned home".
And DLL has been all but eliminated with XP/2k.
Verton: Of course XP isn't installed from source, but method and source of installation is part of ease. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, I find merits in both methods.
"Library hell", as I call it on linux, is just as bad as DLL hell ever was. You've been spoiled by the wonderful wonderful Portage system. (I really do love the portage system.) If you doubt that, look at some of the dependencies on the software you install, then look through the posts on this board and see how many are "xxx wont work without xxx, even though I have old xxx". Portage(and apt) are a great step forward for linux.
I agree that hardware companies should wake up to linux, but the community needs to give them a reason to. A random company, say Nvidia, starts to put out linux drivers and they get chastised because they decide that they want to do it closed source. Why as another random hardware manufacturer would I want to support a community like that? It be like you giving a homeless person a sandwich and they throw it back and demand steak.
A single unifying toolkit is what I should have said for the GUI part. It would be incredibly helpful for developers to know exactly what their gui's are going to look like and act like. Maybe then they will actually think about it instead of the ass we have now.
Intellisense > anything on a linux system, but I am working to alleviate that.
And I consider Red Hat and Mandrake in the same league as Windows. Usuable OS's that are usable, but HUGE flaws(bloat, slowness). As for GUI customabilty, I run litestep...
shm : ACPI was around LONG before WindowsXP, that argument is bunk.
As for MS being evil, maybe. They have used strongarm tactics in the past, and have used shady practices and for that they should, and are (trying) being punished. Would their products have the market saturation if they would have "played fair", as fair as the business world can be anyway? Probably not. Are their products horrible? Not by a long shot, except Bob that was ass. They have pushed innovation, whether it be by them and their "accept and extend" policy, or by them pushing the little guy to come up with that killer app to either eat at MS or get bought out by them. The industry is where it is today in a large part because of MS. Be it their bloat pushing hardware developers to constantly look for that new Hard drive, or CPU, or memory chip faster to get an edge. Or their accept and extend attitude pushing new technologies, that yes they probably stole, to the forefront quicker. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shimage
n00b
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| chiatello wrote: | ummm have you ever heard of open-office?
thats one of the bes tlinux work suties ever |
I should just shoot myself right now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jimboberella
Guru
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 358
Location: Brisbane/Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I tend find that the people who ask "Why do you dislike Microsoft?" have not actually paid for their installed copy of the Microsoft product, and so cannot relate to the problem as they have to finincial attachment to it.
Having said that your time is money,and I would bet that most of the Gentoo community spend plenty, tweaking and such. Perhaps even more time than an average windows user, spends reinstalling, upgrading and patching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PowerFactor
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: out of it
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kihaji wrote: | | 1. Ease of installation, both initial and subsequent upgrades. I can, in under and hour, have a working install, fully updated, of Windows XP. The fastest install of linux, Bloatware(Red Hat) 1.5 hours, Speedware(Gentoo) 7 hours. |
Huh? Yea gentoo takes a long time to install. But for me a redhat install takes <30min. XP takes >1h just to install, and I still need to install an office suit, updates, etc. after that.
| Kihaji wrote: | | I agree that hardware companies should wake up to linux, but the community needs to give them a reason to. A random company, say Nvidia, starts to put out linux drivers and they get chastised because they decide that they want to do it closed source. Why as another random hardware manufacturer would I want to support a community like that? It be like you giving a homeless person a sandwich and they throw it back and demand steak. |
I don't think that is at all fair view of that issue. For every loudmouth that blasts Nvidia for releasing closed source driver( yea I wish they were open source too) there are [insert random number here] linux users who go out and buy an Nvidia card because those drivers are avaiable. And that's what matters to Nvdia, as well as leverage against MS. Otherwise why would Nvidia have persisted at it for so long and why is Ati now making an attempt to one up them in that area? It has been said many times but I guess I'll repeat it. The main reason for lack of linux drivers is lack of users. It's a chicken and egg problem unfortunately.
| Kihaji wrote: | | shm : ACPI was around LONG before WindowsXP, that argument is bunk. |
And what about ACPI in previous versions of windows? Without proof in either direction his argument sounds just as valid as yours to me.
| Kihaji wrote: | | As for MS being evil, maybe. They have used strongarm tactics in the past,... |
Past? Have you not heard of Liscensing 6? Strongarming competitors is bad enough, but a company that can get away with strongarming it's customers strikes me as really dangerous. Especially when its customers include most of this country and several others. Of course it remains to be seen if they actually increase their profits, or have shot themselves in the foot, over the long term with that.
| Kihaji wrote: | | Are their products horrible? Not by a long shot, except Bob that was ass. |
Come on now. Granted win2k is pretty good (IMHO) as a desktop os, and I haven't used XP much. But I shudder to think of the days when I had to accomplish "real work" with that house of cards that was win98. And have you forgotten that sham upgrade(downgrade?) they called ME.
I don't "hate" MS or think they are "evil". I just don't trust them. I think it all started when I discovered the the "with USB suport" printed on my win95 cd was a bald faced lie. Had to buy win98 to get my scanner working. And it wasn't just the scanner drivers. The os could see the usb controller but not the root hub or anything past it. then I was generally frustrated with win98 crashing all the time. I decided not to get 2k, I would hold out for "Wistler". But then the news about product activation hit and I felt betrayed yet again. I went and bought a copy of 2k because I still couldn't effectively use linux for my purposes. Even though pa has turned out not to be quite as bad as was first thought I'm still determined not to buy XP. So far I've succeeded. Thanks to finding gentoo, linux has been my primary desktop os for the past year. And my old 2k install still suffices for those, increasingly rare, occasions when I "need" windows.
And for all you OOo zealots out there. Not to disparage the hard work of those developers, OOo has come a long way. And I think there is great potential there. But, OOo has caused nearly as much damage to my keyboard and desk as windows, in far less time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schism39401
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
I use linux because it challenges me on a daily basis. I can honestly say I learn something new every day. With windows...umm...if you know 3.1 you know XP. XP just has more eye candy. My gentoo server has not crashed because system errors yet...now user errors thats another story I see daily attempts to get into my server using windows exploits, and all I can do is laugh....personally I will use linux as my main o/s forever. And I also hate reboots
| Code: | | /etc/init.d/service restart |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Evangelion
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kihaji wrote: | To go against the grain:
Reasons why Linux is not it:
1. Ease of installation, both initial and subsequent upgrades. I can, in under and hour, have a working install, fully updated, of Windows XP. The fastest install of linux, Bloatware(Red Hat) 1.5 hours, Speedware(Gentoo) 7 hours. And XP works with my modern hardware, read KT400 + 9700pro + agp 8x. After I install to a base system, if I want to say install a printer, Windows XP 3 minutes, literally. RedHat 15 minutes if CUPS is installed and working and Parallel port is already compiled in, Gentoo 45 minutes needing to download CUPS and LPT port is already compiled in. Advantage Windows XP. |
My experiences don't support your findings. Installing fresh W2K on my computer 800MHz Duron) takes about... 20-30 minutes. With Linux I have installed SuSE on the same machine in about the same time. Only difference is that with W2K I have to install all the drivers, apps etc. etc. after the installation of the OS. And that could take 1-2 hours. Now, after the SuSE-installation, I had fully functional OS with all the apps already installed. I could start working right away.
| Quote: | | Gentoo alleviates this with Portage, and I love it, no complaints on gentoo software install, except maybe the interface of portage on an already running system. |
Have you thought about using one of the Portage-GUI's?
| Quote: | | 4. Standard GUI. Windows GUI, even with all its quirks, is 100x more predictable than anything in X under the 5 billion managers out there. TWM is not an acceptable standard GUI, if you want to say that then I cry. |
This is a strength of Linux, not a weakness. Linux doesn't tell you that "This is the GUI you must use! If you don't like it, well tough luck!". You can choose the GUI that you prefer.
| Quote: | | 7. Customization, although linux takes this one, it does it so dubiously. The kernel configuration methods are ass. There is no logical layout to the menu's, and the description of each is either crap or non-existant. Can be easily fixed with minimal effort but no one does. |
So why don't you do it then?
| Quote: | | 8. Plug and play/Hardware detection - Windows XP hands down. Sorry linux. |
Ever tried Knoppix?
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog
Last edited by Evangelion on Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
erwan
Apprentice
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Tokyo
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sindre wrote: | | Ralphus Maximus wrote: | | Q-Dos (Quick and Dirty Dos) |
LOL, I always though it was Quick and Dirty OS, which is even funnier. |
This is right, Quick and Dirty Operating System. MS rename it to DOS for Direct Operating System.
Then when MS-DOS became strong in market shares Digital Research changed the name CP/M to DR-DOS to show that it is the same kind of product. It was renamed Caldera Open DOS when it was bought by Caldera, and from the beginning it was far better from MS-DOS. 6 virtual terminals (like Linux in console mode), no stupid memory limitations...
_________________
See me on Jabber: erwan@im.loisant.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Evangelion
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| erwan wrote: | | sindre wrote: | | Ralphus Maximus wrote: | | Q-Dos (Quick and Dirty Dos) |
LOL, I always though it was Quick and Dirty OS, which is even funnier. |
This is right, Quick and Dirty Operating System. MS rename it to DOS for Direct Operating System. |
Disk Operating System
_________________
My tech-blog | My other blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mystilleef
Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 561
Location: Earth
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:29 pm Post subject: KOffice |
|
|
If Open Office doesn't cut it for you, and Star Office is too blunt for you, why don't you try KOffice. KOffice is truly unique in that Kword is frame based, and the only word processor I know that is at that. It has a formular editor which seems to be a gripe of yours with Open Office and it is fast. You can save your documents in html, text, rich text and currently PDF, depending on the version you are using.
It's interface is simple and straight forward and it has a mini tutorial will get you acclimitized to it's new culture. KOffice comes with a dozen of packages and it can open Microsoft proprietary formated documents, with the exception of excell and perhaps powerpoint. Finally, it is faster than Open Office and it is clearly and underated underdog. In my opinion, it is easier to use than Open Office and in many respects better.
Unfortunately, KOffice is the new kid on the block so it is not as mature as its older cousins are. The frame based feature of Kword also makes it a basic desktop publisher. I think it will work wonders on you thesis, if you accept its difference, acknowledge its immaturity, and get rid of the Microsoft Windows complex plaguing your mind.
Regards,
Mystilleef
_________________
simple, sleek and sexy text editor for gnome
"My logic is undeniable."
Last edited by Mystilleef on Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DefconAlpha
Apprentice
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 151
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject: Why do we oppose Microsoft? |
|
|
BECAUSE OUR COMPUTERS ARE NOT APPLIANCES FOR SIMPLETONS!
_________________
In the end, the love you get is equal to the love you make
--John Lennon & Paul McCartney (The End - Abbey Road, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shimage
n00b
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: KOffice |
|
|
| Mystilleef wrote: | If Open Office doesn't cut it for you, and Star Office is too blunt for you, why don't you try KOffice. KOffice is truly unique in that Kword is frame based, and the only word processor I know that is at that. It has a formular editor which seems to be a gripe of yours with Open Office and it is fast. You can save your documents in html, text, rich text and currently PDF, depending on the version you are using.
It's interface is simple and straight forward and it mini tutorial will get you acclimitized to it's new culture. KOffice comes with a dozen of packages and it can open Microsoft proprietary format documents, with the exception of excell and perhaps powerpoint. Finally, it is faster than Open Office and it is clearly and underated underdog. In my opinion, it is easier to use than Open Office and in many respects better.
Unfortunately, KOffice is the new kid on the block so it is not as mature as its older cousins are. The frame based feature of Kword also makes it a basic desktop publisher. I think it will work wonders on you thesis, if you accept its difference, acknowledge it's immaturity, and get rid of the Microsoft Windows complex plaguing your mind.
Regards,
Mystilleef |
Is this in reference to me? I don't have a Microsoft complex. In fact, my relatives are probably thoroughly annoyed at my "Linux is better than Windows" rants.
My bitch is with the people that suggest in some way that OpenOffice is a cure-all for MS Office compatibility. In that regard, KOffice is not likely to be what I am looking for either. Thanks for the advice and suggestion, but it isn't quite what I need. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
