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| Who should run Gentoo? |
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[ 6 ] |
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[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 69 |
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psomas
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 212
Location: Greece
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 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ryker wrote: | | oldefortran wrote: | | bmichaelsen wrote: | | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/54138 |
That was very sad to read 
I can't help feel a little worried over the future of Gentoo. |
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html
Here's a chance to make things better. |
i don't know if it will make thinkgs better or worse... :S
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oldefortran
l33t
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What is the problem, really? |
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ryker
Guru
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 412
Location: Portage, IN
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| psomas wrote: | | ryker wrote: | | oldefortran wrote: | | bmichaelsen wrote: | | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/54138 |
That was very sad to read
I can't help feel a little worried over the future of Gentoo. |
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html
Here's a chance to make things better. |
i don't know if it will make thinkgs better or worse... :S |
I don't see how he could make things worse. He started Gentoo, he continues to help when he has time, and he still seems to truly care what happens to Gentoo and the Gentoo community.
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psomas
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 212
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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yes,but, even if he honestly cares about gentoo and its future,what if his comeback triggers flamewars between the devs and things get even worse?... :S
anyway,i hope for the best...
and i think, that it's up to the devs to decide whether to accept the offer or not, and whether this will really benefit gentoo...
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I see some nasty things in the horizon...
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bmichaelsen
Veteran
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 1277
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| psomas wrote: | | yes,but, even if he honestly cares about gentoo and its future,what if his comeback triggers flamewars between the devs and things get even worse?... :S |
Although it was not visible there is already so much politics and flamewars that gentoo is currently dead-in-water strategy-wise. Not sinking, not moving either.
So its basically some decisive action needed to revive gentoo and to give it an direction. Daniels offer forces a decision: Either his way or someone else has to take responsibility. Mind you, the foundation ceased to exist and even then nobody took initiative. If somebody does _not_ want Daniel to take the lead, he now has to provide a better solution - fast. Good Thing(tm).
Last edited by bmichaelsen on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blubbi
Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 564
Location: Halle (Saale), Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ryker wrote: | | oldefortran wrote: | | bmichaelsen wrote: | | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/54138 |
That was very sad to read
I can't help feel a little worried over the future of Gentoo. |
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html
Here's a chance to make things better. |
I would go for it! Lets see what happens the deadline is not that far in the future... I hope the best for gentoo.
(I was looking around for other distros in case gentoo dies... but I couldn't find anything appropriated... GENTOO is UNIQUE)
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bmichaelsen
Veteran
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 1277
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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ryker
Guru
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 412
Location: Portage, IN
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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WTF? Why are things like changing the Gentoo Newsletter name, frequency, email addresses, mailing lists, and irc channels not up for some kind of vote? Shouldn't something that major at least be discussed and suggestions taken from the Gentoo community?
Don't get me wrong. I'm very glad that someone stepped up to work on the project and get things going again, but where's the approval structure for making major changes like this?
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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--
Last edited by 96140 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ryker
Guru
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 412
Location: Portage, IN
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Obviously, most things don't require a community vote or even discussion. I just think that major changes to the newsletter that is the primary source of Gentoo related news for folks deserves some sort of consensus for major changes like that.
I agree, more people need to help out and submit articles. But it is not just a lack of articles that has stopped the GWN since Oct 15th. I've submitted many articles and helped out where I can. I even xml'fied the last GWN that never even got published and is still sitting there. I have no idea why it just didn't even get published.
I have to admit, I didn't realize that much of the gathering of data for the GWN is done by hand. I thought scripts were already written for that. I'll do some reading and see if I can help out with a script to automate some stuff.
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe in a periodical newsletter. Since most of the issues are either lack of content or time, I suggest - again - publishing the newsletter as soon as there is something to say. More or less like Sourceforge newsletter. I don't mind it be non-regular or non-periodical; what matters to me is the contents.
For instance, the pace at which bugs decreased was quite interresting. Now why not talk a little about KDE4, which still draws a great deal of attention?...
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Wow that was pleasant. You seem to be blissfully unaware of the thousands of bug-fixes provided by your users over the years. Yeah I know devs are users too, but you made the distinction. Maybe you guys wouldn't have so much stress if you trusted your users as a group a little more. You sure as hell ask a lot of trust from us in installing software, which we collectively know to be bugged and we collectively try to help with, and for which effort we collectively get insulted in no uncertain terms.
Guess what sunshine? We're here voluntarily too. If you really dislike your users that much, either take a break cos you are burning out or retire. |
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oldefortran
l33t
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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What nightmorph wrote makes sense.
The dev's should not have to ask the permission of the users. If they mess things up, there will be a Xentoo (or something) that will fork out of Gentoo and Gentoo will have about 20 users in the future. I'm sure the devs are greatfull for all the feedback, and bugfixes, but that should not make the devs marionettes of the "user group".
To ask the devs to have a poll about the name of the newsletter, thats not a good suggestiion.
I don't know exactly how the internals of Gentoo works, someone told about a foundation that is no more. As long as there is an very efficient portage system and we have chroot. What else is there to do woth Gentoo than updating ebuilds with new versions and security stuff? Fancy installers, configuration tools (excluding the simple tools that comes with portage), and so on, that can be done by anyone. That's perhaps not a good thing to put in the hands of the Gentoo devs? Perhaps someone else can do it better?
The same thing about the newsletter. Perhaps the users can do that. No need for a dedicated dev?
What about someone (a dev, or a dev-wannabee) puts together a submission system where user can contribute articles in an easy fashion (unless there already is such a system). Then appoint one to be the "editor" that has the power to send out something whenever there's enough stuff to tell about? Users can also read articles in the "queue" and comment until they are sent out.
To have a weekly schedule with few articles, that's very counterproducutive, it's not fun, just a burden.
Just some ideas for all the sunshines here  |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54550
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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There is a mail alias for the GWN. Its listed in every GWN to be used for feedback, contributions, ideas, thanks, etc.
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that GWN is missing is a link to forum. I think every GWN article should have a link to a thread in a separate Gentoo News Forum. This would attract more discussion and creates better integration between homepage and forums.
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: screenie rocks! |
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| ryker wrote: | | Obviously, most things don't require a community vote or even discussion. I just think that major changes to the newsletter that is the primary source of Gentoo related news for folks deserves some sort of consensus for major changes like that. |
Given that it's totally non-technical I have to agree with you.
| Quote: | | I agree, more people need to help out and submit articles. But it is not just a lack of articles that has stopped the GWN since Oct 15th. I've submitted many articles and helped out where I can. I even xml'fied the last GWN that never even got published and is still sitting there. I have no idea why it just didn't even get published. |
Beats me, but I just had to reply and say thanks: screenie is FAB!
| Quote: | | I have to admit, I didn't realize that much of the gathering of data for the GWN is done by hand. I thought scripts were already written for that. I'll do some reading and see if I can help out with a script to automate some stuff. |
I'll gladly help with any bash (no time to work with py as I have major C code to work on this year); we hang in #friendly-coders (i'm igli.)
@oldefortran No one said the ebuild devs had to organise it ;) Your ideas are sound but whenever user input is mooted for an area that is currently a dev's responsibility (especially if it's democratic) it always gets shot down (that i have seen at any rate.)
Thanks for making me laugh though, I needed that, sunshine ;)
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update - "a most excellent portage wrapper"
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arth1
n00b
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| nightmorph wrote: | | Why should what we do be approved by the users? We're the developers. |
And this sums up pretty succinctly what's wrong with Gentoo these days. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Latest Gentoo Newsletter |
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Well it appears we're gonna get a GMN (Gentoo Monthly Newsletter.) In the meantime, for all you News addicts, as made by ryker there's:
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20071022-newsletter.xml
Disclaimer: not considered official for some reason. Why it could not just be put out as it was, is beyond me.
Additionally, for those after a bit of humour in these awful times (ohNoes we don't have any trustees-- wasn't this why we were joining the Software Freedom Association? ;) there's Not the GWN.
Honestly guys, chill out. Trustees gave up last year afaik.
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| creaker wrote: | | systemd. It is a really ass pain |
update - "a most excellent portage wrapper"
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Kasumi_Ninja
Veteran
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1825
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| arth1 wrote: | | nightmorph wrote: | | Why should what we do be approved by the users? We're the developers. |
And this sums up pretty succinctly what's wrong with Gentoo these days. |
I disagree, you can't expect that devs bow for every whim of the enduser. Endusers have basically three options:
1) Choose a distro that fits their purpose better
2) Become a contributing user and become active on bugzilla to realize your suggestions.
3) Become a Gentoo dev and focus on the area you deem important
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bunder
Bodhisattva
Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 5937
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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merged one post.
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banned from #gentoo since sept 2017 |
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arth1
n00b
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Aniruddha wrote: | | arth1 wrote: | | nightmorph wrote: | | Why should what we do be approved by the users? We're the developers. |
And this sums up pretty succinctly what's wrong with Gentoo these days. |
I disagree, you can't expect that devs bow for every whim of the enduser. |
No, I expect that devs listen to them, and respect their opinion as as much worth as their own.
Sometimes more valuable, because the devs might not be able to (or interested in) production use, and the unique problems and challenges related to that.
What we don't need are devs who look down on the users instead of seeing them as a valuable resource. If hundreds of users scream "don't take out feature XXX and replace it with the incompatible YYY, because we require XXX in production!", a developer that refuses to even listen and see things from a user's point of view is an arrogant moron, which Gentoo IMNSHO can do better without.
As for a user's right to jump ship, yes, that's what many users are doing now, and it's not a good thing for Gentoo. Nor the users. Also remember that the devs are supposed to work for the Gentoo community, and not just leech on it for marketing their personal pet projects. And working for the Gentoo community means treating the Gentoo community as your employer. So what if it's unpaid? You should still be held accountable to a minimum of standards, including common courtesy and decency. The rudeness and arrogance shown by a self-important group of Gentoo devs seriously hurts Gentoo right now.
I think it's high time to eat humble pie for some of the more vitriolic and destructive dev-czars, and make it easier for friendly developers to join. |
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snIP3r
l33t
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 853
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ryker wrote: | This is a recurring theme over the past few years. It is difficult to bring out a quality newsletter with fresh exciting information every week with a staff of volunteers. I agree that "Weekly" should be removed from the newsletter. You can't get rid of the newsletter though. Every good distro has a newsletter of some sort.
I think the newsletter should be delivered about once a month. It could be called "Gentoo World" Newsletter, that way we could keep the acronym GWN. "Gentoo World" simply meaning, news around the world about Gentoo.
All of the weekly stats related stuff that is usually at the bottom of the GWN should be moved to a separate "Gentoo Stats" web page that can be updated daily/weekly or whatever. |
full ack!
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ryker
Guru
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 412
Location: Portage, IN
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| snIP3r wrote: | | ryker wrote: | This is a recurring theme over the past few years. It is difficult to bring out a quality newsletter with fresh exciting information every week with a staff of volunteers. I agree that "Weekly" should be removed from the newsletter. You can't get rid of the newsletter though. Every good distro has a newsletter of some sort.
I think the newsletter should be delivered about once a month. It could be called "Gentoo World" Newsletter, that way we could keep the acronym GWN. "Gentoo World" simply meaning, news around the world about Gentoo.
All of the weekly stats related stuff that is usually at the bottom of the GWN should be moved to a separate "Gentoo Stats" web page that can be updated daily/weekly or whatever. |
full ack! |
I have no idea what you mean by that. If you're referring to the fact that I agree with the recent change of the GWN to be monthly, then yes, I do agree with changing the release schedule. The only thing I have a problem with is the name change and all the related changes (irc channel, email, etc). I just think this type of change should be voted upon. I really think the GWN acronym has been around for so long and people recognize it, that it should be kept.
@steveL
musikc mentioned to me one time that wolf31o2 needed to be the one to publish it. After reading his recent post on the -dev list, I think that was because he had already decided not to waste any more time on the GWN.
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ryker
Guru
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 412
Location: Portage, IN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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I just noticed there's now a poll on this thread. WTF does "Who should run Gentoo" have to do with late GWN issues?
Stay on topic maybe?
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