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Ibn al-Hazardous
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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Location: Somewhere deep in the desert.
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 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Kloeri wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
My point is completely logical. The statistics provided show a decline. You attempt to refute them by saying that you can't count the retires because they never did anything. But logically if they never did anything then you can't count them as additions either. Which, accounting for these still leaves the statistics originally presented still showing a decline. Show me the error in that logic.
If your point is "take my word for it" then ok i guess. But nothing you have said actually refutes the statistics provided other than "take my word for it". |
Except that the "decline" happened after 2005 and most of those inactive developers was added before 2005. So you're not counting those as adds. |
The decline since 2005 is in adds. Retirements does not enter into those statistics. The statistics that are done on retirements are the only hopeful ones - they show that devs are staying longer and longer. A mean of two years is still a bit alarming though.
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slonocode
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | Kloeri wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | What's more, the rate of new developers joining has been declining with 40% since 2005 (by Berkholz' numbers in LWN), and the mean liftime as a developer is two years. So it's not a question of the last three weeks - it's a question of the last three years. If fewer and fewer developers join, we just may have a problem on our hands. |
That's largely because inactive developers weren't retired before I started doing so in 2005. There was a lot of developers who had done less than 10 commits despite being ebuild developers for 2+ years. Hardly a great loss when looked at that way. |
If you look at it that way don't you also then have to question the number of new developers? If you don't want to subtract at the end because they did very little then it is hardly proper count them as additions in the first place. |
This is where you completely lose me. Fewer and fewer developers have been joining since 2005. The rate of joining is 60% of what it was at the beginning of 2005. What has this to do with retiring old devs?
The figures for how long a developer is active have actually been climbing since 2005, but the mean has only reached 2 years. So your counter argument does not hold water. |
While the quote only talked about joining the source statistics talked about retires also. I was responding to Kloeri's statement about the retires.
Last edited by slonocode on Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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And in order to make myself abundatly clear, the link: http://lwn.net/Articles/253875/
The first diagram shows the average liftime of a dev, the second shows which year the currently active devs joined. If the number of devs joining remained constant, and the average liftime also remaind constant - the second diagram would be climbing. If the number of devs joining remained constant, and liftime was increasing - the second diagrom would be climbing a bit less steeper. But it is going down, which means that the rate of joining devs is declining faster than the average lifetime is increasing. That, in its turn means that we are getting fewer devs.
Already retired devs are not a part of these statistics at all, because they are based only on currently active devs as of last fall.
What this indicates is that gentoo is not succeeding in attracting new devs at the same rate as it has before. What this depends on may be argued, but not that it is happening.
Is it good or bad for the survival of gentoo? I believe it is bad.
What is the problem? Beats me. I'm not arguing for a solution here, I'm trying to create awareness of a problem. (So please don't mix this up with the drobbins debate, I'm not a fanboy of his.)
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Yes. The point was that earlier AllenJB was saying that since we welcomed two new developers during the last three weeks, and retired none - there is no problem with developers. This was a, perhaps juvenile, way of saying: "Ooops! We did retire some developers during the last three weeks." |
I'd like to point out at that point that I didn't know where to get accurate figures from, so I used the best sources I could think of. Since new information has come to light, this has obviously influenced my views (tho I still don't believe there's this mass exodus that people claim there is - and I still think people are misinterpreting / reading too much into the LWN graphs). |
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: |
While the quote only talked about joining the source statistics talked about retires also. I was responding to Kloeri's statement about the retires. |
What source statistics? My bugzilla search? That was statistically insignificant - since it was limited to a period of the last three weeks. It was merely a stupid way to make a point, really. 
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slonocode
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
While the quote only talked about joining the source statistics talked about retires also. I was responding to Kloeri's statement about the retires. |
What source statistics? My bugzilla search? That was statistically insignificant - since it was limited to a period of the last three weeks. It was merely a stupid way to make a point, really. |
You sourced the lwn article as where you got the 40% figure. |
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krinpaus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Maedhros wrote: | | Please keep the replies courteous and polite, everyone, and don't let this thread degenerate into flaming, or we'll end up having to lock it. Thanks. |
I respectfully ask that you not lock this thread.
Warn the individual user(s), and ban them from the thread (or from posting to the entire forum for "x" amount of time,
if the software will not allow such finite configuration), but please do not lock this thread.
It is so easy for someone to intentionally post flames here, perhaps having their agenda easy fulfilled, that being
the locking of a thread in which honest discussion of the state of this distribution is taking place (notwithstanding the
wiki).
We All lose then.
We have already had the "poll thread" locked and dismissed.
We have no glimpse into what the devs are discussing, either, and that, too, is a form of censorship.
Please allow this free speech to go on.
Thank you. |
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Ibn al-Hazardous
Tux's lil' helper
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Yes. The point was that earlier AllenJB was saying that since we welcomed two new developers during the last three weeks, and retired none - there is no problem with developers. This was a, perhaps juvenile, way of saying: "Ooops! We did retire some developers during the last three weeks." |
I'd like to point out at that point that I didn't know where to get accurate figures from, so I used the best sources I could think of. Since new information has come to light, this has obviously influenced my views (tho I still don't believe there's this mass exodus that people claim there is - and I still think people are misinterpreting / reading too much into the LWN graphs). |
Maybe we are, and maybe we're not.
If we have statistics that indicate there's a problem - we can approach it two ways: 1) Make a note of it, and investigate further (primarily getting better statistics) - and if there still seems to be a problem, do something about it. 2) Ignore it.
To me, approach number 2 is less than satisfactory, so I'm arguing and prodding - in order to see if someone with the competence/access will do number 1 (or become fed up, and give me access to work on number 1). 
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | slonocode wrote: |
While the quote only talked about joining the source statistics talked about retires also. I was responding to Kloeri's statement about the retires. |
What source statistics? My bugzilla search? That was statistically insignificant - since it was limited to a period of the last three weeks. It was merely a stupid way to make a point, really. |
You sourced the lwn article as where you got the 40% figure. |
Ah, but the lwn figures are exclusively based on currently active devs. Follow the link in a previous post.
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | To me, approach number 2 is less than satisfactory, so I'm arguing and prodding - in order to see if someone with the competence/access will do number 1 (or become fed up, and give me access to work on number 1). :) |
Well I can't think what information you want that isn't publically available via bugzilla. You might need to review the bug reports and filter out the joke/irrelevant ones, but every dev has a bug which tracks their time with Gentoo. If you look at some of the retire ones they start off with the recruitment of the dev in question.
So just look at a recruiters bug for any dev to see what the format is for those joins, review the buglists and do the analysis to get the statistics, if you want to. |
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | To me, approach number 2 is less than satisfactory, so I'm arguing and prodding - in order to see if someone with the competence/access will do number 1 (or become fed up, and give me access to work on number 1). |
Well I can't think what information you want that isn't publically available via bugzilla. You might need to review the bug reports and filter out the joke/irrelevant ones, but every dev has a bug which tracks their time with Gentoo. If you look at some of the retire ones they start off with the recruitment of the dev in question.
So just look at a recruiters bug for any dev to see what the format is for those joins, review the buglists and do the analysis to get the statistics, if you want to. |
Well, isn't that exactly the kind of opperation Donnie Berkholz did - which yielded data does apparently not satisfy? If that kind of data is good, maybe I have to prod until someone is ready to take the problem to the next level. (A discussion on core? Is that ever gonna help?)
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Well, isn't that exactly the kind of opperation Donnie Berkholz did - which yielded data does apparently not satisfy? If that kind of data is good, maybe I have to prod until someone is ready to take the problem to the next level. (A discussion on core? Is that ever gonna help?) |
Don't prod: do. "With Free software you either do, or you wait." |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | To me, approach number 2 is less than satisfactory, so I'm arguing and prodding - in order to see if someone with the competence/access will do number 1 (or become fed up, and give me access to work on number 1). |
Well I can't think what information you want that isn't publically available via bugzilla. You might need to review the bug reports and filter out the joke/irrelevant ones, but every dev has a bug which tracks their time with Gentoo. If you look at some of the retire ones they start off with the recruitment of the dev in question.
So just look at a recruiters bug for any dev to see what the format is for those joins, review the buglists and do the analysis to get the statistics, if you want to. |
Well, isn't that exactly the kind of opperation Donnie Berkholz did - which yielded data does apparently not satisfy? If that kind of data is good, maybe I have to prod until someone is ready to take the problem to the next level. (A discussion on core? Is that ever gonna help?) |
It's not the data, it's the way it's presented - there's no graphs of current developer numbers, active developer numbers (developers who have made atleast one commit or bug modification) etc over time. |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Well, isn't that exactly the kind of opperation Donnie Berkholz did - which yielded data does apparently not satisfy? If that kind of data is good, maybe I have to prod until someone is ready to take the problem to the next level. (A discussion on core? Is that ever gonna help?) |
Don't prod: do. "With Free software you either do, or you wait." |
Do or do not, there is no try. |
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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Location: Somewhere deep in the desert.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Well, isn't that exactly the kind of opperation Donnie Berkholz did - which yielded data does apparently not satisfy? If that kind of data is good, maybe I have to prod until someone is ready to take the problem to the next level. (A discussion on core? Is that ever gonna help?) |
Don't prod: do. "With Free software you either do, or you wait." |
That one's really funny by now. How's a body supposed to do anything without dev status? I could try to file a bug, but apart from that - as a user I'm pretty much shut out. Do you possibly have a more constructive suggestion?
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bmichaelsen
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | That one's really funny by now. How's a body supposed to do anything without dev status? I could try to file a bug, but apart from that - as a user I'm pretty much shut out. Do you possibly have a more constructive suggestion? |
You could continue to analyse the development data further:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/report.cgi
Bugzie is pretty open ...
.... however cvs stat data might be a bit harder to find. |
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MoonWalker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | Yes. The point was that earlier AllenJB was saying that since we welcomed two new developers during the last three weeks, and retired none - there is no problem with developers. This was a, perhaps juvenile, way of saying: "Ooops! We did retire some developers during the last three weeks." |
I'd like to point out at that point that I didn't know where to get accurate figures from, so I used the best sources I could think of. Since new information has come to light, this has obviously influenced my views (tho I still don't believe there's this mass exodus that people claim there is - and I still think people are misinterpreting / reading too much into the LWN graphs). |
hey AllenJB, for once I have to agree with you
With statistics you can "prove" almost anything, I think there are lots of "real world" examples of that. I don't mean one should neglect these figures but there at least one major (and probably more) ingredient that makes them harder to interpret. As for the CVS, the nature of the commits have changed over years in a sense what qualify to get commit access. There is no data on the size of the commits, a commit might originally been a patch rolled by someone w/o commit access, how many commits are just small corrections, restructure etc. etc. and CVS in it self is a tool leaving a lot to wish - especially if we go back a few years.
As for the dev bugs, as Kloeri pointed out there was a major clean-up at a point, and probably there has been some minors as well - this disrupts the data in a sense making it almost useless for time graphs, and we know things have slipped from time to time with Gentoo as a whole, for various reasons. So I certainly wouldn't read to much out of any of these sources as a base for conclusions. This said it doesn't mean they may show some indications which may support other facts. But they hardly stand on their own.
If there is anything that might show as clear trend I think it can be the concentration of active devs, that the gentoo core is getting smaller. Also that it appear like most activity is in archs outside of x86 && x86_64 which probably are the most active archs among users - this may be a cause of the segregation between devs and users that has become very appearant the last week.
Reading the gentoo-nfp ml archives is quite interesting reading infact, there you can read things like
| Quote: | | We are developers, we're not tax specialists nor lawyers. |
and
| Quote: | This is another indicator, to
me, that we shouldn't be wasting our time doing the legal aspects
ourselves if we can't even get 5 people that want to do it out of 300+
developers. |
and lot more... I wonder, is it said somewere a Trustee has to be a developer? Why does devs "frame" them self from users? a group most of them sprung from and in a sense still belongs to...
So we know there are 300+ devs, who many of these are active and in what areas?
I know "we" are closed out from the -core list, and I can accept that although I think read access by archive would be fair. One thing I wonder though is who many of these devs are now taking active part in the discussion I supposes is going on in the core list about the present situation?
I cannot prove this in a statistic way or like it, but I think the "main" problem Gentoo of to day have to solve (apart from the legal stuff) is the segrigation between devs and none devs, we need to see that we all are users and equally important, and we all deserves each others respect.
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bmichaelsen wrote: | | Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | That one's really funny by now. How's a body supposed to do anything without dev status? I could try to file a bug, but apart from that - as a user I'm pretty much shut out. Do you possibly have a more constructive suggestion? |
You could continue to analyse the development data further:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/report.cgi
Bugzie is pretty open ...
.... however cvs stat data might be a bit harder to find. |
I could, but what would I do with the data? Report to the forums? It seems nothing written in the forums is taken seriously. Report to gentoo-user? It can't see how that'll be taken any more seriously. Fix 100 bugs, and submit ebuilds to bugzilla in the hopes to become a dev so I can post to core - where such a discussion presumably belong? Yeah, right. My job is as a software developer - I don't have that much spare time available (being happily married with children at that).
I pointed out a problem, and was told it's not a problem - until I explained the problem i such detail it became impossible to deny. Then I'm told to fix it myself. When I ask for constructive input on how, I'm told to dig through bugzilla.
Well, if I get feedback on what to do with the data once I have it (other than stuff it), I'll do it. If I know it's going to go down the drain - I'm not interested. (I've been down that route.) This was the question you misunderstood; bugzie was already mentioned as the source. And I still can't see why data I dig out of bugzilla is going to be viewed as valid, when data Donnie Berkholz dug out is not.
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Ibn al-Hazardous
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MoonWalker wrote: |
As for the dev bugs, as Kloeri pointed out there was a major clean-up at a point, and probably there has been some minors as well - this disrupts the data in a sense making it almost useless for time graphs, and we know things have slipped from time to time with Gentoo as a whole, for various reasons. So I certainly wouldn't read to much out of any of these sources as a base for conclusions. This said it doesn't mean they may show some indications which may support other facts. But they hardly stand on their own.
If there is anything that might show as clear trend I think it can be the concentration of active devs, that the gentoo core is getting smaller. Also that it appear like most activity is in archs outside of x86 && x86_64 which probably are the most active archs among users - this may be a cause of the segregation between devs and users that has become very appearant the last week.
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I take exception to this interpretation of the data. Kloeri's clean-up has no impact at all on the data - since the data is exclusively on currently active devs. No retired devs are part of the numbers.
Sure, you can prove anything with statistics, provided you get to phrase the questions - and nobody looks closely at your figures. OTOH, as an active reader - it's possible to poke hole on such statistical lies.
Saying "I don't want to hear about it." is not going to remove actual problems.
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Slalomsk8er
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well I don't think that the developer thing needs that much coverage here as it is only a indication of how pleasant it is for volutiers to work on the Gentoo projects and maintain ebuilds.
And why most of them leave after 2 years has some thing to do with who they are. Mostly students that enter the working class and start families.
What bothers me is that there seams to be no way for Gentoo to motivate skilled persons to do unpleasant work that is highly needed. I believe we need to find some sort of motivator to get that ugly things done. I know of 3 things that motivates young male persons to do not funny things: women, fame and money.
The first is probably out of reach for us to offer as reward  ethical and availabillity problems mostly
The second should not be to hard to provide for a community. it is a shame we don't have more of the groupie type women that could push this one to the extreme.
The third one could work and as a community we could implement it in the form of a bounty system.
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | | That one's really funny by now. How's a body supposed to do anything without dev status? I could try to file a bug, but apart from that - as a user I'm pretty much shut out. Do you possibly have a more constructive suggestion? |
Dev access is not required. What you do with the data is up to you; personally I'd put it on a website with links to all the bugs you reviewed, including the ones you don't use as part of the stats, so that others can transparently look at it and help with the data analysis by providing constructive criticism, or indeed just say "yeah that makes sense."
The bigger question of how useful it is, is another matter. All Gentoo devs seem to be saying they're overstretched and we all know the tree is a lot bigger than it was. A sub-project deciding on the statistical validity of the figures doesn't change that.
The thing I think is left out of these discussions is the use of overlays. Many herds in Gentoo do stuff in overlay and then push it to the main tree. In a sense, the place you find the old Gentoo spirit is in their IRC channels (eg #gentoo-haskell, -java, -kde or -xeffects) where they work with interested users who often become devs (or as useful as.) So the development model is different to a few years ago, and it scales quite well afaics. |
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MoonWalker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting comment from an retired dev, even lead dev, done at the funtoo site blog
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=32090778&postID=1696847092653852929
| Quote: | I've always been a proponent of having a buck-stops-here-guy within Gentoo. Frankly, Gentoo started veering off course the moment that person no longer existed. Gentoo needs a benevolent dictator of sorts.
I served as the Lead Developer of Gentoo/amd64 from 2003 to 2005. During that time, I thoroughly enjoyed working with the developers on my team. However, any time a decision needed to be made outside of the sphere of influence I participated in (amd64, releng, infra), it was a nightmare. Instead of having an individual we could go to who had the authority to say "here's how it is", we had to deal with the ombudsman and devrel, both of which had their small amount of authority constantly undermined by developers who simply didn't care to listen. Even if that buck-stops-here-guy decided against a suggestion that I had I would be cool with it. At least a decision would be made, rather than allowing the problem to fester over time (which is a common occurrence in Gentoo today).
I would personally consider rejoining Gentoo as a developer if the structure Daniel proposes were implemented. Perhaps Daniel isn't the person Gentoo wants for this purpose (although his ability to start and run the Gentoo community proven by history), but the Foundation must give someone this authority if Gentoo intends to survive into the future. |
So now at least we know, even if all devs leave at least one will come back, ok concider to come back
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Living on earth is expensive, but it includes a free trip around the sun
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Last edited by MoonWalker on Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Carlo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| slonocode wrote: | | Uh I understand your claim. You offer no proof of it though. Do you have any stats to back that up? |
You have only your wild guesses, while Kloeri has some knowledge of the inner workflow of Gentoo over a couple of years. Here's no one giving you some pointless stats. Just grok that Kloeri is right.
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Slalomsk8er
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Does someone know the status of the other trustees and has some source to back it up? We only know the exact status of Chris Gianelloni from his mail to the list.
And for completeness the exact document that was not filed would be very nice to know.
Thanks
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Tallak
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