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| Would you leave the current Gentoo for a D.Robbins led "Gentoo fork"? |
| Yes |
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49% |
[ 194 ] |
| No |
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43% |
[ 168 ] |
| Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo". |
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7% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 390 |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: |
Read the latter posts - KDE 4 is going in the tree. These things don't happen overnight - if you want things to happen faster, how about you step up to the plate and help instead of whinging.
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Wow, more rhetoric. I never said anything about KDE4, I could care less. And I would help out, except for the fact that I own/manage my own business while still helping out part time for an old employer until they find someone that can replace me. I don't have to time to jump through all the hoops required to become a dev. I, and most people, don't have that kind of free time. |
You stated that you believe it takes software longer to hit the main tree. KDE4 has been a commonly used example of this recently.
And you don't need to jump through all the hoops to become a dev to help out. I'm not a dev and I still help out on IRC, the wiki and donating packages I create via bugzilla and my website. In fact, the usual way most people become devs is that they help out, lots, then they get picked up (but you don't have to help out lots to be helpful - every little helps).
| Quote: | | Quote: |
We shouldn't do away with overlays for several reasons:
1) I'm putting this one first because it's to do with something you lot whine about: They allow the devs to give potential developers a higher level of access without giving them direct access to the tree. This encourages more people to contribute more often and helps those who may do a lot of contributions in a given area but either aren't a dev or don't want to become one for whatever reason an access route.
2) It keeps a clearer separation between experimental and more stable packages.
3) It allows developers to have a place to put experimental packages they're working on and want feedback on from the community before the packages are put in to the main tree.
4) They allow developers to keep around older / less used packages that they don't want kept in the main tree - giving users more choice in what packages they can install.
(Tip of the day: eix can search a selection of overlays even if they're not installed - see http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/genstef/2006/11/ )
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Exactly my point, overlays make it eaiser for DEVELOPERS. For everybody else, overlays simply complicate things. That used to be one of the big benefits of gentoo, at most for an unstable package all you had to do is add a line in package.*. And besides, how much clearer does a user need than hardmasked, ~arch, or stable? Is that in any way unclear? As far as the rest, if you want to attract new devs, reorganize from the ground up. Not having access to the tree isn't what's keeping people from helping out. |
I don't find they complicate things. As I said above, they provide a clearer division of experimental and "more stable" packages for both users and developers. I've also found the experimental or old packages I've found in overlays helpful on a number of occaisions.
People used to complain about how many stale and unmaintained packages there were in the tree, which was partially a result of the developers not knowing what users have found useful or not having the time to maintain packages. With overlays, this doesn't happen as much because the older, lesser used packages can be moved to overlays and contributors can update packages directly in official overlays without having to "jump through hoops" to become developers (and developer recruitment has improved because more people are contributing more often).
| Quote: | | Quote: |
There are a number of reasons. Primarily it's not considered "complete" yet, even by its own developers. It also has a completely different interface to emerge, which some of the Gentoo devs dislike. And if you think this would have a chance of being used under drobbins, you can forget it. Last time drobbins came back, he asked for the lead paludis developer to be removed from #gentoo-dev and pretty much won't have anything to do with him. I'm not saying ciaranm has never done anything either, but just making you aware that this would not be different under drobbins, since some people think it would be.
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READ. I don't care about Palaudis, I chose my words on purpose. Even if it isn't any good, or can't fix any of the problems, thats not what I was getting at. Politics have kept it out of gentoo for one reason or another. |
Don't take things so personally please. While I may be replying to your post, this post is on a thread which has a broader subject. I wasn't necessarily talking to you directly.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And every time the devs make a decision, the users snap at them, basically call them stupid and tell them that they're wrong and should make a decision they don't want to live with. It's a two way street. |
Yeah, but users aren't representing gentoo, the developers are. Even if it isn't official, even if they don't mean too, every response they type with a username that has Developer under it, they are speaking for gentoo. |
No, it's not. You can't treat the words of developers in open source projects like this. It doesn't work like it might do for a company. You have to treat each developer as an individual contributor to the project. Anything else is pure folly.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Many developers disagree. The council and foundation were set up, from what I gather, because things weren't going perfectly fine with one man at the top. Gentoo has grown since then. Why would it run fine with just one man at the top now?
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Of course they are going to disagree, they don't want to have someone (drobbins) telling them what to do. Nobody wants to lose their authority. I don't know why it didn't work before, I wasn't there (neither were you) and therefore I'm not going to talk out my ass. My guess would be he tried to micro-manage things. Which doesn't work.
As to why it would run fine now with just one man at the top, oh, its the way nearly every successful business is run. The CEO makes day to day decisions, and if a majority of the board disagrees, the CEO is over-ruled. If not, his word goes. Big decisions go to the board anyways, with the CEO having a vote. |
I personally think some members of the community put too much emphasis on the thought of power. Yes there is power, but with power comes responsability. And by and large I don't believe any of the developers are simply "bent on keeping power" - they are far more interested in continued technical development and how any changes to the structure of the developers will affect that.
I may not have been there before, but I have been taking the time to research events from that era and talk to some of the many developers who are still around from that era. I don't claim to know everything that went on, but I've been educating myself in order that I can make a more informed personal decision on the matter.
By one view, your CEO example fails completely here because the way I and others I've talked to have read drobbins offer, it is he who would have the veto over the council and the foundation, not the other way around. I may be wrong here, but what if I'm not? I do know that the developers that I've spoken and listened to have been in contact with Daniel to investigate his offer and they are discussing all the options. |
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bakters
n00b
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | bakters wrote: | | I can't understand how come this log is supposed to show, that Daniel did anything wrong last time he visited? He was attacked without any provocation, ... |
If you look at posts going way back between ciaranm and drobbins (and others), I think you might find "provocation" in those posts. As in most cases, no one party is to blame overall. |
Why not?
| Quote: | | However the fact remains that daniel did want to get rid of a valuable contributor (even if he does get on some peoples nerves) purely because of a personality conflict, while many other developers are quite happy to tolerate him and let him contribute. |
IMO Daniel was right. In any project, but especially in an Open Source project, it is crucial to keep the atmosphere good. People who are antisocial do way more bad than they do good, so they need to be kept in check. I remember a rant^Wlecture of guys who did Subverision about how to deal with this kind of behaviour. Daniel was most probably right and even if majority of developers agreed with him, there was nobody with enough weight behind him to step up and decide what should be done to solve the situation. So they did nothing.
| Quote: | | Those who claim that "one man at the top" is a good thing should consider: Is refusing to allow someone to participate in the project purely because you don't like them personally a good way to run a community? Because that is, in my opinion, undoubtedly what drobbins would do. |
I hope he would! |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: |
Those who claim that "one man at the top" is a good thing should consider: Is refusing to allow someone to participate in the project purely because you don't like them personally a good way to run a community? Because that is, in my opinion, undoubtedly what drobbins would do. |
If that one person is the reason that other people quit/will not help, and those people are capable of taking over what the one person is doing, then yes. If one person is bringing attitude and moral down among everyone, they are a liability and should be let go. Letting them stay is playing politics. |
Let me emphasise and expand:
Is refusing to allow someone to participate in the project purely because you don't like them personally while the rest of the community is content to let them continue contributing a good way to run a community? |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bakters wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | bakters wrote: | | I can't understand how come this log is supposed to show, that Daniel did anything wrong last time he visited? He was attacked without any provocation, ... |
If you look at posts going way back between ciaranm and drobbins (and others), I think you might find "provocation" in those posts. As in most cases, no one party is to blame overall. |
Why not? |
Because there are always two sides to a story.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | However the fact remains that daniel did want to get rid of a valuable contributor (even if he does get on some peoples nerves) purely because of a personality conflict, while many other developers are quite happy to tolerate him and let him contribute. |
IMO Daniel was right. In any project, but especially in an Open Source project, it is crucial to keep the atmosphere good. People who are antisocial do way more bad than they do good, so they need to be kept in check. I remember a rant^Wlecture of guys who did Subverision about how to deal with this kind of behaviour. Daniel was most probably right and even if majority of developers agreed with him, there was nobody with enough weight behind him to step up and decide what should be done to solve the situation. So they did nothing. |
They didn't "do nothing", they made a decision and refused Daniel's request. Have you actually viewed the material produced on dealing with abrasive personalities in open source projects? I haven't, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "kick them out and exile them for ever, and don't accept any contributions from them." To do that would be simply childish and petty in my book.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Those who claim that "one man at the top" is a good thing should consider: Is refusing to allow someone to participate in the project purely because you don't like them personally a good way to run a community? Because that is, in my opinion, undoubtedly what drobbins would do. |
I hope he would! |
Then I am glad it is not your decision to make. |
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tabanus
l33t
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 638
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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(Haven't read much of the rest of the thread so apologies if this has already been said)
No, I wouldn't switch to a D. Robbins fork (not that I think he will), because one day he will:
1. Get bored of his new distro (or God forbid, Gentoo again if the trustees accept his offer).
2. Fall out with other developers/contributors/users, throw his toys out of the pram and leave us in limbo again.
3. Decide to get a life and want to stop running the show himself again.
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bakters
n00b
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | Let me emphasise and expand:
Is refusing to allow someone to participate in the project purely because you don't like them personally while the rest of the community is content to let them continue contributing a good way to run a community? |
1. Proposing of removing Ciaran wasn't purely due to a personal dislike. Daniel assumed (rightly), that Gentoo will be better without the likes of him.
2. "The rest" of the community wasn't especially pleased with Ciaran too.
For example: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46503
I certainly do care - more than I could ever care about all the
'valuable input' provided so kindly here by ciaranm, which is so
valuable that it has cost us two developers in two days.
There were some, who obviously liked to see a fight, where a former champion took a beating from a lightweight. It's so amusing, you know. Bad for a project, but soo amusing... |
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retroman
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Stuttgart
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Might be a dumb question at this point however, who is on top now? How does/did he get there? Does he get elected?
Personally I have no problem with gentoo at all and use it on all of my computers, I originally started using for several years because I needed a distro for 4 of my sparc 64 computers. Gentoo still runs the server at work.
As for you folks who have convinced yourselves that this KDE4 debacle is a gentoo issue. I invite you to install the svn overlay. If you still think it belongs in the portage tree, your smokin' crack. Ive accepted the fact that KDE4 is mostly BROKEN. Im using it right now. I wouldnt however install it on anything else but this test computer. For those folks not brave enough to jump into the SVN version, why the urgency, when every post thus far holds kde4 as barely usable. For that matter, I wondering how much your paying for dues each year as you demand high quality service from the devs.
Ive stated before in another thread that everyone will bitch until kde4 is in the portage tree, and once its there they will bitch that it doesnt work right. I says the devs take the first option and let them bitch at something that doesn't yet require support.
Lets stop all this talk about mistrust and evil devs because people cant get something for free as quick as they want. |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1850
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the criticism of overlays, but I use them when I want to implement a specific bug fix into a copy of an existing stable ebuild. I have several patches as well as some of my own custom hacks installed on my mythtv machines that way. The last thing I'd want is to have that mixed in with the standard ebuilds.
Tom |
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bakters
n00b
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | They didn't "do nothing", they made a decision and refused Daniel's request. |
Like this guy here? 
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46500
Thanks for trying, but Gentoo just has too many folks who don't
understand the issue with the behaviour of folks like Ciaran. Our
recruitment was too focused on technical skills; we never focused on
recruitment based around a shared culture, and I honestly think it's
too late now (which is why I quit).
| Quote: | | Have you actually viewed the material produced on dealing with abrasive personalities in open source projects? I haven't, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "kick them out and exile them for ever, and don't accept any contributions from them." To do that would be simply childish and petty in my book. |
But that's pretty much your only option. In an Open Source project you have no other leverage over people. Of course that's what those guys recommended. |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| bakters wrote: | | Quote: | | Have you actually viewed the material produced on dealing with abrasive personalities in open source projects? I haven't, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "kick them out and exile them for ever, and don't accept any contributions from them." To do that would be simply childish and petty in my book. |
But that's pretty much your only option. In an Open Source project you have no other leverage over people. Of course that's what those guys recommended. |
Because putting aside your personal differences and working together (or even simply ignoring each other, which works fine if you're working on unrelated areas of the project) would just be too silly. If everyone had everyone they disliked at one time or another kicked off the project, you'd end up with no one left. You are going to meet people you don't like in life and you are going to have to at least try to get on with them sometimes. It happens. As I said earlier, walking away from a project just because there's someone you don't personally like on the same mailing list is just plain childish IMO. |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | Maybe I'm misunderstanding the criticism of overlays, but I use them when I want to implement a specific bug fix into a copy of an existing stable ebuild. I have several patches as well as some of my own custom hacks installed on my mythtv machines that way. The last thing I'd want is to have that mixed in with the standard ebuilds.
Tom |
I believe the criticism is specifically levelled at the use of official overlays from http://overlays.gentoo.org - not personal overlays. Either way, I believe both are invaluable. |
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speeddemon
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: |
No, it's not. You can't treat the words of developers in open source projects like this. It doesn't work like it might do for a company. You have to treat each developer as an individual contributor to the project. Anything else is pure folly.
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You're missing my point. People WILL see them as an official voice, simply because they are in a position where they have access to the gentoo project that the average person doesn't.
| Quote: | I personally think some members of the community put too much emphasis on the thought of power. Yes there is power, but with power comes responsability. And by and large I don't believe any of the developers are simply "bent on keeping power" - they are far more interested in continued technical development and how any changes to the structure of the developers will affect that.
I may not have been there before, but I have been taking the time to research events from that era and talk to some of the many developers who are still around from that era. I don't claim to know everything that went on, but I've been educating myself in order that I can make a more informed personal decision on the matter.
By one view, your CEO example fails completely here because the way I and others I've talked to have read drobbins offer, it is he who would have the veto over the council and the foundation, not the other way around. I may be wrong here, but what if I'm not? I do know that the developers that I've spoken and listened to have been in contact with Daniel to investigate his offer and they are discussing all the options. |
Call it authority, status quo, whatever (maybe power isn't the best word). The point is they like things the way they are, they want to keep doing what they are doing the way they are doing it. They don't want to change. If this were somebody else besides drobbins that came up with this plan, they would still be against it.
Im not even saying this is all of their reasons. Im sure some simply don't like drobbins and don't want him back in gentoo at all. Others aren't as close minded, and simply want reassurances (I think some are just saying that as it is a more politically correct answer).
And I wasn't drawing any parallels between drobbins and a CEO, your reading too deep in between the lines. I was using that as an example that a Council lead approach (gentoo council, what we have now) will not succeed in a large project. |
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L4in
n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| tabanus wrote: | (Haven't read much of the rest of the thread so apologies if this has already been said)
No, I wouldn't switch to a D. Robbins fork (not that I think he will), because one day he will:
1. Get bored of his new distro (or God forbid, Gentoo again if the trustees accept his offer).
2. Fall out with other developers/contributors/users, throw his toys out of the pram and leave us in limbo again.
3. Decide to get a life and want to stop running the show himself again. |
Actually it's common sense that everyone someday get retired.
I think none asking DRobbins to stay in his position for ever and ever.
The main point of all this discussion is that the project need a leader, asap.
It's just that there are no other capable nominations so Daniel is just one way road.
He is the founder, he is the guy who made gentoo a competitive distro, he is the one who first envisioned the whole thing so he is the right guy for the job.
As many other projects out there when the time comes and the leader get retire, a new one will substitute him...
E.g a few days ago fedora leader also changed with a new guy... |
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speeddemon
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | tld wrote: | Maybe I'm misunderstanding the criticism of overlays, but I use them when I want to implement a specific bug fix into a copy of an existing stable ebuild. I have several patches as well as some of my own custom hacks installed on my mythtv machines that way. The last thing I'd want is to have that mixed in with the standard ebuilds.
Tom |
I believe the criticism is specifically levelled at the use of official overlays from http://overlays.gentoo.org - not personal overlays. Either way, I believe both are invaluable. |
Yep. If you want to make your own overlays, by all means. Go for it. |
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bakters
n00b
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | bakters wrote: | | But that's pretty much your only option. In an Open Source project you have no other leverage over people. Of course that's what those guys recommended. |
Because putting aside your personal differences and working together (or even simply ignoring each other, which works fine if you're working on unrelated areas of the project) would just be too silly. If everyone had everyone they disliked at one time or another kicked off the project, you'd end up with no one left. You are going to meet people you don't like in life and you are going to have to at least try to get on with them sometimes. It happens. As I said earlier, walking away from a project just because there's someone you don't personally like on the same mailing list is just plain childish IMO. |
That's how it works most of the time, but not all the time. Some people are simply not worth getting along with, both IRL and within a project. At some point things should be fixed, and there should be somebody who is strong enough to fix them. Otherwise things go as outlined below.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/46530
OK, let me get this straight... You are suggesting here that we are not
losing enough developers for devrel/userrel to be bothered enough to
start caring about WTH is going wrong here?
Sure, after Flameeyes left we have pam + alsa pretty much unmaintained,
we've lost a key KDE + sound apps developer + BSD lead; next we've lost
metalgod who was a member of already pretty understaffed Gnome herd, one
of 3 members of media-optical herd and sounds apps maintainer as well.
Then a developer and founder of this distribution who rejoined just
about a week ago ran away, scared when seeing the state of things.
That's just for the past month. |
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L4in
n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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speaking for resigns, 2 months ago the guy who was maintaining for years the baselayout and was preparing version 2.0 resigned.
Now i'm thinking how easily you guys at council can substitute a guy like uberlord with one of those many offers for recruit? hmm  |
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eXtIO
n00b
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 46
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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I will definitely not use any gentoo fork.
Does any of the "Yes" voters really think that we get a super distribution on this way? Since this topic of course affects me (like every gentoo user) I read most of the stuff... and for sure some things went wrong.
But nevertheless Gentoo is the best distribution in my opinion! And I don't see anny issues that could change this... think of the many things that where achieved by hundred of people and that are done every day. Think of the many things that make gentoo unique!
Being a software engineer i know about the big effort that has to be done for such a big project - and all contributors do this in their free time! Most of the people forget this and only see the problems. But problems can't be avoided on such a project. This is griping on a high level!
Discussions like this can be beneficial to point out such problems. My consequence are that I will become involved in the project by doing more contributions. If all of the "Yes" voters would do the same, many of the problems would disappear! |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| L4in wrote: | speaking for resigns, 2 months ago the guy who was maintaining for years the baselayout and was preparing version 2.0 resigned.
Now i'm thinking how easily you guys at council can substitute a guy like uberlord with one of those many offers for recruit? hmm |
He's still working on the same stuff basically, he's just taken it external because he wants it be available to a wider audiance (openrc - see http://roy.marples.name/node/338 ), was leaning more towards FreeBSD and had other projects he wanted to work on that he seems to have felt he didn't have time for as a Gentoo developer. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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UNLESS the fork is going to re-write and host all the ebuilds it will just be an alternate install method and an overlay. Forking Gentoo just doesn't make sense.
While some may say that the Portage code is rubbish it does its job. And yes there are two other alternatives (Paludis and pkgcore) but both are not stable enough/reliable enough for all arch for them to even be remotely concidered.
What would make more sense is weed out the noisy,disruptive,childish dev's that make gentoo look pathetic and actually getting back to dev'ing and making gentoo fun
the herds & their overlays are a great start to this
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L4in
n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | L4in wrote: | speaking for resigns, 2 months ago the guy who was maintaining for years the baselayout and was preparing version 2.0 resigned.
Now i'm thinking how easily you guys at council can substitute a guy like uberlord with one of those many offers for recruit? hmm |
He's still working on the same stuff basically, he's just taken it external because he wants it be available to a wider audiance (openrc - see http://roy.marples.name/node/338 ), was leaning more towards FreeBSD and had other projects he wanted to work on that he seems to have felt he didn't have time for as a Gentoo developer. |
http://roy.marples.name/node/337
| Quote: | | Why am I leaving? Well, my view of Gentoo has always been about choice. You know your USE flags? Well, you choose them. Choice. It's a good thing - it makes Gentoo a very powerful distro. I'm leaving because I'm being denied lack of choice with the underpinnings. The current Gentoo mindset is once the tool has been picked, embrace it to the exclusion of all other tools. The current idea is to have the entire GNU toolset available for portage to use. I find this unacceptable after I've strived to make baselayout work with the tools the base OS provides and even other init systems in portage. There is no technical reason why this cannot be done, or even dare I say allowed so we can at least try. But no, we cannot even do that. |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: |
He's still working on the same stuff basically, he's just taken it external because he wants it be available to a wider audiance (openrc - see http://roy.marples.name/node/338 ), was leaning more towards FreeBSD and had other projects he wanted to work on that he seems to have felt he didn't have time for as a Gentoo developer. |
Now you're putting words in Uberlord's mouth. Here's what he actually said:
| Quote: | Why am I leaving? Well, my view of Gentoo has always been about choice...Choice. It's a good thing - it makes Gentoo a very powerful distro. I'm leaving because I'm being denied lack of choice with the underpinnings. The current Gentoo mindset is once the tool has been picked, embrace it to the exclusion of all other tools. The current idea is to have the entire GNU toolset available for portage to use. I find this unacceptable after I've strived to make baselayout work with the tools the base OS provides and even other init systems in portage. There is no technical reason why this cannot be done, or even dare I say allowed so we can at least try. But no, we cannot even do that...
I'd like to say a big "Thank you" to everyone who voted for me in the Council, and I'm sorry that I've let you down by leaving but when you're given a big flat out no, it does leave little choice. I'd also like to say thanks to the silent majority who wanted me to stay, but it's a bit late now isn't it? You have a voice, and you should use it more. |
Though I'm sure you'll find a way of spinning even this into a positive thing for Gentoo. |
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1der
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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forking is not the solution.
the problem is with Gentoo Foundation not the developers!
The developers have been doing a wonderful job (thanks guys).
Also those who spent the time to document the process of gentoo docs also need a pat on the back.
What Daniel Robins has done is something that commands respect as well as the fact that he has opened up the discussion about Gentoo future which is great.
we are all aware that lately things have been a little off track with the Gentoo site and other matters. Lets hope this stir will bring some changes. |
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Rad
Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 401
Location: Bern, Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| bakters wrote: | | Quote: | | However the fact remains that daniel did want to get rid of a valuable contributor (even if he does get on some peoples nerves) purely because of a personality conflict, while many other developers are quite happy to tolerate him and let him contribute. |
IMO Daniel was right. In any project, but especially in an Open Source project, it is crucial to keep the atmosphere good. People who are antisocial do way more bad than they do good, so they need to be kept in check. I remember a rant^Wlecture of guys who did Subverision about how to deal with this kind of behaviour. Daniel was most probably right and even if majority of developers agreed with him, there was nobody with enough weight behind him to step up and decide what should be done to solve the situation. So they did nothing. |
Sorry, but you're wrong, bakters. It's really the case that many were against kicking him out, including some of the most popular developers (who often also happened to disagree with the way ciaranm put things) at the time - like seemant.
More to the point, that's exactly one of the reasons why I'd not like to see DRobbins in charge. Because not only he has found no better way to deal with a controversial discussion around PMS -where he himself apparently was opposed to doing any compromises in favor of the new package managers- than first harassing ciaranm in public with a slew of inquisitive questions as to how he was related and allowed to contribute to a standardization process in Gentoo at first (which is the picture perfect model how one creates citadel of inaccessible developers in the first place), then demanding him to be removed (and doing so before ensuring that such a ban is warranted in other team members' eyes as well). And after that he left. Maybe you want such a leader, I surely do not.
EDIT: Oh and please don't simplify this to me saying "zomg th3 ebil demagogue DRobbins bulied my hero ciaranm". I see problems with how ciaranm reacted as well, so he would also not be a viable Gentoo project leader to me - assuming we even needed one ... |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| L4in wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | L4in wrote: | speaking for resigns, 2 months ago the guy who was maintaining for years the baselayout and was preparing version 2.0 resigned.
Now i'm thinking how easily you guys at council can substitute a guy like uberlord with one of those many offers for recruit? hmm |
He's still working on the same stuff basically, he's just taken it external because he wants it be available to a wider audiance (openrc - see http://roy.marples.name/node/338 ), was leaning more towards FreeBSD and had other projects he wanted to work on that he seems to have felt he didn't have time for as a Gentoo developer. |
http://roy.marples.name/node/337
| Quote: | | Why am I leaving? Well, my view of Gentoo has always been about choice. You know your USE flags? Well, you choose them. Choice. It's a good thing - it makes Gentoo a very powerful distro. I'm leaving because I'm being denied lack of choice with the underpinnings. The current Gentoo mindset is once the tool has been picked, embrace it to the exclusion of all other tools. The current idea is to have the entire GNU toolset available for portage to use. I find this unacceptable after I've strived to make baselayout work with the tools the base OS provides and even other init systems in portage. There is no technical reason why this cannot be done, or even dare I say allowed so we can at least try. But no, we cannot even do that. |
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If you read the posts in order - 337 then 338 - it seems to me that some of the issues he raised in 337 appear to be cleared up by the time he writes 338. I could be wrong, but that's the way it seems to me. For example, by 338, it appears that the Gentoo devs have put support behind his project and plan to be using it to atleast partly replace baselayout in the future. |
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L4in
n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| oh please.... baselayout always was one of the key strengths of gentoo.... suddenly became insufficient? |
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