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| Would you leave the current Gentoo for a D.Robbins led "Gentoo fork"? |
| Yes |
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49% |
[ 194 ] |
| No |
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43% |
[ 168 ] |
| Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo". |
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7% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 390 |
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vitaemortis
n00b
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | kernelOfTruth wrote: | | Quote: | | Did you (as a user) provide new content to the Gentoo homepage? If not, then you have even less basis for saying the users make Gentoo... |
is that the only thing that counts ? |
Of course not. I was just pointing out that there actually has to be someone writing the content to GWN. That someone can be anyone. |
alas i think not everyone can do it. i for myself, while quite fluent in the understanding of written and spoken english would not dream about writing a content for the GWN,
because of my incapability to avoid grammatical and writing failures in both, english and my mother language.
| Quote: |
| blazeu wrote: | | Why? I'm a user. As a user I don't contribute. That's the definition of user. He is __USING__ software. |
So you don't want to contribute anything at all and you think that YOU should have the deciding word how to lead and develop Gentoo? Come on, that is just ridiculous.
A contributing user is a lot more valuable to Gentoo than those who don't contribute. |
Agreed, they should not have the deciding word. But they should have a word. I think most of the users are not contributing users. When i was starting using Gentoo back in 2001 i was for a time a contributing user. Since then i moved away from contributing much. I still like the distribution very much, but i am always looking for other distributions, with most of the same advantages of gentoo while having fewer disadvantages. And if i find one, then i will go, and i imagine so will do many other user. |
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blazeu
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Cracow, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Fine; you're just a user who wants to contribute nothing. Why on earth should I give a damn about your opinion? How useful can your advice be when you are so uninvolved and know nothing about the situation you want to advise about? |
Of course I'm contributing. I'm helping on FGO, i'm helping my friends with their gentoo distro, i'm promoting gentoo everywhere i can. Is it not enough?
| Quote: |
Aww, you can use the web, but not irc? I'm amazed you even made it through a Gentoo install. If you want the news to be better, help out with it. You don't need much to interact with a mailing-list either; you can use email I hope?
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Oh yeah. You're so great. You can use IRC. Even monkey could do it. Same applies to the newsletter. But i don't want to use them. I don't have time for it. I have work, family.. You know, the grown ups stuff.. Or maybe you don't...I want to go to main page and read. And i'm reading planet gentoo if you want to ask. If you have to attack someone go find better target, because I've been using IRC, newsletters,etc for long time.
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"With Free Software you either do, or you wait." Pick one. Whinging gets nowhere and just annoys people; especially when you only say what you want and expect others to do the work.
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I'm not whining. You're whining. "Oh, those bad users. They want stuff. And we don't want them. We're almighty, and we can decide what to do with our distro. F*** them. Go users, go. Change distro. We will be the only gentoo users on the planet." I know, that this is not what majority of devs think, but, ffs, where is this majority?
| Quote: |
So you don't want to contribute anything at all and you think that YOU should have the deciding word how to lead and develop Gentoo? Come on, that is just ridiculous.
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I don't want nor have deciding word. I just want to express my own opinion without others trolling, ranting and cursing, because my opinion is different then theirs...
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | As a user I don't contribute. |
| blazeu wrote: | | Of course I'm contributing. |
Ok, now you lost me totally. 
Anyway, I hope you see my point. Any user can comment this issue on the proper mailing lists or on these forums. The correct mailing list is nfp, AFAIK. And many devs will read it now. I'm sure a well reasoned post will affect those who make the final decision. A simple "Drobbins is c000l!" is not gonna make a lot of difference.
But I'm VERY glad this issue is not decided by a simple forum poll. I even suspect that many voters only read Daniel's blog and know only his view/propaganda of this situation.
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blazeu
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Cracow, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | blazeu wrote: | | As a user I don't contribute. |
| blazeu wrote: | | Of course I'm contributing. |
Anyway, I hope you see my point. Any user can comment this issue on the proper mailing lists or on these forums. The correct mailing list is nfp, AFAIK. And many devs will read it now. I'm sure a well reasoned post will affect those who make the final decision. A simple "Drobbins is c000l!" is not gonna make a lot of difference.
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I contribute in other ways. Those ways are not as visible as mainpage or GWN, but I suppose I can say that i'm contributing. And when I said that I do not contribute I said it from the standard-non-contributing-user point of view.
I wonder if it's not too late for any decisions. All trustees resigned, except Grant Goodyear. He believe that he repaired Foundation and everything will be OK from now on. I hope it will, but...
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batistuta
Veteran
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 1384
Location: Aachen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | My point is that I think developers are more important for Gentoo than non-contributing users. Simple as that. |
Ok, in this sense, I fully agree with you Paapaa. What I don't like to see is this concept that developers don't need us users. This idea that Gentoo could fully survive without us. I mean, of course their project would survive. But it would not be Gentoo. Because users DO contribute in many other important ways than writing ebuilds. Now as for non-contributing users, I'll agree with you. However, I think every user contributes somehow. Even a newbee posting a beginners question contributes, because this question will serve other newbees in the future. |
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Aww, you can use the web, but not irc? I'm amazed you even made it through a Gentoo install. |
| Forum Guidelines wrote: | | 8. No bashing - If someone is posting about a problem they are experiencing, don't simply tell them they are using the wrong program and recommend they try your recommendation. Instead, provide facts or opinions supporting your recommendation, provide positive feedback, and please keep the criticism low. |
The guidelines apply to everybody. Including gentoo developers, moderators and administrators. So please, don't bash our users for their irc foo or lack thereof. If you are unable to communicate in a constructive way, don't post here.
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SnEptUne
l33t
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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What is all this flame and smoke? Since when did Gentoo got so political?
Whatever it is, the main problem is lack of interest in the community. Leadership may help, but I wonder how much it can help if people are more interested in pointing fingers than working together in say, bugs reports.
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| nixnut wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | Aww, you can use the web, but not irc? I'm amazed you even made it through a Gentoo install. |
| Forum Guidelines wrote: | | 8. No bashing - If someone is posting about a problem they are experiencing, don't simply tell them they are using the wrong program and recommend they try your recommendation. Instead, provide facts or opinions supporting your recommendation, provide positive feedback, and please keep the criticism low. |
The guidelines apply to everybody. Including gentoo developers, moderators and administrators. So please, don't bash our users for their irc foo or lack thereof. If you are unable to communicate in a constructive way, don't post here. |
Fair enough it was a bit rude, but I was not bashing him for not knowing irc. I was mocking this:
| blazeu wrote: | | And you said, that I should go to the irc channel or write to the newsletter... What if i don't know how or don't want to? |
..in combination with his other stuff about not wanting/bothering to contribute, yet wanting a say in how the people who do, should work. That seems wholly unreasonable to me, and I assumed he did actually know how to use irc. Sorry if the joke wasn't clear and I appeared offensive, blazeu. It's irc humour (/msg friendlyToaster aww -- it's how we cajole each other into just doing the work), and yeah this isn't irc. My bad. |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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apparently, this is being taken seriously or maybe not with both sides piling up the FUD so deep its disgusting.
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/gentoo-developer-reply.html
i think drobbins has gone over the line in some of his replies, the line that to me indicates whether he is acting like a child or not.
I would have liked to see him stay on the mature side the whole time but given the input from the "user community", his responses just go with the territory. an example was his, 'you didn't answer in my mandatory timeframe, so i'm taking my toys and going home <pout>'.
(please don't infer that the gentoo side has been a bunch of angels, clearly that isn't the case either but I think Grant has been the most stand up person so far in this whole crapfest).
what i wonder is.... drobbins got approval from his employee for dedicating time needed if he retook control of Gentoo. how does this employer view the situation drobbins has stimulated? flames on all sides... can't look positive. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | | what i wonder is.... drobbins got approval from his employee for dedicating time needed if he retook control of Gentoo. how does this employer view the situation drobbins has stimulated? flames on all sides... can't look positive. |
Well I think they must have discussed the situation beforehand, and perhaps the tactics to use (after all the employer would effectively be paying him to work on Gentoo, and that would have been a business decision, with an expected profit on that outlay.) As such I would think they'd just see it as something that didn't fly. |
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alistair
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 869
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | apparently, this is being taken seriously or maybe not with both sides piling up the FUD so deep its disgusting.
http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/gentoo-developer-reply.html
i think drobbins has gone over the line in some of his replies, the line that to me indicates whether he is acting like a child or not.
I would have liked to see him stay on the mature side the whole time but given the input from the "user community", his responses just go with the territory. an example was his, 'you didn't answer in my mandatory timeframe, so i'm taking my toys and going home <pout>'.
(please don't infer that the gentoo side has been a bunch of angels, clearly that isn't the case either but I think Grant has been the most stand up person so far in this whole crapfest).
what i wonder is.... drobbins got approval from his employee for dedicating time needed if he retook control of Gentoo. how does this employer view the situation drobbins has stimulated? flames on all sides... can't look positive. |
++
Before I explain this a few ground rules
1) I have never communicated with drobbins and therefore no nothing about what he is like as a person.
2) This is my impression of the feeling some dev's have about drobbins. This doesn't mean my impressions are correct or held by a majority ( or even a significant minority ) of dev's.
3) I can't give you numbers simply because I don't have any idea. It could have been just one dev that said this and it could have stuck in my mind, or it could have been lots. I do believe it was more than one tho.
4) This is not an official statement blah blah ( you get the picture ).
One of the themes that arose in threads that discussed drobbins proposal was the uncertainty of his intentions. I believe that the reason for this uncertainty was based on his actions last year. As most will be aware drobbins rejoined gentoo for a very short period of time. Some dev's got the impression that 1) he was there just to flame, 2) he thought his word would become that of god's, 3) he ran off as soon as he realised he wouldn't get his own way (the most unimpressive action in my books).
As a result at least some dev's were unsure about whether accepting his proposal was a good idea, especially in light of the fact that his responsibilities were so vague. Yet sadly a post like that above makes me believe that the concerns raised by those dev's are correct.
I am not very impressed by the actions of the gentoo dev or drobbins. Somehow drobbins must have thought he would be able to score some brownie points with that post and that is just sad.
Alistair
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 570
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Gentoo, the once great distribution, is now in a pitiful state. Even in this case scenario, I would not like Gentoo to be forked. I think this isn't the correct solution, but is true as well that the Foundation gives no hope to the former users, like me. So, if Daniels forked, I might try his fork and go with him, I mean nothing replaces Arch on my box, just as a second OS.
But, to be sincere, this holds a lot of mixed feelings, so in reality, please don't fork Gentoo, I know this can be fixed, even though it has been going for over a year now.
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entity
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 95
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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I'd follow drobbins' fork, if such thing emerges.
He apparently (still) has vision what Gentoo should be. I've found that one mind leading the way actually leads to results faster. Nothing guarantees that those results are absolutely correct/best, but this way no time is wasted on endless debates over how things should be done. And it is true that if the leading person is not capable of doing the job, then the whole shebang will fall apart - but history has shown that Mr. Robbins can make things happen.
I'd trust his vision of things when it comes to Gentoo (or fork of it). There, I've said it. |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| entity wrote: | | He apparently (still) has vision what Gentoo should be. I've found that one mind leading the way actually leads to results faster. . |
This is what Daniel Drake wrote on gentoo mailing list:
| Daniel Drake wrote: |
> A common complaint was that Daniel kept starting projects and making
> movements and then not following through. I witnessed this first hand
> where after admitting a huge backlog of issues that only he could work
> on, he went on to propose that Gentoo Technologies spin off another
> company, a co-operative to provide services around Gentoo or something
> like that. |
And by Marius Mauch
| Marius Mauch wrote: | Another, probably clearer example is portage-NG, which never left the
vaporware stage and IMHO caused some complications wrt portage
development in 2003/2004 as many things were slated to be "something
for portage-NG" by Daniel, therefore not implemented back then and
harder to implement when we finally realized that portage-NG would
never exist (though we probably should have known better when we heard
the plans which were quite ... interesting). |
Is this the kind of vision people think Gentoo needs?
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| I do like the way no one in this thread has come up with an answer to the question of what more they want out of Gentoo than it currently gives them. |
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omnio
n00b
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | I do like the way no one in this thread has come up with an answer to the question of what more they want out of Gentoo than it currently gives them. |
We already did it somehow through these 6 pages, but not everyone listened. However, I doubt this was a right place to point out problems since the thread has "Robbins" in its title which tends to cause flames. |
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entity
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 95
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | Is this the kind of vision people think Gentoo needs? |
Like I said in my previous post:
| Quote: | | I've found that one mind leading the way actually leads to results faster. Nothing guarantees that those results are absolutely correct/best, but this way no time is wasted on endless debates over how things should be done |
Correct me if I am wrong, but visionaries aren't actually feet-to-the-ground types, hence my statement that nothing guarantees the result. Some things WILL NOT work as suggested - and this WILL cause gray hair for hard-working devs that see their efforts going down the drain. Nevertheless, take a look at the big picture: who was the person who started Enoch, which eventually evolved into Gentoo? Who made those choices? Who had the vision to do things in a better way? I just cannot really imagine that Mr. Robbins was able to pull it together by failing in every aspect of the process. 
And since there were projects that didn't work, could you also list those that did? It would only be fair, would you not agree?
In my humble opinion, yes, it is the vision that Gentoo needs. Does it have the potential to fail miserably? Of course - but tell not to try. |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| entity wrote: | | In my humble opinion, yes, it is the vision that Gentoo needs. Does it have the potential to fail miserably? Of course - but tell not to try. |
I agree completely that those were just 2 cases which failed. I'm sure there are cases that did actually work as intended. My take in this issue is that I really don't know how things worked when Drobbins was in charge. BUT there are many developers who do know how things worked back then. And there are many (majority?) opinions that things didn't work that well.
I don't have to work with Drobbins but the devs have to. This is the critical issue. I'm sure Drobbins might have some nice ideas. But he wants a very high position in Gentoo hierarchy and many think that he is the wrong person to fill that place.
If Drobbins has good ideas, he is free to discuss about them with other devs. He doesn't need to be the King of the Hill to improve Gentoo. For me it looks like he just wants Gentoo back to himself as opposed to wanting the best for Gentoo.
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | If Drobbins has good ideas, he is free to discuss about them with other devs. He doesn't need to be the King of the Hill to improve Gentoo. For me it looks like he just wants Gentoo back to himself as opposed to wanting the best for Gentoo. |
if nightly builds are "visionary" we're screwed no matter what. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| entity wrote: | | In my humble opinion, yes, it is the vision that Gentoo needs. Does it have the potential to fail miserably? Of course - but tell not to try. |
Sure, but right now devs are free to try whatever they like. The point being made was that because there was a "strategic vision" laid down by the Dictator, no-one was able to explore other avenues, which led to a load of wasted time when that vision didn't come off. I wasn't around ofc, but it doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Gentoo works atm as a federated structure of herds. They can collaborate or compete or completely ignore each other, as they choose. In a sense it's more like Linux than a standard distro, as a software project, in that it provides an ecosystem wherein anyone can try out whatever they like.
With a Dictator, yeah, you can fork if you really don't like it: that's what the standard answer used to be. Nowadays you don't have to. I prefer the latter since it leads to more software being produced, and more happy devs since they get to code whatever they want. |
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batistuta
Veteran
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 1384
Location: Aachen
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | I do like the way no one in this thread has come up with an answer to the question of what more they want out of Gentoo than it currently gives them. |
Ok yeah, I'll tell you!!
I want a distro that gives a branch which doesn't break every day (although I like the idea of celebrating every time an update world doesn't crash), and that this branch is also up-to-date. So I want something like freebsd gives you in testing, or what Gentoo used to give me two years ago. |
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AllenJB
Veteran
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| batistuta wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | I do like the way no one in this thread has come up with an answer to the question of what more they want out of Gentoo than it currently gives them. |
Ok yeah, I'll tell you!!
I want a distro that gives a branch which doesn't break every day (although I like the idea of celebrating every time an update world doesn't crash), and that this branch is also up-to-date. So I want something like freebsd gives you in testing, or what Gentoo used to give me two years ago. |
I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're running ~ARCH here, because I run amd64 (with selected packages ~amd64) and I very rarely have breakages. |
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kernelOfTruth
Watchman
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 6111
Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | batistuta wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | I do like the way no one in this thread has come up with an answer to the question of what more they want out of Gentoo than it currently gives them. |
Ok yeah, I'll tell you!!
I want a distro that gives a branch which doesn't break every day (although I like the idea of celebrating every time an update world doesn't crash), and that this branch is also up-to-date. So I want something like freebsd gives you in testing, or what Gentoo used to give me two years ago. |
I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're running ~ARCH here, because I run amd64 (with selected packages ~amd64) and I very rarely have breakages. |
I think by "breakages" / "crash" he meant a world-update where you're not forced to run revdep-rebuild or rebuild more of 2 hand full of apps (at least this happens to me every 2nd of 3rd time I update, and that's every 1 to 2 weeks - is that too often ?)
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omnio
n00b
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| batistuta wrote: |
Ok yeah, I'll tell you!!
I want a distro that gives a branch which doesn't break every day (although I like the idea of celebrating every time an update world doesn't crash), and that this branch is also up-to-date. So I want something like freebsd gives you in testing, or what Gentoo used to give me two years ago. |
I agree. Also, while many of us are enthusiasts or hobbyists, some of us actually DO use gentoo on their servers to provide services, and often can't afford to spend their time wondering what happened during the last update since some things don't work anymore (even though they reviewed the emerge logs and never went ~ARCH), or what caused such a scary breakage that even revdep-rebuild can't handle. They simply can't afford that. |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1850
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kernelOfTruth wrote: |
I think by "breakages" / "crash" he meant a world-update where you're not forced to run revdep-rebuild or rebuild more of 2 hand full of apps (at least this happens to me every 2nd of 3rd time I update, and that's every 1 to 2 weeks - is that too often ?) |
I certainly don't think so. What's more, having to occasionally run revdep-rebuild certainly isn't a sign of a problem if you ask me. I don't see how certain library upgrades could be allowed without it. I often run revdep-rebuild because the elogs suggest it, and most of the time nothing needs to be rebuilt anyway. I can't remember the last time I found out I needed to run revdep-rebuild as a result of something breaking (rather than finding out from the elogs).
Other than the occasional revdep-rebuild, the only thing I generally ever run into updating world is the occasional blocker...which almost always turns out to be the result of a dependency related to a package that I marked as ~ARCH in the past which no longer needs to be.
I just don't see any of it being any worse than it was when I started using Gentoo 2-3 years ago.
Tom |
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