Genkernel - blessing or curse?

[idl]

[sephtin]

I think what he meant.. was for different functions and such, what all needed to be included with the kernel. For example.. for Laptops with Cardbus, you might need:

##PCMCIA/CardBus support ---> * PCMCIA/CardBus support
##PCMCIA/CardBus support ---> * CardBus support
##Network device Support ---> PCMCIA network device support ---> (appropriate cards)


Another example, might be for an IDE Burner, you need:
##SCSI support ---> M SCSI support
##SCSI support ---> M SCSI CD-ROM support
##SCSI support ---> M SCSI generic support
And then need to add the ide-scsi\nsg\nsr_mod modules to modules.autoload.

Those are the kinds of things that I've found to be the biggest pain with Kernel config. I have hopes that someday, automation will detect, or simply prompt me for these kinds of things, and config it for me..
IE: do you have an IDE CD-Rom? (y/n): where y will modify the kernel config, log it to a log file for reference (or maybe even tell you what it changed), ............ but I digress.
(Ok.. flame-bait.. but Wouldn't it be nice!?!)

My worst nightmare with kernel config'ing, is getting the machine to shut down. For some motherboards, to get shutdown -h or halt to completely shut down the machine, I have to compile with APM. With some, I have to compile with APCI. Nowhere does it say "if you have this hardware, or this chip, or ??? then you need "this" set of options in the kernel.

Again, I think this is off topic, (and correct me if I'm wrong,) but I beleive this is more towards what he was referring to when he said that kernel documentation is a little lacking.

I will be the first to admit, once I've gotten kernel config'd the way I like it on a particular piece of hardware, I'm happy.. but when I change systems, or help someone else... I have NEVER gotten things to work perfectly within the kernel on the first try. I always either miss something or mess something up.
Documentation that helps with these types of issues would be invaluable to me... and I think is what fbreuer was referring to... ??
John

[cyclebrock]

Somebody else mentioned that they scripted their kernel builds after doing the initial configuration. I've been doing that since I started using Gentoo. Now though, I've started to use the "genkernel --config" switch which basically opens up "make menuconfig" before doing the "make dep......." dance that I've always scripted anyway. This gives me the best of both worlds, a consistent building process, and the ability to customize the kernel to my liking.

I'm not a hardened veteran yet so maybe I'm missing something but I see no difference between the finished product the old way and new way. aside from the additional init.rd stuff.
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Wit what?

[searcher]

As i'm reading through this topic i see different sentiments. On the one side you will have the power users (as masseya pointed out, they are the target audience for gentoo) and on the the other hand the users that want a "quick fix". When i started out using gentoo i used slackware for a while as a server. Out of the box with a small firewall script. I couldn't do anything in linux. So i started reading, and tinkering. I must have messed up at least 20 linux installs. This is how you learn.

At that point i switched over to gentoo. Gentoo is not hard to comprehend, if you are willing to put in the time. You will need to show interest and sacrifice some time to study how it works. If you want something that's done right away you will need to find another distro, such as knoppix, which comes preconfigured.

It all boils down to what you want to do with your pc. Do you want to build it or use it? I enjoy tinkering and doing some programming for school on the side. But i'm not an average user. A better guide on what options are needed for which bit of functionality would be nice, and in my opinion would be more valuable then an automated script which keeps the user oblivious to how the kernel works, and what the system needs to work. If you have no interest in how the inner workings of your gentoo system work (or at least how you want to configure it) gentoo probably isn't for you. If you don't how to do something there are thousands of people willing to help on this forum, and you will learn.

~searcher
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You are unique ... just like everyone else.

[masseya]

[murkus]

[bcavalieri]

Genkernel is fantastic, I have gentoo installed on 10 servers and over a hundred desktops (using ltsp).

genkernel makes the kernel a snap, since it builds the initrd and the hd detections works for most of the desktops.

[fbreuer]

[echo6]

I love genkernel,

[Jet Dee]

I have to give my 2 cents here: as a newbie to Gentoo myself, I felt a little relieved when it came to my third attempt to successfully Stage 1. Genkernel seemed like a good idea, reminding me a little, only a little mind , of Plug and Play (tm). However, I think it needs to come with a GIANT warning. I spent a week trying to figure out why my ethernet card kept breaking whenever I booted up, and eventually I came to the conclusion that it was the combination of Genkernel and Hotplug doing the dirty.

I feel there is potential for Genkernel, it just needs more work. The make menuconfig utility in Gentoo is, if i say so myself, fantastic. Not only is it clean and concise, but there is a help option available for all options, should a newbie not understand. I used this quite a lot, and I found it to be great. It also helps you to understand more about the Boot process, and how to "streamline" the kernel to speed up the process when you gain more knowledge.

So, in conclusion, just add a warning to the Doc!
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Seven years of screwing my PC's up, and here I am, still standing

[neuron]

I think it's a good thing, if a part of the install can be as easy as

emerge genkernel
genkernel
emerge hotplug
rc-update add hotplug default

then that's much better than trying to explain a user why he has to compile support for 8139too to get his laptop network card working.

there could maybe be a genkernel --graphical or something, that'll throw in a make menuconfig, but will copy in the new kernel automaticaly, so newbie's also can try to be power users


I wouldn't use it, but I think it's a good thing

[idl]

[neuron]

[srodney]

Dear All
My feeling on this subject is this. There seem to be many people who think that Linux is a religion and that you will never fully experience the religion unless you suffer.
An analogy came to me. If I wanted a car to my tastes and preferences, I can build one from scratch myself (LFS); a person with no mechanical experience whatsoever, or I could buy a kit that provides me with the parts and tools necessary to construct one (Gentoo).
We are wasting time and energy arguing over whether a certain spanner should be included in the toolkit or not. If “newbies” use the tool and ask for help it should be given with without rancour. After all none of us were born with instant GNU/Linux Guru status and today’s “newbie” is next weeks “Tux's lil' helper” and we will need them in the years ahead as the next round in GNU/Linux’s development is coming. Consolidation.
Already SuSe has fired the first shots and if the Gentoo community wants to be a survive we need the newbies to form the foundation for moving to the next level
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Kind Regards
srodney

*Life is a garden. Dig it*

[paranode]

I think if they need a generalized kernel for those who can't handle configuring their own, Gentoo should just give them the .config file from the LiveCD and let them do the rest. That's easy enough without turning it into a magical script without any clue what's going on.
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Meh.

[idl]

[quanta67]

Damn I don't get you CL facists. I know that's not quite the subject, but it sounds like the next words on the tip of the original posters tongue is, "and while I'm at it, why do we even allow n00bs to use GUIs at all?"

It's a slippery slope to stupidity if you ask me.

I mean come on, if you hardcore nerds were given a choice between a quick and simple way to do a thing and a hard way to do a thing, are you seriously saying that, even after having done it a thousand times already, you would still choose the long hard laborious way each time?

Sometimes real people actually have lives and it isn't possible for them to invest countless hours doing the same old tasks over and over again, while having most of their time taken up with just maintaining their PC's. So the next thing you might say I guess is, 'why then use Gentoo at all?' The answer is obvious. Gentoo is a superior distribution. It doesn't hold your hand through everything, but once you have it configured it is amazingly easy to maintain.

Anyway there is such a thing as a Gentoo graphical installer. Its called GLIS and is being worked on by a number of official Gentoo developers, so I guess your worst nigfhtmare of an easy to install easy to configure Gentoo is likely to soon come true.

However I fall into the camp that so long as you can still spend countless days doing the same old repetative tasks ad-infinitum, then you shouldn't be worried waht other people do.

For me I think there is a breed of human out there who is a CL fanatic - and who becomes deeply distressed at even the remote possiblity that the CL will somehow be depreciated in their OS. Let me assure you now, hopefully for once and for all, that that is never ever going to happen.

Q

[neuron]

/me 's a huge fan of dumbifying things. So anyone can use it, aslong as I still have access to all the advanced stuff, I'm fine with that.

same with the whole "why are we mimicing windows gui" deal, it is'nt the windows gui that's flawed... the windows gui works perfectly well, it's been in development for years, and they'v taken input from many sources (such as apple for example).

the only thing a install system could do terribly wrong is stuff like default user root, aslong as that won't happen, and I still have access to the advanced stuff, I'm 100% supporting making it easier for anyone to use.

[idl]

[ewenger]

I don't know what kind of bee got in your bonnet but you should get a few things straight before you run off screaming...

I've been using Linux since 1994 and I have never had as much trouble as I've had with Gentoo 1.4 and genkernel. I have built my own kernels many times and the one thing those attempts had in common was SUCCESS. Unfortunately I've not had the same experience with Gentoo.

Let me be clear.

I built the kernel the first time using gentoo-sources and genkernel. No DEVFS!!! How does that work? Then I tried building the kernel with menuconfig and enabled devfs. Now I got a booting kernel. Then I thought ck-sources was the source distribution for me. Menuconfig doesn't even present the option of adding DEVFS to the kernel!!!

I think we completely agree with each other on one point, genkernel should never have been released. And neither should gentoo 1.4...

One last item. I have been excited about using gentoo for three months now and I have been EAGERLY awaiting the release of 1.4 to install it for the first time. That is the reason I am so terribly disappointed; having used the BSD ports before I loved the idea of getting my own custom distribution. If I didn't care, I would never have posted this...

[Techie2000]

Personally I have no problem with Gentoo giving the users the option of using automated tools to do the installs as long as they allow me to continue to do it the old fashioned way. Newbies can be initiated and inducted into our ranks. We should welcome them with open arms, convert them, and send them out to convert their friends...
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"And I'm right. I'm always right, but in this case I'm just a bit more right than I usually am." - Linus Torvalds

[senectus]

Genkernel is great if your in a hurry.

But GenKernel could have been avoided if the "in kernel help" type doco was of a higher standard.

when your in the kernel and config'ing you have no idea what something is you need to be able to ask and be inform straight away.. much of the kernel doco SUCKS. Its either way to tech or there isn't anything there at all!

that being said.. I still prefer make menuconfig
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[neuron]

so how about my little idea, genkernel --graphical, maybe even force it.

genkernel sets up a kernel with stuff required by gentoo, such as devfs atm. With a crapload of stuff as modules, then launches make menuconfig. Then the newbies who wishes to use genkernel and can go in and turn off stuff they don't need. If they know how. After that it installs.

"Menuconfig doesn't even present the option of adding DEVFS to the kernel!!!"
as stated in the install instructions, you need to enable show experimental stuff

[raid517]

From my perspective its about ease of use. If the help docs for kernel configuration were more explanatory then yes fair enough, maybe doing kernel compiling the long way would be ok, but many options in the kernel are pretty obscure - and for a n00b there is often no way of telling what is needed and what isn't.

In any case for all you guys that don't trust it, there's genkernel --config, which puts you fully back in the driving seat where the only options that need to be selected are the ones you choose. Then it just becomes an argument about whether you preffer having to add or remove components. And really that argument is just completely trivial.

You still have the choice - all it is is a suggested n00b configuration. If you don't like it; change it. It's that simple.

Q

[kallamej]