Discussion on user contributions to Gentoo: issues/proposals

[node_one]

I noticed that on the Staffing Needs page most of the postings are very specific. So does Gentoo need more arch testers, bug-wranglers, etc? Do those belong on that page? I do not know, what do you (plural) think?

[tanderson]

[quote="node_one"]

[steveL]

[Syntaxis]

[steveL]

[zyko]

*bump*

Are the wheels still in motion? Any updates?

[node_one]

What do you want to know more about?

I can tell you than since I started looking at gentoo-scm nobody has posted anything. I have not seen anything related to recruitment/contributions on gentoo-dev or gentoo-project. Gentoo-wiki is down right now.

[96140]

--

[steveL]

[node_one]

[Kasumi_Ninja]

[node_one]

Is there anything users/contributors can do to get bugs with posted fixes committed? I am not talking about enhancement bugs but about actual bugs. Bumps appear to be looked down upon.

[sdfg]

I've been reading through this all at ynwin's recommendation after mentioning wanting to help in #gentoo-kde. I think the ideas presented so far have worth, but I'm seeing a slightly bigger/different problem than most people have mentioned.

I'm a techie first and foremost, but I'm unused to tools such as C/C++ etc - my forte is Java/C#/Perl/HTML/CSS/ASP.NET (though I'm learning Python so I can take over the world). I've always wanted to take part in something, but didn't know how to start. I'd consider myself a power user to the extent that I can troubleshoot problems, I've edited the odd ebuild in my time, I can use local overlays etc. I've worked as a project developer, technical business analyst, and manager. I've got a degree in network computing, and I'm currently working on a PhD in artificial intelligence, where I'll be using open-source games as my environment (that's a fancy way of saying I'm working on AI for games ). I don't mean that to be a CV, it's just to let you know that I am a techie at heart when I tell you what's next.

I think the problem is that techies are trying to find a techie way to organize other techies. Everyone so far is talking about numbers of developers, using already existing tools to work around stuff and so on - that latter part is indicative of the OSS community I think, where there are more clashes and collisions between software than other OSs. However, there doesn't seem to be any administration of the techies other than the senior techies saying 'yeah, alright', and I think that's where the problem is. I honestly think that Gentoo needs some sort of administrative layer for volunteers of a less techie background, or who want to get involved in a different way can contribute - I for one love optimizing systems, streamlining them and making them work better together, and I'd love to be involved in such a layer in the Gentoo community. There are a number of extremely good resources out there, but very little glue to hold it all together.

Community resources we have at present:

• The Forums.
  
• IRC.
  
• Gentoo-wiki.
  
• Gentoo-portage.
  
• The website and its documentation.
  
• The developers.
  
• Bugzilla.

These are all relatively disparate systems, and such a 'glue' mechanism as a Community Support (CS) section of Gentoo could do the following:

• The Forums pretty much work well anyway, but the experience of the forum mods and admins would be incalculable in helping setup the CS.
  
• Co-ordinate with Freenode on IRC requirements. Maintain published lists of rooms and their ops. Help with training new ops to CS.
  
• Maintain the wiki as admins. This could include monitoring IRC and the forums, and updating the wiki pages as necessary, or even starting them. (This would require bringing the wiki into the fold, but I can't think of anyone that would say that's a bad thing).
  
• Maintain the website (the main documentation as provided by the various herds, links, published lists etc).
  
• Talk to the developers. Get a feel for the work they do, how they work, what they want. This would feed through directly into wiki articles, website articles, newsletters etc. People hate 'no that can't be done' but love 'no, that can't be done yet, but we're planning x, y and z'. EDIT: I've just read The Thread regarding kde4.1, and by having just a few people even to chat to, the CS might be able to get some information to put people's minds at ease. This is just an example, mind you.
  
• Bugzilla maintenance. In terms of assigning, culling, etc. Taking the administrative work away from the developers, so they have time to develop.

There are also other tools that could be used should the CS get up and running:

• It could match experiences and interests of aspiring volunteers to projects needing development or maintainers - sort of like an administered monster.gentoo.org. This has been mentioned before, but seemingly shot down. I disagree that such a thing is a bad idea - given this is a technical community it would be very easy to create something that could be searched ('I'm looking for someone who knows Java, and has an interest in protocols and networking' - that's easy in a formalized system).
  
• Part of the business analysis side of my work was business processes, and despite me originally thinking they were nothing but new-management rubbish, they are actually very powerful. For those that don't know of them, they are simply flow-charts that have various bands for who does what thing within the process. This is the kind of thing that is best for showing life-cycles, commit processes etc, especially when you can link straight from particular points in the process to documentation relating to that task.
  
• It could act as a one-stop shop, where everyone involved in it has a wide wide breadth of knowledge, but not necessarily deep knowledge. That way if someone was unsure of the best place to go, they could ask the CS, and be directed to the right place. I know this is generally done anyway if someone asks a question in a wrong forum or chat room, but providing this kind of thing would help the people who might be afraid to ask in case it was the wrong place.
  
• Allow some sort of centralization of the community. For example, as I said I don't know C/C++, and having someone publish a list of sites with good language conversion tutorials (or even writing one themselves) would be a huge bonus to those people (like me) who might be techie but wary of other languages, especially knowing how they can affect people's systems. The people in the CS could spot general ideas or gaps in combining knowledge and then fill it.
  
• Talking to devs about why they are leaving, or asking if they'll be coming back, and so on. Not in some kind of intrusive way - obviously this is all voluntary and no-one is required to stay - but it might be something to do with how a project is run, or the technical aspects of the project, or anything which the CS might be able to help with. The CS wouldn't just be a resource for the users, it would be a resource for the developers too.

Someone mentioned that Fedora has paid members on their dev team, which is why they can jump on bugs as they are spotted - but they also employ business managers to ensure the smooth running of the project as a whole. The CS could fill that niche for Gentoo, facilitating an interface between users and developers. It would also be a huge boon for those people who might not want to volunteer in a technical nature, but do want to help out.

In summary, aka TL;DR (it was a long post, sorry) DistroWatch lists one of the key pros of Gentoo being the huge amount of documentation, experience and knowledge of the community, but once you're here it all feels a bit disjointed sometimes. Users would like some sort of 'unified' view of Gentoo as a whole, and developers (seem to) want to smooth things over with how they relate to potential volunteers. By creating a Community Support section within Gentoo, and combining all the documentation and other resources under one banner, users would have that view, and the devs could pass a lot of the administration of things over to the same section. I know what I've said seems to focus more on the user experience side of things, but there is huge potential there in terms of taking the recruitment out of the hands of the projects into a centralized place for the devs. Yes I talk about administration, but given the techies kicking around, I don't see why that administration could be streamlined with technical tools, but it's not something you can take people out of at all.

-Khas

[node_one]

Kasyx,

You have formulated this very well and I agree with you on many of the points you have posted. If there is anything I can do to help you, and others interested, realize any of this, post.

[zaccret]

I'll try to summarize the suggestions for helping us (users) to contribute.

• The "how to contribute" information must be more visible and centralized. For example, a visible "Contribute" link in the Gentoo web site could bring us to a page where we could learn all we have to learn to contribute (e.g. almost everything is in User Relations page, especially chap 5, but for now there is neither a link to this page from the home page nor from the top menu).
  
• In the same way, the "how to join" information could be more visible and centralized. Maybe it is voluntary as Gentoo devs only want to talk to really motivated people... and you must be really motivated to find this information. For now, most of these informations are in two different pages : Recruiters page and Staffing needs page. Only the second one is accessible from the left menu and I believe that something like "Join us" would be more eye-catchy than "Staffing needs".
  
• A "Community Support" team could make the "glue" between Gentoo devs, users, forums, doc, Bugzilla... (all community resources = devs resources + users resources). I wonder if this is not already the goal of the Gentoo Public Relations project and its User Relations subproject.

I don't keep other suggestions about recruitment because I think this should be a discussion between devs. However, we'll have to talk directly to devs to give them our suggestions.
So now :

• Where do we send our suggestions ? If we follow what is in the user relations page, we have to send an email to userrel@gentoo.org or the gentoo-userrel mailing list, or find them in #gentoo-userrel on irc.freenode.net.
  
• What do we send ? I can send this summary (with more descriptions, of course) and give the link of this thread, but as you can see, my english writing is not very good, so maybe someone else could do better. Anyway, I can (and probably will) do it , but something well written may be more efficient, I guess.

[NeddySeagoon]

Kasyx,

Good post and you have hit the nail on the head with regards techie organisation.
Techies in general don't in general make good managers/administratiors because they are not interested in that sort of thing.
Look at the history of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. to see evidence for that. Its a purely admin body staffed by developers.

The other side of the coin is that people with admin sklls are not attracted to the Gentoo project as the developer pool doesn't try to recruit people with admin skills.

Declaration of bias and interest:- Before continuing, readers should be aware that I hold the post of President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc.

At the risk of starting a flamefest, I can see that if the Foundation were to attract admin people who are not yet developers *and* the Gentoo Project and Gentoo Foundation Inc can work more closely together, some of the admin skills could be transferred from the Foundation to the Project. There won't be any overnight changes as its 'human nature' and existing organistaional 'inertia' need to be overcome.
Never the less, the Foundation may be able to help with some of these things.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

[steveL]

That sounds great Neddy; it'd be good to see the users' contributions given more positive feedback and usage, eg with the types of stuff being proposed on this thread.

[reavertm]

I really think that the part with 'users' contributions given more positive feedback' was never a problem. If some actions (not just words spoken) were taken by users - it was usually accepted. One example could be humble myself messing rather freely with KDE4 threads and FAQ in DE on forums. Of course sometimes it's good to know the way how to ask etc... (but you know - it's all for the greater good here).

There is always only one problem - someone has to do the actual job. As no one can force anyone (either from Gentoo Foundation or Gentoo Project) to do everything as no one is being payed - the only way to get some progress is to start acting for myself and start proposing not just ideas but complete solutions. And they are very likely to be implemented when they are seen appropriate.

Kasyx has summarized situation quite accurately (we need more bugwranglers - like KDE herd has lost the only bugwrangler they had and scarabeus being a dev is left alone in managing bugs - "need for bugwranglers" should be mentioned in "we want you" page), zaccret even proposed some semi-complete solutions. Of course they are not fully complete as a goal we would need completely reworked, better designed "Uncle Sam: We Want You!" and the most important - more accessible documents. Putting somewhere on main gentoo site big link "Join us!" or "Get involved!" pointing to http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/index.xml would be good start (but only start).
NeddySeagoon, is there a possibility to have it implemented like... now? Or there is better idea being discussed?

Of course those it's just a workaround as this page is nowhere near this one - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
I guess Ubuntu is great example how to encourage people to participate and we should rip off those ideas from them.
Gentoo Project 'we want you' page is too hermetic. besides - it really looks like description of internal procedures rather than 'welcome' page for users - whole layout, even just its look is repulsive, sorry :)

So.. to start acting - is anyone interested in creating similar (like Ubuntu one) page ^^^ for Gentoo Project? Maybe it could be organized as a Wiki (later with restricted access) - as Wiki is way easier to edit than those Gentoo's XML's. (maybe even all online Gentoo Documentation project excluding Installation Handbook could be migrated to Wiki to ease maintenance and accessibility in the future).

Myself I have some vision how to clean up and organize forums a bit - categorize them - so far it's easy to get lost and I imagine that moderating is just a pain. Changes (it may be a pain and it should be done somehow to preserve links=backward compatibility) :
- lock Desktop Environments (forever - it would become only for grouping)
- in DE create separate subcategories, one for each environment - separate for Gnome, KDE (maybe separate for KDE3 and KDE4), XFCE etc (+ subcategory Other - just in any case)
- if it's not desirable to MOVE all threads to appropriate subcategory (backward compatibility?) then just lock Desktop Environments and allow posting in desktop subcategories
- the same as above could be applied for more forum categories

Just tell me what you think of it - so I could either start with some complete propositions (related to categorisation) or come up with other idea.
_________________
Maciek

[NeddySeagoon]

If you think the Foundation can help, come and chat to the trustees in #gentoo-trustees, write to the alias, trustees at gentoo dot org or file a bug. Developing ideas on a bug it not a good idea. Try the -project mailing list for that.

You can also come to the next trustees meeting in #gentoo-trustees on November 16th at 19:00 UTC.
The channel will not be moderated provided the meeting follows the agenda. See the channel /topic
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

[sam_i_am]

I've been using Gentoo for over 5 years now and have contributed occasionally in the form of answers on forum and a bug report here and there. I've always wanted to contribute more, but couldn't find a way to do more than filing bug reports.

I went through this entire thread and found it echoed some of my own preceptions as well as gave credence to some of the (not so positive) impressions I had with the way Gentoo is been fairing. So, here's my take on this:

The model being used to promote devs is fraught with problems. It requires existing devs to evaluate people who want to contribute and requires new people to prove themselves. Often, technically competent people with only a small chunk of time don't want to go through this kind of initiation rites. I believe this has happened mostly due to the type of scm being used. You can probably guess where this is going, but, just bear with me.

Since the scm requires devs with commit access, you have to approve the "dev" and not the "work". However, if a distributed scm (you guessed it - git ) is used, then the above scenario gets reversed. Each dev can approve the "work" of any contributor and merge it to his/her own repository. Each contribution stands on its own merits and all the effort that went in to all these overlays can be easily incorporated to the main tree.

I came across Daniel Robbins "Metro" yesterday and has since been reading quite a bit about git [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)]. In particular, Linus and Randal's talks were very good starting material for me (although Linus's talk was a bit off-putting at times).

I really believe that can solve a lot of problems that Gentoo is facing. There is a significant number of people who don't want to go through the hassle of becoming a dev, but want to contribute nontheless. A good case in point was illustrated in this thread itself (I think). Someone wanted to update the content in gentoo.org web, and when he offered, the answer was "you're not getting commit access (wink)". What a moronic way to respond! If it was me, I would have interpreted it as "Nice try bud. Go screw your self. We won't let you touch our precious web page". The end result is that he got pissed off and went away. This could have easily been avoided had they used a distributed scm as there would have been no need to beg for commit access.

Just my $.02.

Sam
PS: Not all problems can be solved with technology. But I really believe that the current technology (scm) encourages strife while a distributed scm promotes individual excellence.

[yngwin]

We are most likely going to move from cvs to git. It is currently being tested. See the gentoo-scm mailinglist for discussion on that.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF

[sam_i_am]

That is great to hear! I guess all that typing was for nothing

[desultory]

[steveL]

[reavertm]

I'm thinking of sending GLEP proposal related to changing the wokflow involving the developers and wranglers, but first some discussion.
Basic ideas would be:

- creating three-layer structure with bug wranglers, herd-testers, developers

- lower requirements for bug wranglers - requiring only good social skills, basic gentoo/bugzilla knowledge and a bit of free time - they would have bugzilla R/W access, they would be communicating directly via email/IRC with developers and herd testers - informing them about new bugs, asking them about hot to handle particular bug (whether to close it as invalid, duplicate, etc, whey they felt confident enough, they wouldn't need to ask, but then again - asking usually doesn't hurt)
This way - 'non techies' would be invited to contribution, having bugwrangling powers they would feel involved enough. Ideal total number of bug wranglers would be at least twice as number of developers - to address bugzilla issues faster. Redundancy in bugwranglers is also imporant - the more of them - the less time they would need to spend individually to keep bugzilla manageable and maintain rapid response.
It's advised for bugwranglers to be informally associated with particular Gentoo project (like KDE bugwranglers, Gnome bugwranglers, Java bugwranglers) - this is related to "basic knowledge" requirement - it's better to take care of something I like, use and I'm oriented in.

- keep requirements and granted rights for herd testers (or wannabe-devs, likelytobe-devs) as they are now - so access to official testing overlay, bugwrangling powers but still no direct access to Portage tree

- keep requirements and granted rights for developers
The only difference is the developers would be freed from unpleasant for them and time consuming duty of managing bugs. Of course the developers would be still in possesion of their bugzilla rights.

Typical workflow scenario:
- user files a bug, or discusses his/her problem on forum
- bugwrangler who accidentaly reads forum or just any other user helps him state the problem if necessary - if it hasn't been done before - the bug is created
- bugwranglers receives notification about new bug and address them (duplicate, invalid)
- if bug needs more indepth knowledge - bugwrangles pokes developers/HT-testers he works with and asks them about it and acts as advised
- if developer solves some issue - he/she informs his/her bugwranglers about it via favourite way (mail, IRC, or maybe some global #gentoo-wranglers channel) and bugwranglers related to this gentoo project tries to synchronize those changes with bugzilla (closing bugs etc)

Pros:
- 'non-techies' involved in Gentoo
- developers have more time to take care of the projects they participate in (less mail reading/writing related to bugzilla) - so they are likely to deliver faster things that users usually expect them to (faster arch stabilization, new revbumps, split ebuilds, Gentoo enhancements etc). So far users tend to blame developers for lazyness, which usually is not the cause of the delay
- faster addressing of bugs and no longer hundreds of bugs open forever

Cons:
- as bugwranglers may now be "in charge" as giving assessments to developers (a'ka "Who the hell is he to tell me that this bug has been commented 100 times and would need to be fixed asap. I will decide whether I do it or not!") it may cause some possible problems with developers who cease to cooperate this way (good social skills is a requirement for bugwranglers)
- higher information flow between wranglers<->devs and wranglers<->ht's (so far - when we treat wranglers as users - apart from IRC - there's no such flow)

One note - I don't want to force new policy, but allow new policy for the ones who may see it fit (like KDE herd with over 400 bugs to resolve).
_________________
Maciek