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Sarius
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: i need a few info about gentoo from people who actually used |
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Hi guys. I wanna try gentoo linux but i have a few questions before doin that. 1st of all i need to ask because i saw on a forum that 1 dude said gentoo`s portage is not really a good package management system because it doesn`t solve the dependencies issues but as far as i am aware from sabayon emerge solve all the dependencies. Plus that u can break things up when u try to uninstall a program because it uninstalls all the dependencies without cheking if they are needed by other software. So i decided to ask u guys what`s the real thing with portage. Most of the people said it`s the best package management system but i wanted to be sure so i said to ask people who experienced portage. I know gentoo it`s not an easy distro but i`m willing to lose a few days to read and understand the handbook ... how to install gentoo ... or how to use emerge. So time is not a problem for me and thank God i have the willingness to start all over with gentoo. So please feel free to join my topic in any way u seem fit! Thanks
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eccerr0r
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I find it deals with dependencies just fine... However due to the vast number of possible configurations (much more than any other distribution since you can customize each package), sometimes there are times dependencies slips through the cracks. This especially is the case if you have custom USE flags for individual packages... This actually is a bug, and the Gentoo devs should be made aware of them.
Once again on unmerge, there are so many different possible configurations available because of USE flag customization. Tools such as revdep-rebuild are available to fix the dependencies.
YMMV. It's customization of individual packages as well as floating OS versioning that makes it somewhat harder to keep dependencies up to date.
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rndusr
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Portage does solve dependencies, and has done so as long as I can remember.
Yes, you can break things if you uninstall the wrong things. But this is quite easy to avoid by only explicitly uninstalling things you have explicitly installed. You should not 'rm -rf /' just because you can.
I don't know if it is the best package manager or not, I have not tried any of others.
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Trog Dog
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| revdep-rebuild should catch missing dependencies after removing packages. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Sarius,
Welcome to Gentoo.
We are all biased here :)
There are several package managers for Gentoo - Portage is the native one you get with your install. As has been explained, if you can provoke a dependency resolution failure, its a bug.
File bugs at bugs.gentoo.org. Its a problem with an ebuild, not the package manager and they will all fail in the same way.
There are some packages you really should not remove - portage will warn you but not stop you. You get to keep the pieces after that but in general thats not difficult to fix either. We can help with that.
Gentoo maintanence is a little different from binary distros. | Code: | | emerge -uDNav world |
updates all the packages you have explicitly installed and all the packages they depend on.
However, some of the dependencies will be libraries and updating libraries can break other things that depend on those same libraries. The tool revdep-rebuild fixes that bu detecting and rebuilding all the packages that have had their dependencies updated. This gets your system back to a consistent state.
Be aware that when you update configuration files with etc-update, or some other tool, its possible to reset some of your settings to the default state. You probably don't want that. Just be careful.
Lastly, Gentoo gives you only the packages you have asked for and the packages needed to support them. If you find you don't have a package, its because you have not installed it yet.
Gentoo is about choice. It gives you all the choices that binary distros make for you - you must make the choices.
Think of it this way, Gentoo is not a Linux distro, its a set of tools you use to make your own distro.
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Sarius
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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So bottom line portage is ok? What`s the catch with portage masking some packages? Why people complain about that? I know i`m a pain in the *** but i wanna be sure of what i`m doing and what should i expect. My other alternative would be arch if not gentoo but i will also start arch from 0 so i have to decide wich one is better. Till now i heard that gentoo has portage wich is the best package manager and i will compile it for my specific hardware wich will bring an extra speed of the application. I don`t worry for the time spending when upgrading the distro or anything like that. I just want a distro with a KDE up to date, a good package management (singed packages as well).
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rndusr
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Sarius wrote: | | What`s the catch with portage masking some packages? Why people complain about that? |
Packages that are known to break things, or otherwise are not tested enough for daily use, are masked. Masked packages will not be installed by accident, but if you really want the package you can unmask it.
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sarius,
Gentoo provides several levels of stability. Stable in this sense means tried and tested on Gentoo, not by $UPSTREAM.
You get stable by default, this is generically called arch, which means your ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is set to x86, amd64, SPARC or whatever your system architecture happens to be.
Above stable is testing, denoted by ~arch. Packages key worded as ~arch have had limited testing and mostly work. You should expect some things to break and not be afraid of fixing things or posting bugs.
After ~arch are the live builds. They point to $UPSTREAMS repository and are always hard masked. You get what happens to be there when you emerge. When it breaks, you can keep the pieces. Gentoo will fix the ebuilds but not the source code.
Outside of the portage tree are overlays. A lot of good things can be found in overlays. They are not as well tested as ~arch but the overlay maintainers are usually interested in fixing things.
What you use depends on your needs and skill level. You can mix and match from all of the various ebuild sources. Indeed you can pick up random ebuids by using Google.
You mix and match from the various stability levels by using the files in /etc/portage. In theory, this is very easy. In practice, its not always so straight forward.
Consider the case when a stable package A depends on package B at version C or less. That works A and B at version (C) are both installed.
Now you want an unstable package D that depends on B at a later version. You can't have two versions of B installed .. now what ?
Well, gentoo is about choice ... the choice is yours.
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Randy Andy
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1148
Location: /dev/koelsch
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sarius wrote: | | So bottom line portage is ok? |
Of course, it is. But its different than the most, so you have to like it or not. Its a kind of taste.
If your learn to read portages output, understand it, and follow its advises it's easy and more clear than a GUI Package manager, and more stable than that.
| Sarius wrote: | | What`s the catch with portage masking some packages? Why people complain about that? |
We have all versions of packages in the same tree (our repository), stable, unstable and experimental at the same time. This makes it easy to see, and to decide wich one you may install.
You don't have to fiddle around with a sources.list, to mix up different versions of your needed packages which my brake your whole system, if you do it wrong, or mix differnt repos of strange sources.
In gentoo you can do without risk for the whole installation, only some packages my brake, but it's easy to fix in downgrading to a more stable package. It's cause after compiling and latest after a revdep-rebuild, everything is consistent like described in a post above (recompilation against the installed libraries). On of the most advantages of this source based distro. Binary distros doesn't compile, so they had to be build at the distributor against a reference system of the package mantainers before and you have to ensure that your system is consistent to theirs, which couldn't get guaranteed when you mix different sources like stable and testing.
| Sarius wrote: | | I know i`m a pain in the *** but i wanna be sure of what i`m doing and what should i expect. My other alternative would be arch if not gentoo but i will also start arch from 0 so i have to decide wich one is better. |
Arch has no USE-Flags, and no easy way to compile all your packages to your specific hardware, needs and wishes too. So answer this question yourself.
| Sarius wrote: | | Till now i heard that gentoo has portage wich is the best package manager and i will compile it for my specific hardware wich will bring an extra speed of the application. I don`t worry for the time spending when upgrading the distro or anything like that. I just want a distro with a KDE up to date, a good package management (singed packages as well). |
That's right, and if your system is fast enough that could be fun. Otherwise be patient, and if you're experienced enough, you will find a solution for this too, later...
Conclusion: If you wish most of control to make your own decisions for your whole system, to get out most, with a maximum of comfort, Gentoo is best!
But, you have to invest more time at first, until you know how things work. After taking that cliff, you couldn't be lucky with any other distro 
Trust me, I've tried all you mentioned her and in the posts above, and lots more. But everything depends on your accommodation or likings.
P.S. Sorry for my English, I'm no native.
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Sarius
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for all the help! I will try my luck with Gentoo. I might not be able to handle all the things right but i hope u guys will help me if anything goes wrong and if i need assistance 
Regards
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Trog Dog
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Joined: 04 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sarius wrote: | Thank you all for all the help! I will try my luck with Gentoo. I might not be able to handle all the things right but i hope u guys will help me if anything goes wrong and if i need assistance
Regards |
Follow the handbook step by step, if you need wireless use the sysresc cd, and if you get stuck, ask away. |
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Sarius
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, the handbook explains how to install the X server and KDE? Sorry i`m just trying to find out more before i will start messing things up  . I`m a kde user, and i wanna get kde up and running.
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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No, the Handbook just tells how to install a basic Gentoo system, There are lots of other documents for things like desktop environments. See the Gentoo Desktop Documentation Resources in particular or the Documentation List in general.
- John
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Last edited by John R. Graham on Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ppurka
Advocate
Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Posts: 3256
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sarius wrote: | | By the way, the handbook explains how to install the X server and KDE? Sorry i`m just trying to find out more before i will start messing things up . I`m a kde user, and i wanna get kde up and running. |
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml?desc=1
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Sarius
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much for the help. U guys have a great comunity here and i just love it . Regards
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