ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo

[greyspoke]

[ff11]

[Adarion]

1st thought that came to my mind seeing the poll:
No, thanks. None of both projects.

I don't care which one is used - as long as things work and users can switch without too much trouble.
But imo currently both projects and their interaction with programs that have a dependency on them are in a DIRE state. On my system(s) I couldn't get anything to work correctly for months. Either no DVD playback or no mp4 file playback or garbled or it is something else. Some players never worked at all. Things are constantly causing rebuilds and some software can only use ffmpeg but will either fail to compile with ffmpeg also or exhibit runtime problems.

How about suggesting both projects to shake hands again and do some good maintenance release?
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[steveL]

[Naib]

There is the issue of why, in its present state, libav is available as it is - I still think it should be hard-masked until a few of what I listed is resolved: security, namespace at the very least...
There is a separate issue as to how to deal with this. LibAV is "special" as there is a gentoo dev associated with the split, but what if another project does this? Its bad form but clearly assuming civilised behaviour cannot be guaranteed upon

There is a 3rd issue and that was what drove this thread and the poll: How to set the default. It is being suggested that libav has been the default for some time (2years), it was only the default due to the order libav and ffmpeg were being listed in the ebuild which results in one being "prefered" calling it the default and one for 2years is a stretch as one always has to be listed 1st. If ffmpeg was already installed it was business as usual. This change now, a change to manage the divergence of the two projects WHILE polluting the same namespace has added an unclear situation to users which resulted in a new USE flag being created libav which by DEFAULT was enabled thus setting libav as the gentoo prefered default on the 1st Feb.

The problem is we now have two USE flags ffmpeg and libav and it is causing some users confusion. Rewind... 3years (pre libav coup)
the ffmpeg USE flag was added for packages that *could* be build with ffmpeg support GREAT, Gentoo usual method of giving choice to the user. But what does this flag/library provide? it was named ffmpeg BECAUSE that was all that provided it.

2 years ago:
ffmpeg and libav were mostly compatible and did the same thing, being handled via a VIRTUAL was adequate: USE=ffmpeg would indicate media support or not and then what the user chose to separately install manage the choice (with libav being pulled in if you didn't manually pull in ffmpeg ... ugly way but meh...)

Now:
clear incompatibilities and technical reasons not to choose libav, a new USE flag created to "manage" the choice but it obtusified the issue. People read up on the issue and see that ffmpeg works so USE="ffmpeg" is natural and logical BUT libav is then pulled in because of the new USE flag *FACEPALM*

wouldn't it be more logical to
1) rename the present ffmpeg USE flag to say ... medialib since at the end of the day this is indicating that the user/package want to have media capability provided by another package
2) the ffmpeg USE flag indicates ffmpeg to be ... USED
2) the libav USE flag indicates libav to be ... USED

So:
USE = "-medialib" no media capability enabled in the ebuild: this covers: USE="-medialib -ffmpeg -libav" USE="-medialib ffmpeg -libav" USE="-medialib -ffmpeg libav" USE="-medialib ffmpeg libav #invalid but -medialib dominate"

USE = medialib would then require one of two USE flags
USE = "medialib -ffmpeg -libav" = EBUILD USE warning that the user needs to choose,set a flag
USE = "medialib -ffmpeg libav" = builds ok, pulls in libav and builds with that
USE = "medialib ffmpeg -libav" = builds ok, pulls in ffmpeg and builds with that
USE = "medialib ffmpeg libav" = WARNING!!! incompatible combination, the ebuild for ffmpeg and libav will themselves report a blockage.

That covers the 8 combinations and is a lot clearer to the user until upstream sorts their act out or gentoo blacklists one or the other ...

every "ffmpeg" ebuild would have to be touched but unfortunately thats the way it is, they have to be tested with ffmpeg and libav to see which can be build with either and which cannot (whether it works is a different story...)
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#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
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[pietinger]

Naib,
thanks for your clear conclusion ... but I dont understand why you need a third USE-Flag.

[Naib]

More for clarity. You are right this can be done with just two USE flags but the present method "is with two USE flags ... poorly"

The issue at present is the definition of the present ffmpeg USE flag, it is actually closer to a medialib USE flag thus, explicitly labeling it as a medialib USE flag in my example helps remove any ambiguity based upon present implementation (tunnel vision by some...) split that misuse and a lot of things become simpler and self-explanatory to the user.

OR even better drop the ffmpeg USE flag to provide a clear split
libff and libav USE flags
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;

[pietinger]

[Naib]

[khayyam]

[Naib]

[Anon-E-moose]

[haarp]

ffmpeg all the way. Two reasons:

a) libav devs are full of themselves. Spreading lies about ffmpeg being deprecated, sneakily replacing packages in distros with libav (Debian and derivates, and Gentoo aswell apparently), intentionally breaking compatibility (function headers, etc) or making it harder for ffmpeg to maintain compatibility, generally pretending that THEY are the go-to version while ffmpeg is just the inferior fork, etc etc.

Regardless of politics, software made by people who act like this has no business in any distro.

b) I've had the "pleasure" of using libav myself, as I am maintaining programs that use ffmpeg/libav as their backend. I'm constantly running into bugs and problems in libav that magically disappear when ffmpeg is used. Unfortunately, helping your average Ubuntu/Mint user get rid of libav in favor of ffmpeg is a chore. Eradicating libav across all distributions should be a high priority.

[Ant P.]

"We have a developer inside" is a good explanation as to how this quietly got backdoored into gentoo, but it's the opposite of a good justification.

It does make me curious about the forced GTK3 upgrades in 2012 by a handful of loose cannon developers proactively crippling and wontfix'ing working packages; were there under-the-table dealings going on there too?

"Easier to bring sanity in"? More like groupthink. Who wants to place bets on how many of the CVEs in libav's next GLSA will smash Microsoft's all-time record of ~220 days to patch?

[khayyam]

[Anon-E-moose]

I do want to clarify my position, I know I'm a little negative on libav being the default.

But that doesn't mean that I think it should be removed from the tree or quit being worked on.
It just shouldn't be the default until such a point in time as it works on more software (correctly) than ffmpeg.
That would allow people who want to use it, for whatever reason to do so.
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[saellaven]

[Morbid Florist]

Wait, what?

The poll clearly says to make ffmpeg the default but still libav is chosen?

Whoa, I am pretty new to Gentoo and havent used it since november.
Yet that is blatant user ignorance...
I came to gentoo exactly for having none of these over our heads decisions.

[John R. Graham]

While the default has engendered a major philosophical discussion, it is in fact a minor technical issue. If you explicitly emerge ffmpeg, you override the default—and it will stick, too. No further action needed on your part. I didn't even notice when libav hit the tree because I already had ffmpeg installed.

- John
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[229566]

[chithanh]

The poll results will not determine the default. They are a data point for the discussion (as was said in the OP), not more and not less. The actual decision then lies with the developers who maintain the packages and the profiles.

And the developers have taken note of the poll results and are currently pondering how to proceed.

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94685/focus=94759
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/94685/focus=94831

[Naib]

[229566]

[steveL]

[John R. Graham]

Also, this implementation flies in the face of standard (and, in my opinion, reasonable) practise. From the Gentoo Development Guide:

Conflicting USE Flags
Occasionally, ebuilds will have conflicting USE flags for functionality. Checking for them and returning an error is not a viable solution. Instead, you must pick one of the USE flags in conflict to favour and should alert the user that a particular flag is being used instead.

The Gentoo ebuild philosophy on this topic has long been, "Make a reasonable choice, inform, and keep going."

So that brings us back around to the original question.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.