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greyspoke
Apprentice
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 171
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 Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | If you're using ~arch across the board, you're asking for trouble, ime. |
For my general desktop use I found the reverse. Like Fitz said, a lot of packages needed to be unmasked to do stuff (particularly graphics, video etc.) and that seemed to result in emerge difficulties where the apps that were in stable wanted different libraries and so on, which I found very hard to resolve (no doubt my lack of knowledge). Moving to ~amd64 definitely made things easier for me.
It depends on what kind of trouble you are expecting I guess. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I'd say it's more the trouble you're not expecting, which will bite you in the ass, when you least expect it, and most need everything "just to work."
FEATURES=buildpkg is great, ofc, and update is your friend when it comes to unmasking. |
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ct85711
Veteran
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I will have to agree with grey in that, being full ~amd64, I rarely encounter an issue. The issues I usually encounter is actual is from all the packages marked stable (typically the only ones in portage). The sad part is, is how long it takes to get patch approved to fix the issue (I've seen >5 month wait for a package to wait after a updated ebuild & patch was submitted before it was accepted, even linked to upstream's git showing the patch was approved/merged by them). |
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davidm
Guru
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 557
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | I'd say it's more the trouble you're not expecting, which will bite you in the ass, when you least expect it, and most need everything "just to work."
FEATURES=buildpkg is great, ofc, and update is your friend when it comes to unmasking. |
Thanks, good tip for "FEATURES=buildpkg". I went ahead and set it up. |
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ulenrich
Veteran
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1483
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| davidm wrote: | | steveL wrote: | I'd say it's more the trouble you're not expecting, which will bite you in the ass, when you least expect it, and most need everything "just to work."
FEATURES=buildpkg is great, ofc, and update is your friend when it comes to unmasking. |
Thanks, good tip for "FEATURES=buildpkg". I went ahead and set it up. |
Don't forget to add to
| Code: | | EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS=" --binpkg-respect-use=y --binpkg-changed-deps=n " |
Great tool to quickly go back. But whithout these OPTS you might break you system even further. |
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ulenrich
Veteran
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1483
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| greyspoke wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | If you're using ~arch across the board, you're asking for trouble, ime. |
For my general desktop use I found the reverse. Like Fitz said, a lot of packages needed to be unmasked to do stuff (particularly graphics, video etc.) and that seemed to result in emerge difficulties where the apps that were in stable wanted different libraries and so on, which I found very hard to resolve (no doubt my lack of knowledge). Moving to ~amd64 definitely made things easier for me.
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+1
And I learned from Funtoo you can still drive a Gentoo~unstable powered by a stable toolchain! |
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shadywack
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2012
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:09 am Post subject: |
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I use Gentoo because it suits my needs, plain and simple.
My needs are:
a straightforward way to manage my kernel as an EFI stub kernel
source built binaries aimed right at my Haswell with avx2 (something that 99% of binaries fail to do, and on my system 99% are built with)
control to only install the packages I need
up-to-date graphics
Binary distros fail on all counts for my primary basic needs (arch being the exception on graphics). It's not really about speed, Gentoo is just what I want. There is something to be said for when you benchmark Firefox built from source against Chrome's binaries and you see Chrome getting slaughtered for it. Granted when I build Chromium it crushes Firefox, but still, at least I have that option too. The complete epic and utter failure of Ubuntu to supply decent graphics drivers is also grotesque and disgusting. With what's in Ubuntu's repo's for nVidia drivers is basically them looking end users in the eye....sneering, giving them the middle finger, and then spitting in their faces. Make no bones about it, Ubuntu HATES gamers, and is giving a very clear message that they are to f*** off and go elsewhere. When Vulkan finalizes and is ready for public consumption, Ubuntu will be among the absolute last to adopt it and add proper support (especially given that they don't give a rats you-know-what about graphics users). In my eyes, Gentoo is a distro with devs that matter. There's not too many devs, but quality over quantity, they do great work. Ubuntu can suck it, and hopefully choke on it. I hate em.
If only OSX or Windows could be compiled from the ground up. The people that say there's not much of a difference in speed between binary and source distros, my Steam games beg to differ. Borderlands 2, LFD2, and Unigine Valley are all about 15-25% faster in Gentoo than Ubuntu/Mint installs. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | Don't forget to add to
| Code: | | EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS=" --binpkg-respect-use=y --binpkg-changed-deps=n " |
Great tool to quickly go back. But whithout these OPTS you might break you system even further. |
It depends what you're doing; if you want to rollback for instance, you don't want to rebuild packages based on current USE, just rollback directly to where you were, so you can sort out the situation. |
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deno
Guru
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 411
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| shadywack wrote: | I use Gentoo because it suits my needs, plain and simple.
My needs are:
a straightforward way to manage my kernel as an EFI stub kernel
source built binaries aimed right at my Haswell with avx2 (something that 99% of binaries fail to do, and on my system 99% are built with)
control to only install the packages I need
up-to-date graphics
Binary distros fail on all counts for my primary basic needs (arch being the exception on graphics). It's not really about speed, Gentoo is just what I want. There is something to be said for when you benchmark Firefox built from source against Chrome's binaries and you see Chrome getting slaughtered for it. Granted when I build Chromium it crushes Firefox, but still, at least I have that option too. The complete epic and utter failure of Ubuntu to supply decent graphics drivers is also grotesque and disgusting. With what's in Ubuntu's repo's for nVidia drivers is basically them looking end users in the eye....sneering, giving them the middle finger, and then spitting in their faces. Make no bones about it, Ubuntu HATES gamers, and is giving a very clear message that they are to f*** off and go elsewhere. When Vulkan finalizes and is ready for public consumption, Ubuntu will be among the absolute last to adopt it and add proper support (especially given that they don't give a rats you-know-what about graphics users). In my eyes, Gentoo is a distro with devs that matter. There's not too many devs, but quality over quantity, they do great work. Ubuntu can suck it, and hopefully choke on it. I hate em.
If only OSX or Windows could be compiled from the ground up. The people that say there's not much of a difference in speed between binary and source distros, my Steam games beg to differ. Borderlands 2, LFD2, and Unigine Valley are all about 15-25% faster in Gentoo than Ubuntu/Mint installs. |
You heard of Ubuntu's PPA repositories, like oibaf? Are you saying you get everything you need with Gentoo from official portage tree, no overlay's? |
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hasufell
Retired Dev
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| deno wrote: | | You heard of Ubuntu's PPA repositories, like oibaf? Are you saying you get everything you need with Gentoo from official portage tree, no overlay's? |
Definitely not, but compared to other distros like opensuse, debian, fedora and archlinux (apart from following their progress I also have connections to almost all of them)... gentoo is still quite strong in terms of availability of packages in the main tree. |
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augustin
Guru
Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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There are many, many good reasons already listed in this old thread for using Gentoo.
As of 2014, a new reason to prefer Gentoo over other distros is lacking in this thread, though:
Gentoo is about the only long-established distro to offer the choice to run a systemd-free system.
It was this reason that primarily prompted my recent decision to migrate my workstation to Gentoo (switching over from Kubuntu). I have not yet completed the migration, yet, but I am looking forward to it. |
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stephan-t
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2014
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Flexibility, Freedom and Choice.
Install only what i want, and no push to new thing. |
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not a day goes by
n00b
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 8
Location: de
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Like, probably, many new users these days, I went to check out gentoo because of systemd-avoidance. I've been using debian for some years now, but since the latest stable (?) comes with systemd by default, I thought it might be worth to check out gentoo.
Also, I like to fit the system to my needs and like the use-flags system. Got to admit, I haven't understood much of it yet, but it's kind of nice to see which flags can be used and avoided on the various packages, that way forces me to have a (at least quick) glance at everything, before I install it  .
The obvious downside is the compilation time. On most of the smaller packages it's not too bothering, but as a Desktop user I needed e.g. libreoffice and that really took its time on my 10-year-old notebook.
Actually I'm thinking about moving back to a binary distribution and maybe configure debian to use openrc and kick out systemd completely... but since it's fun and at least until the next compilation of libreoffice, I'll stay with gentoo 
There's another point that makes me want to stick to gentoo: The more people use gentoo, the more it will stay a relevant alternative in the linux "ecosystem", at least that's what I like to think.
Btw moving away from systemd is mostly just because I can't be bothered to actually "learn" how it works in depth. The discussions around it pulling stuff in and integrating services that it doesn't have to are and additional momentum, but I have to say that I lack the knowledge to have an educated opinion about that.
Cheers, Stephan |
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stephan-t
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2014
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| not a day goes by wrote: | Like, probably, many new users these days, I went to check out gentoo because of systemd-avoidance. I've been using debian for some years now, but since the latest stable (?) comes with systemd by default, I thought it might be worth to check out gentoo.
Also, I like to fit the system to my needs and like the use-flags system. Got to admit, I haven't understood much of it yet, but it's kind of nice to see which flags can be used and avoided on the various packages, that way forces me to have a (at least quick) glance at everything, before I install it .
The obvious downside is the compilation time. On most of the smaller packages it's not too bothering, but as a Desktop user I needed e.g. libreoffice and that really took its time on my 10-year-old notebook.
Actually I'm thinking about moving back to a binary distribution and maybe configure debian to use openrc and kick out systemd completely... but since it's fun and at least until the next compilation of libreoffice, I'll stay with gentoo
There's another point that makes me want to stick to gentoo: The more people use gentoo, the more it will stay a relevant alternative in the linux "ecosystem", at least that's what I like to think.
Btw moving away from systemd is mostly just because I can't be bothered to actually "learn" how it works in depth. The discussions around it pulling stuff in and integrating services that it doesn't have to are and additional momentum, but I have to say that I lack the knowledge to have an educated opinion about that.
Cheers, Stephan |
At this time Debain cannot use pure sysvinit. udev from the systemd base code and some tools use other package from bogusd. Look at the fork called Devuanwithout systemd, but not yet finished.
Archlinux based distributions can use openrc, but cannot work libsystemd packages. This time I moved to Gentoo, second reason the rolling ideology not like to much, and look Gentoo work hybrid settings.
I also use relative old computer, the first compiling is very long like big packages, after than daily use moderate time as well. |
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mir3x
Guru
Joined: 02 Jun 2012
Posts: 455
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| not a day goes by wrote: | but since it's fun and at least until the next compilation of libreoffice, I'll stay with gentoo
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Small advice - u dont need to compile libreoffice, firefox, chromium ( and maybe some other ) -> u can install libreoffice-bin, firefox-bin, google-chrome
_________________
Sent from Windows |
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not a day goes by
n00b
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 8
Location: de
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mir3x wrote: | | not a day goes by wrote: | but since it's fun and at least until the next compilation of libreoffice, I'll stay with gentoo
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Small advice - u dont need to compile libreoffice, firefox, chromium ( and maybe some other ) -> u can install libreoffice-bin, firefox-bin, google-chrome |
Ah, indeed there's libreoffice-bin! Nice to know. It's obvious I'm only starting to get to know gentoo . Makes it much more comfortable, since I didn't tweak the use flags much anyway. Cheers |
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Logicien
Veteran
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Montréal
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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My last Gentoo and Funtoo installations failed. I change nothing in the configuration after I install the base system binaries. I keep the initial profile, make.conf, etc and it failed to update the system.
Than I retry with Funtoo recently. I used the minimal profile with no global USE flags, only per package USE flags and KEYWORDS with my processor core2 stable binaries amd64. I used my own kernel configuration with Fbcondecor for Splashutils and not Genkernel. I used Seamonkey, LibreOffice and VirtualBox binaries. I start with WindowMaker window manager, than I compiled Lxde and finally Xfce.
I added all applications and programs that I need. So, I tried to choose a road to advoid emerge and compilation errors as much as possible. It have not been perfect. I had to disable some USE flags and the mixed stable and unstable Xfce packages branch are a bit tricky to handle. No Gnome and Kde at all. No Systemd, only Consolekit and Polkit.
Now that my installation is finish, the most common per package USE flags have been move to global ones. I just hope that I will be able to update the world in future. I am proud of my last Funtoo installation. I need at least two distributions for advanced users that I am satisfied with. Arch is ok. I use it for x86_64, x86 and armv7h. Debian Jessie with Systemd is not bad too. I am not a fan of intuitive distributions.
I think the less desktops, laptops, tablets, cellulars and operating systems you need is the best to be able to manage well and deeply as possible what you have. Do you have more of them than your needs?
I always have appreciate Gentoo for ... Fbcondecor/Splashutils and Fontconfig/Freetype Infinality being in the Portage tree. It's the only one who have it in his official repositories I think. I like Funtoo for it use of Git with Portage.
_________________
Paul |
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stephan-t
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2014
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I had same error in past, but rebuild packages work fine a well. I much more like Gentoo than other distribution, because came from Archlinux, and before don't like compiling everything. I sometimes tried Funtoo, but always stayed at Gentoo.
Some settings changed and deprecated in the make.conf. The new way supported git sync.
Read this here |
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bammbamm808
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Besides the aforementioned dependency-resolution, I've recently moved my install to new hardware. Mostly because this is linux, but a lot of that credit going to Gentoo and its community, things went without a hitch.
From my old Phenom II system, I moved my SSD and HDD to a Z97 board with an i7-4790k. Since I had no AMD specific CFLAGS, I merely had to precompile a kernel for my new hardware, and move the drives over. Fstab stayed the same, but I had to chroot off the LiveDVD and run efibootmgr to let my new UEFI firmware know about rEFInd. A simple reboot, 10 minutes in UEFI interface to make sure everything looked as it should, and that rEFInd was indeed noted, and my Gen2 was into its new home. Try that in Windows! Not gonna happen. Linux support and documentation is so good and plentiful, that I have cpufreq working like a charm. The cpu turbos up to 4.4Ghz as needed and never gets above 70C, idling at around half that. The system is rock solid stable. I turned on HT and put MAKEOPTS="-j9" into make.conf, as well. I now compile gcc-4.8.4 in 11 minutes, and after adding -march=core-avx2 as well, did an emerge -e @system and an emerge -e @world, the latter being 814 packages in 4 hours! Just to see, I browsed the web and even watched a video or two during the rebuild, and everything was smooth. Man, I just love linux and Gentoo.
Later, when I want windows on this machine, I'm going to have to reinstall from scratch. What a drag and a waste of time.
_________________
MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk
Ryzen 3900x
32Gb Samsung B-die (16GB dual rank x2) DDR4 @ 3200MHz, cl14
Geforce RTX 2070S 8GB
Samsung m.2 NVME pcie-3.0
Etc.... |
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shadywack
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2012
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| deno wrote: | | shadywack wrote: | I use Gentoo because it suits my needs, plain and simple.
My needs are:
a straightforward way to manage my kernel as an EFI stub kernel
source built binaries aimed right at my Haswell with avx2 (something that 99% of binaries fail to do, and on my system 99% are built with)
control to only install the packages I need
up-to-date graphics
Binary distros fail on all counts for my primary basic needs (arch being the exception on graphics). It's not really about speed, Gentoo is just what I want. There is something to be said for when you benchmark Firefox built from source against Chrome's binaries and you see Chrome getting slaughtered for it. Granted when I build Chromium it crushes Firefox, but still, at least I have that option too. The complete epic and utter failure of Ubuntu to supply decent graphics drivers is also grotesque and disgusting. With what's in Ubuntu's repo's for nVidia drivers is basically them looking end users in the eye....sneering, giving them the middle finger, and then spitting in their faces. Make no bones about it, Ubuntu HATES gamers, and is giving a very clear message that they are to f*** off and go elsewhere. When Vulkan finalizes and is ready for public consumption, Ubuntu will be among the absolute last to adopt it and add proper support (especially given that they don't give a rats you-know-what about graphics users). In my eyes, Gentoo is a distro with devs that matter. There's not too many devs, but quality over quantity, they do great work. Ubuntu can suck it, and hopefully choke on it. I hate em.
If only OSX or Windows could be compiled from the ground up. The people that say there's not much of a difference in speed between binary and source distros, my Steam games beg to differ. Borderlands 2, LFD2, and Unigine Valley are all about 15-25% faster in Gentoo than Ubuntu/Mint installs. |
You heard of Ubuntu's PPA repositories, like oibaf? Are you saying you get everything you need with Gentoo from official portage tree, no overlay's? |
Actually, yes, I do get what I need from the portage tree except for one app called Steam. Why they can have Chrome in the portage tree but not Steam is a mystery to me. I don't really feel the need to use the steam-meta overlay though as it's just a matter of keeping track of the packages Steam expects to have. Things work quite well. Gentoo probably has a vastly superior availability of packages in the portage tree compared to the main repos of any *buntu/Mint distros. Debian too, for that matter. On Ubuntu you load up a mess of PPA's whereas on Gentoo you maybe need one overlay in rare cases. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thank You, bammbamm808. I am planning this exact move and saved your post for reference. I was surprised that binarys compiled for Phenom II would run on an intel system.
May I inquire as to which specific mobo you chose? |
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bammbamm808
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | Thank You, bammbamm808. I am planning this exact move and saved your post for reference. I was surprised that binarys compiled for Phenom II would run on an intel system.
May I inquire as to which specific mobo you chose? |
Asus Z97-a. I don't SLI, and though I have a "K" CPU, am not overclocking. Very nice board with a great full-fledged UEFI implementation. The LAN driver is e1000e. As far as lm-sensors goes, I have only managed to get the CPU temperature monitoring working. Together with i7z, you can keep an eye on your CPU's temps and clocks core-by-core. Turbo mode works flawlessly, though, which you need i7z to confirm. /proc/cpuinfo will not pick up on Turbo clocks.
_________________
MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk
Ryzen 3900x
32Gb Samsung B-die (16GB dual rank x2) DDR4 @ 3200MHz, cl14
Geforce RTX 2070S 8GB
Samsung m.2 NVME pcie-3.0
Etc.... |
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tchiwam
Retired Dev
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Lapland, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Simply for across arch consistency.
I'm a bit bummed on the stable quirks, but it's still pretty good and much better than other platform. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| tchiwam wrote: | Simply for across arch consistency.
I'm a bit bummed on the stable quirks, but it's still pretty good and much better than other platform. |
Do you mean compilation problems in the stable-tree, which only show up on "alternative" architectures (non-x86*) or general problems with stable, as above? |
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sirtisimacg4
n00b
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
... "alternative" architectures (non-x86*)... |
Now that you mention non-x86 ... that is how I found Gentoo since it is the only distro that supports ppc well. I had this imac gathering dust in a closet for many years, then I decided to try loading linux on it - Gentoo was the only disto I could find with a ppc boot image small enough to fit on a CD and boot my imac. I knew nothing about linux at the time, but installing Gentoo turned into an intense learning experience - challenging, but not frustrating. Yes, it is slow, but still very usable. However, support on the ppc forum is practically non-existent now - the experts don't appear to be monitoring it anymore. |
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