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truekaiser
l33t
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 810
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:05 am Post subject: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software |
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Emphasis on 'might' because I am not a lawyer and their may be legalese I am missing.
| Code: | ## Article 14.17: Source Code
1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code
of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the
import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products
containing such software, in its territory.
2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1
is limited to mass-market software or products containing such
software and does not include software used for critical
infrastructure.
3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude:
(a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related
to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts;
or
(b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of
software necessary for that software to comply with laws or
regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement.
4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that
relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders
made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject
to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or
practice of a Party.
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With red-hat's new cooperation with microsoft maybe we are going to see a closed source linux distro if this turns out to be true? |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:10 am Post subject: Re: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software |
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| truekaiser wrote: | | [code]1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. |
truekaiser ... I'm fairly sure that doesn't cover copyleft, copyleft doesn't have "access" as a "condition of import, distribution, sale, or use", it has the right to "copy and distribute" (with conditions) software under the license. This seems to be targeting cases where some party expects (ie, "require[s]") the source code as a conditon of aquiring the "software".
best ... khay |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: Re: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software |
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| Code: | | 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. |
| khayyam wrote: | | I'm fairly sure that doesn't cover copyleft, copyleft doesn't have "access" as a "condition of import, distribution, sale, or use", it has the right to "copy and distribute" (with conditions) software under the license. This seems to be targeting cases where some party expects (ie, "require[s]") the source code as a conditon of aquiring the "software". |
Hmm I disagree on the first, but it does not apply anyway, because only the copyright holder can license the software, so it is not "owned by [another party]" but by the (legal) person/s applying the license to the software released.
So I agree it's intended in the way you outline, but feel sure it will be mangled over time, as Laws usually are; or the Rules, Regulation and Guidance will be used for the same effect.
edit: mangled code tag
Last edited by steveL on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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POSIX_ME_HARDER
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know, party here refers to the governments that sign the treaty.
This would not let them force people to reveal their source code prior to allowing the software in the country.
This does not affect copy-left.
It does however facilitate spying on another country using closed source software (including drivers). |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| what is TPP? |
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khayyam
Watchman
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Location: Room 101
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | what is TPP? |
Trans Pacific Partnership
an open trade agreement between nations around the pacific ocean to spur trade by removing tarrifs etc... comes at a price (especially if you look at the equiv trans Atlantic partnership).
This is between gov't more than industry partners. Its basically capturing one gov't cannot expect to be given sourcecode as a prereq for goods being imported.
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;
Last edited by Naib on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Looks more clear now
I agree to sell you my Cisco NSA ready router, and you agree that you have no rights to asked me the router source code to see what they will do  |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | Looks more clear now
I agree to sell you my Cisco NSA ready router, and you agree that you have no rights to asked me the router source code to see what they will do |
remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations.
"you agree to import these NSA ready Cisco routers without any expectations to view the source"
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0; |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Remember also that these "agreements between nations" have been conducted in secrecy, without any democratic process whatsoever, yet they have the power of Treaty, meaning they bind a nation's legislature and judiciary.
We can vote for what idiot sang the least worst on some crappy show, and we can vote on what flavour of toothpaste we like the most.
We just cannot vote on, nor even know about, matters which actually affect us in reality. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| POSIX_ME_HARDER wrote: | As far as I know, party here refers to the governments that sign the treaty.
This would not let them force people to reveal their source code prior to allowing the software in the country.
This does not affect copy-left.
It does however facilitate spying on another country using closed source software (including drivers). |
Ah OK, my mistake. Let's review that again, given the correct definition:
| Code: | | 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. |
I see what you mean. Effectively: you cannot review for backdoors, or the NSA will have a hissy-fit.. ;)
Recently Windows has started to make a lot more sense: in line with tor, the NSA wants botnets out there: it gives "plausible" deniability, for one, if any leak could be down to someone's crappy OS being compromised by practically everyone. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Remember also that these "agreements between nations" have been conducted in secrecy, without any democratic process whatsoever, yet they have the power of Treaty, meaning they bind a nation's legislature and judiciary. |
- I can spy my citizens, but some senator fucker has made a law that i could only kept their datas for a month.
So i agree to put no taxes when i import your grain, and you agree to kept our citizens datas forever on some server in your country for us. deal?
- But senators and people will complains?
- Don't worry, they won't know, and even if, it's not against our law as they aren't kept in our country.
- Ok deal
- Ready for deal two?
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3526
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
Recently Windows has started to make a lot more sense: in line with tor, the NSA wants botnets out there: it gives "plausible" deniability, for one, if any leak could be down to someone's crappy OS being compromised by practically everyone. |
And there are those that claim this as part of the rationale for systemd.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3498
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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1 appears to refer to resellers rather than developers and users.
2. makes it look even more so. Limitation to mass-market only.
3. makes it even more so, as it explicitly states that the customer can demand source code as a part of a deal.
Finally, open software is based on permissive licenses as in "the developers are willing to share the code", rather than the user demands source code. The above does not say "you must not share code". It says "in some cases you can't demand the code".
Well, at least that's how it looks like from here  |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, it's more worrying on further reflection.
| Code: | | No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. |
This is in fact a standard proviso for the provision of software to many public or municipal authorities.
To ban a nation from applying the same rationale, eg: in healthcare or education, simply hobbles it, deliberately so.
The part about "products containing such software" is also a real concern, both in terms of safety and privacy.
It seems to me a "government" does not, and cannot, have the authority to give away, nor sell or transfer in any form, its citizens' rights. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations. |
And those corporations can sue governments for damages for laws that reduce their profits, i.e. minimum wage, environmental bans.
These suits are in panels consisting soley of corporations, NOT courts of law. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations. |
-- with the effect of Treaty. But in secret, "because democracy."
| Tony0945 wrote: | And those corporations can sue governments for damages for laws that reduce their profits, i.e. minimum wage, environmental bans.
These suits are in panels consisting solely of corporations, NOT courts of law. |
Yeah that setup really is insane. Corporations suing nations on the grounds that the nation has reduced their profit, by looking after its citizens. This is the "international" so-called legal order that realpolitik, which excuses any lie after the event, has given us.
Bring on the revolution. ;-) cos what we have now is plainly a turd. |
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