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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: Mr. T.: Trolling |
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User: Mr. T.
Topic: Best way to update packages from live ebuilds?
Post: post 8212090
Reason: it's very difficult to say what this is about, but could be taken to be a (colourful) attempt at trolling either me or Ant P.
You know, I read that one, too, and didn't pick up on that, but on a second read, I see what you mean. Thanks for reporting. — JRG
Edit: Split from the reporting thread. — JRG |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | User: Mr. T.
Topic: Best way to update packages from live ebuilds?
Post: post 8212090
Reason: it's very difficult to say what this is about, but could be taken to be a (colourful) attempt at trolling either me or Ant P.
You know, I read that one, too, and didn't pick up on that, but on a second read, I see what you mean. Thanks for reporting. — JRG |
The word "troll" is a tote but it is more or less that: I mock your "solution" and the approval of "Ant P.". Nonetheless, I'm sad for a credulous reader.
| Ant P. wrote: | | [...] your example would work for 99.9% of cases I know about [...] |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | Reason: it's very difficult to say what this is about, but could be taken to be a (colourful) attempt at trolling either me or Ant P. |
| Mr. T. wrote: | The word "troll" is a tote but it is more or less that: I mock your "solution" and the approval of "Ant P.". Nonetheless, I'm sad for a credulous reader.
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Mr. T ... ok, so you're trolling, and/or mocking, me ... and rather than show how my "solution" was somehow wrong, or mistaken, or misleading, you thought you'd ply your ignorance ... heheheh. |
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10678
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. T.,
khayyam was just showing what he'd done in the past and asking about the capabilities of smart-live-rebuild. Ant P. was just explaining. As such, I'm not sure what triggered your impulse to descend into mockery.
Most of us are here for two reasons: to get help (to learn) and to provide help (to teach). I often do a little bit of both in my interactions here. I'm dustbinning your post as it does neither and seems mean spirited to me and a Guidelines violation to boot. Please take care that the majority of your posts fit those categories.
- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Last edited by John R. Graham on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam, well, you could have been right but that's not the case (see below a remark about me).
| moderator wrote: | | [...] It might be hyperbolic to say that every single post from you requires correction, but in general, it's not an unreasonable characterization to say that your posts are often hard to follow, are wrong (without acknowledgment of such) at an unpleasantly high rate, and, as the OP noted here, rather unhelpful at an unpleasantly high rate.[...] |
| Mr. T. wrote: | | After reflection, I stop my participation on the Gentoo forum. [...] |
I can explain but I did not want it so it's not because of ignorance. |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham, you can depreciate my contributions and close my account but this will be noted in my blog. |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9320
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| You have a strange habit of unforced errors... |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | khayyam, well, you could have been right but that's not the case (see below a remark about me). |
Mr. T. ... you're not making any sense. What has the fact that your behaviour was moderated to do with me, and/or the code/comment I made in that thread?
| Mr. T. wrote: | | I can explain but I did not want it so it's not because of ignorance. |
No, it has everything to do with ignorance ... unless you're claiming that "what I generally use" doesn't provide a list of 9999 (and so "live") packages. |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam, you obviously lack of empathy to understand me, e.g. a person with a declining view can not become a race driver. The authorities of the forum do not grant a credit to me.
I should justify my point and the fact that I do not do it will probably not change anything. I am in a position of weakness and without the possibility of negotiating or being heard.
It has to be recognized that moderators and administrators constrain their users. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54643
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. T.,
The authorities of the forum do not grant credit to anyone. Forums users stand or fall based on the soundness of their technical skills.
You need to support your assertion | Mr. T. wrote: | | I can explain but I did not want it so it's not because of ignorance. |
or its just that. An empty assertion.
In my native English English, the saying is "Put up or shut up".
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Mr. T.
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | [...] In my native English English, the saying is "Put up or shut up". |
It is your behavior, others could have a behavior in adequacy (or in reaction).
@all: the package manager should manage updates for live packages. khayyam uses qlist and emerge but this operation doesn't manage dependencies correctly. |
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10678
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | ... I am in a position of weakness and without the possibility of negotiating or being heard. .... |
I'm not sure how you can legitimately come to that conclusion. None of your posts have been deleted, nor will they be except under the most extreme of circumstances (talking about illegal activity is the one case that comes to mind). Post here in Gentoo Forums Feedback or report particular posts with the reporting button. We'll definitely listen.
- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Last edited by John R. Graham on Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | khayyam, you obviously lack of empathy to understand me, e.g. a person with a declining view can not become a race driver. The authorities of the forum do not grant a credit to me. |
Mr. T. ... no, I don't understand you because what you say makes absolutely no sense, the above being an example. |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10678
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | @all: the package manager should manage updates for live packages. khayyam uses qlist and emerge but this operation doesn't manage dependencies correctly. |
Actually, it does manage dependencies correctly. What gave you the impression that it didn't?
- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54643
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. T.
| Mr. T. wrote: | | @all: the package manager should manage updates for live packages. |
Why?
Live packages are masked. If you want them, you should know what you are getting into.
Of course, as always, patches are welcome.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | @all: the package manager should manage updates for live packages. khayyam uses qlist and emerge but this operation doesn't manage dependencies correctly. |
Mr. T. ... actually it does, remember that every ebuild includes DEPENDS, and so all dependencies should be resolved for the package(s) to merge. Also, when you say "the package manager should manage updates for live packages", what has this to do with the discussion, we're speaking about solutions to that very problem (ie, smart-live-rebuild) we all know that portage does nothing to help in such management, so saying what "should" happen is entirely beside the point.
best ... khay |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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@John R. Graham: deformations, discredits, abusive qualifications, moving posts in unrelated places as Chat, Feedback or Dustbin.
My interventions are repudiated and I am castigated by administrators, moderators, other users.
@NeddySeagoon: The person wants to update live packages so those packages are explicitly allowed on the system.
@khayyam: someone may consider a collection of installed packages containing "live" dependencies. A package manager could do this operation: see bug 482666.
Have you ever heard about the new Portage fork? |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Seeing someone proclaim they're leaving forever (one of the very few legible statements I've seen) only to come back a few days later to double down on the inane spam with nary an apology or glimmer of self-awareness in sight does not bode well.
Sorry but I'm getting far away from ground zero, now that I can see beyond all reasonable doubt this user is going to be miroR 2.0. That dragged on for years too long last time. |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| @Ant P.: I have never expressed my withdrawal in this way. I meant that I stopped intervening for others. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | @khayyam: someone may consider a collection of installed packages containing "live" dependencies. A package manager could do this operation: see bug 482666. Have you ever heard about the new Portage fork? |
Mr. T. ... so, because there is a fork, that no-one (the OP specifically) is using, any suggestion to use smart-live-rebuild, or qlist, does not answer to the question the OP had asked? ... and anyone who does suggest, or discuss, those things should be mocked for doing so. I see.
best ... khay |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | @Ant P.: I have never expressed my withdrawal in this way. I meant that I stopped intervening for others. |
post 8210676
If that's not what you meant, maybe you should actually say what you mean instead of using a barrage of thesaurus words to obfuscate your own ignorance? That's how we got here. |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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@khayyam: I made a mokery about the use of tools having limitations in the current context. Many people may use the same tools.
Moreover, humor is a protection against aggresive remarks. Here is practical case: How do you print a list of all upgradeable packages ?
I tried the recommanded approach and saw the limitation for a similar utility: eix.
Look at this pastebin: https://pastebin.com/s3Eu4UzB
| Code: | user $ emerge -pqu @world
[ebuild U ] app-text/aspell-0.60.7_rc1 [0.60.6.1-r3] |
| Code: | user $ grep -n dev-libs/boost /usr/portage/sys-apps/paludis/paludis-3.3.0_pre20170808.ebuild
29: <dev-libs/boost-1.65:=[python,${PYTHON_USEDEP}] ) |
| Code: | user $ emerge -pqvc dev-libs/boost
dev-libs/boost-1.63.0 pulled in by:
sys-apps/paludis-3.0.0_pre20170808 requires >=dev-libs/boost-1.41.0:0/1.63.0=[python,python_targets_python2_7(-),-python_single_target_jython2_7(-),-python_single_target_pypy(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_4(-),-python_single_target_python3_5(-),-python_single_target_python3_6(-),python_single_target_python2_7(+)], <dev-libs/boost-1.65:=[python,python_targets_python2_7(-),-python_single_target_jython2_7(-),-python_single_target_pypy(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_4(-),-python_single_target_python3_5(-),-python_single_target_python3_6(-),python_single_target_python2_7(+)] |
eix displays some wrong package updates. Moreover, qlist seems to have been a little derived reading its description.
In addition, the note on the Unix environment and some fortuitous results because of an association between emerge and qlist may be funny.
Nevertheless, this is sad for the credulous reader. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. T. wrote: | | @khayyam: I made a mokery about the use of tools having limitations in the current context. Many people may use the same tools. |
Mr. T. ... which is unwarranted because the "current context" is providing support for the user, not the limitations of currently available tools. Additionally, if your trying to score points by suggesting that neither Ant P. or myself know what it is we're talking about, then this too falls flat, because I very much doubt either of us care if you think it problematic to point people at the currently existing tools we use for updating "live" ebuild. You're acting as though in such discussions only those pointing out the "limitations" have any credibility, when, in fact, what it is you're suggesting is unactionable for the user, and so better fits that criteria.
| Mr. T. wrote: | | Moreover, humor is a protection against aggresive remarks. |
I fail to see anything that could be construed as humour.
| Mr. T. wrote: | | Here is practical case: [...] I tried the recommanded approach and saw the limitation for a similar utility: eix. |
This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Your personal experiences with eix, or stackexchange, are not relevant here.
best ... khay |
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Mr. T.
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Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:31 am Post subject: |
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@khayyam: we disagree about the subject because "exchange spaces" (forums, blogs, etc.) are exploited to make the documentation (Gentoo Wiki).
You will agree (I hope wholeheartedly) that despite our disagreements (of principles) the conversation is sucessful: I expressed myself and I provided an explanation.
In addition, I am pleased to have had the opportunity (the right) to exchange on the forum despite some difficult written passages to accept. |
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10678
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. T.,
It's hard for me to view this interaction as successful. That qlist is definitely broken because eix has an issue? What's more that, although not demonstrated, this issue is so obvious to everyone that it goes without saying that using qlist makes you worthy of derision? That an unimplemented Portage feature mentioned in a bug makes all other implementations suspect? To call this reasoning tenuous is egregiously charitable. In other words, in this case, you're very wrong.
You should know that:- Continually providing incorrect, dangerous, or questionable technical advice, or
- Repeatedly violating forum Guidelines
will eventually get you banned.
We're all here, I believe, because we care about Gentoo and have an interest in it being successful. What you can do is- Double check your answers, even test them out on your Gentoo, before posting them here.
- Keep the Guidelines in mind.
I can honestly say that we'd like to have you as a successful contributing member of our community, so please consider what I've said (and what others have said, too).
- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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