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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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Location: Illinois, USA
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 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Neddyseagoon,
So you are saying it's not evil intent, or poor engineerong practice, but rather incompetence?
It's possible. But I don't think so. I see RedHat as a cancer. A part of the code body that was once functional and good, that then turned malignant and is ultimately going to destroy the body. |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:09 am Post subject: |
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You guys would fit great with steve balmer in the 90's if situations were reversed. fud.
dont you have to use something to be able to talk about it?
steve balmer do you use linux? No it is the devil.
guys do you use systemd? no it is the devil.
ohhh well.
PS I use systemd. Actual systems with systemd. I get to test shit. I get to complain. I get to make bug reports and talk about my own experience. WTF do you guys have? I mean seriously, U're criticizing stuff you don't even have. it's ridiculous. give it a rest. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | U're criticizing stuff you don't even have. it's ridiculous. give it a rest. |
Not stuff, impact of stuff. You are more than welcome to not participate.
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Axl, I don't have to drink rat poison to know that it's bad. Nor do I have to try jumping off a forty story building.
Big monolithic programs are BAD! That's what's happened to Thunderbird and Firefox too. A release every month? An incurable rat's nest of bugs. Or should that be an ant hill of bugs? Once a program gets big and old and the original developrs are gone, it's all over. I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for Linux once Linus retires.
IBM proved long ago (1950's I think) that once a program gets big enough (multiple developers) and old enough, each new bug fix generates more than one new bug.
The only hope is to have many small comprehensible programs and glue them together in well known ways. |
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 121
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | axl wrote: | | U're criticizing stuff you don't even have. it's ridiculous. give it a rest. |
Not stuff, impact of stuff. You are more than welcome to not participate. |
| Tony0945 wrote: | | Axl, I don't have to drink rat poison to know that it's bad. Nor do I have to try jumping off a forty story building. |
++ to both posts
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6065
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | Neddyseagoon,
So you are saying it's not evil intent, or poor engineerong practice, but rather incompetence?
It's possible. But I don't think so. I see RedHat as a cancer. A part of the code body that was once functional and good, that then turned malignant and is ultimately going to destroy the body. |
I think it is a bit of both...
For starters Hanlon's Razor would dictate this is incompetence. Secondly there is zero system engineering going into this. Its shocking... if you do not do system designing, the corner-cases can become you daily operation. Ideally there should be a sysML model of bringing a linux distribution up to the point where userland is self-sufficient (ie could just be a prompt, could cascade lots of other processs... GNOME ....  ). It should also, as a true model be... be implementation agnostic. BDD realising IBD with scenarios justifying and validating activity diagrams.
Then the kernel, init, daemon's would need to adhere to this and no one needs to care how the others do it.
This never occured and it is clear as there are some dumb-ass blocks and problems that arose because of the methodology use to develop. Likewise they are unable to fully appreciate independent tools as their way is orthogonal to everything else and THUS the re-implement (introducing more bugs) because they don't get, they can't inter-operate with anything else..
There are clear instances of retrospectively changing the narrative as to the present outcome and the Freedesktop PR piece about Systemd ok with split usr is clear, especially since udev is a systemd project (which they absorb and mutilated)
Sure there are some end-goals, some idea's which does highlight some intent, but ill thought out
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | Neddyseagoon,
So you are saying it's not evil intent, or poor engineerong practice, but rather incompetence?
It's possible. But I don't think so. I see RedHat as a cancer. A part of the code body that was once functional and good, that then turned malignant and is ultimately going to destroy the body. |
I think it is a bit of both...
For starters Hanlon's Razor would dictate this is incompetence. Secondly there is zero system engineering going into this. Its shocking... if you do not do system designing, the corner-cases can become you daily operation. |
I tend to agree with Naib, I think it's both. It's obvious, at least from past statements that RH wants to be the next 800lb gorilla, ie the microsoft/ibm of the linux world. The incompetence part is that they have no game plan to get there. It's more throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. 
They were behind HAL, until it became painfully obvious that it was the wrong path, but by then udev was working well enough for sys-d to take it over and subsume it, along with trying to force others to adopt sys-d exclusively (early comments from LP and others about udev and non-sys-d systems). And they'll be behind sys-d until it becomes painfully obvious that it bloatedness is really it's death knell. Then it'll be on to something else. HAL was once the darling, in the limelight just as sys-d is now, and it was created exactly the same way, hodge-podge until it got in its own way.
All just my opinions, of course.
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Tony0945,
I don't think systemd is any worse that the rest of the linux ecosystem for lack of systems design, planning and so on.
The difference is that the rest of linux ecosystem was saved by the "do one thing and do it well" philosophy.
Lots of small programs, each well understood, with well defined boundaries. mostly with competition too.
systemd does not follow that philosophy. Its a lot of separate functions but do they have well defined boundaries?
I suspect not, or why they suggestion from systemd that the kernel and systemd should be updated in lockstep?
There is no competiton. eudev and elogingd don't count. Today, they chase systemd.
Think about the following ...
| C.A.R. Hoare wrote: | | There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. |
If you regard failing to appreciate the "do one thing and do it well" philosophy and not putting measures in place to ensure the systemd design was sound as incompetence, then I agree.
I think its more a business objective. Build an obscure wrapper around the kernel that no one outside of RH understands, then force userland to interact with the kernel via the wrapper.
Windows already does something similar.
Once the kernel is isolated from userland, RH have vendor lock in.
Then, I'm an old cynical retired systems engineer. :)
None of this is new ... I saved this wee gem as a reminder about history repeating itself.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | The difference is that the rest of linux ecosystem was saved by the "do one thing and do it well" philosophy.
Lots of small programs, each well understood, with well defined boundaries. mostly with competition too.
systemd does not follow that philosophy. Its a lot of separate functions but do they have well defined boundaries?
I suspect not, or why they suggestion from systemd that the kernel and systemd should be updated in lockstep? |
My point exactly.
You say you are a retired systems engineer. I'm a retired embedded systems engineer. I last worked for a consulting company. A defined testable specification was "de rigueur" to avoid contract lawsuits. A High-level design was then developed and published, so that additional programmers knew how their piece fit in. Even on a one-man job this was done so that another engineer could take over the reins if necessary. The client got a copy of this too, in case of disputes. Only then was code written. Generally a separate test crew developed the test spec from the specification, often the client's test people as they were familiar with their industry's test standards. When a package was accepted, there were no bugs, period. I was cheif architect of a high voltage power switching system that switch a whole plant from one power line to another in one cycle so that critical production like photographic film making, and semiconductor manufacture continued without even a blink. I know for a fact that for ten years at least there were NO reported bugs. Aircraft control systems (which I have not worked on) are another area that must be bug-free. The Boeing 737 MAX is a travesty of embedded control from what I have read. Microsoft has everyone thinking bugs are normal. They are. Letting bugs escape to final release is a cause for shame.
However, I'm afraid my participation int this thread has doomed it I'm sorry. We need a free forum somewhere to discuss these these without jackbooted censors. |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9280
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | However, I'm afraid my participation int this thread has doomed it I'm sorry. We need a free forum somewhere to discuss these these without jackbooted censors. |
This thread is not even discussed there.  |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6148
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | I think its more a business objective. Build an obscure wrapper around the kernel that no one outside of RH understands, then force userland to interact with the kernel via the wrapper.
Windows already does something similar.
Once the kernel is isolated from userland, RH have vendor lock in. |
Kind of what I've been saying for a while, RH really can't take the linux kernel and make it their own, so the next best thing is to do what windows did.
I don't know how many remember that windows was originally just a wrapper around dos, then over time subsumed it completely so that you couldn't change it out for something else, I remember there being other "desktops" than windows at least early on, up till around dos 3-4.
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Neddy, you make it sound way too complicated. As far as I can tell, and i've heard this one before, during the creation of e17. for a brief time, E was selected to be the new linux WM for phones (press at the time... rumors). and things and ideas were thrown around. back in 2000s I think. And lots of what was discussed, was around the idea of having control over the kernel. I'm sorry to say, but user, kernel, root, elevation of permissions. stuff like that.
Now... 10 years have passed, and the corporate interests behind systemd push the same stuff. and the traditionalists push back for the same reasons.
You guys might (and probably are) right in checking each dependency, figuring out it actually doesn't need this that or the other.
And that is simply cause, and again, I said this before, you can start a computer compiled with systemd, and start it with init=/bin/bash and reach init (what was it in openrc terms? init 4) X11, and use said machine just like there is no systemd on it. even though there is. do it all manually. and if you can do it manually, you can manage to make some scripts for your computer to start your computer, and therefor systemd is JUST some USE flag dependency. but not your init system.
SO AGAIN, keeping things simple, systemd is a complex way to maintain devices and permissions. or should be. it's what it's trying so desperately to be. a way to replace you, and me, or the admin. again, I go back to E17, that one of the missed opportunities. I heard at one point motorola considered and tried gnome for a go. didn't work out so well. that's all there is. I think. device management and permissions.
See, if you want your machine to be your machine, you go to the source, you do what you have to do to keep your machine as ... your machine. And to you guys, congrats. btw, systemd is written is C. someone will say: they do not accept patches. someone else will say: why does systemd require updates so often. so pick your battles.
AND AGAIN, I said this a few times, not all people are you. Maybe some people want a linux phone, or tablet, or laptop or whatever, but don't expect the same type of freedom as you guys enjoy.
And I think, this is what it is about about. Freedom. Some people want ALL OF IT. Some people want NONE of it. I like you, want all of it. But to do that, I TAKE it. I don't ask others to give it to me. When this systemd came along, Not once did I complain. I took it. not like... i'm stupid, I let systemd do it all. remember, I only need a kernel and a functioning mount/chroot command to do... whatever. a system is a system. doesn't matter the init. when there's a door, there's a way.
But my freedom is not trampled by systemd. My intelligence is by your constant complaining and frankly the echo chamber. You guys don't do anything constructive about it. for instance, there is talk about an overlay. after so many years... why there isn't one? on other types of social media daniel robbins is making a fuss that his version is openrc by default.
When this systemd came about, I wasn't active on the forums. Prolly for the best, or I would have been IN the echo chamber. Didn't share with people my linux problems at that time. So I had to just do it. And I did it. And here is the part that I'm gonna repeat. I told myself: you can't go into an interview and tell some hr person that you have a philosophical point of view about systemd. You can only have one philosophical point a view in an interview and mine is that I use linux. Can't go overboard and overuse it. DO NOT say in an interview you will only use gentoo. and ONLY if it's openrc. that interview will not go well.
finally I want to leave you with one thought... cheesy, but necessary. Do it for linux. Accept systemd because you want linux to be more broadly used. and to be more broadly used it has to be more user accessible (should see some of the facebook questions I see... WITH SYSTEMD and WITH ... EVERY IMAGINABLE HELPER POSSIBLE... it's so frustrating... I know... but do it for the n00bs, WHILE maintaining your freedom over your machines... or just consider it. or at least try it in a vm, or learn it for job interviews.
I don't know how, but just get over it. openrc or systemd really doesn't change anything about the rest of the machine when you know both. it's a zero sum game for me. and should be for all of you. all that contributed in this thread. I mean, I watched you guys. I know what you know. Systemd is just an imaginary hump. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | And that is simply cause, and again, I said this before, you can start a computer compiled with systemd, and start it with init=/bin/bash and reach init (what was it in openrc terms? init 4) X11, and use said machine just like there is no systemd on it. even though there is. do it all manually. and if you can do it manually, you can manage to make some scripts for your computer to start your computer, and therefor systemd is JUST some USE flag dependency. but not your init system. |
If systemd was just a use flag, I don't think any of us would care... I only became involved in the debate when WilliamH got the Council to allow devs to break separate /usr in order to cripple other init systems. If systemd has a shortcoming, let it be systemd's problem, not a problem for those of us that don't use it. Today, that has extended to systemd and related packages (systemd, anything from FDO, gnome, etc) stomping all over our systems even though we don't use it. I shouldn't have to conform to systemd's limitations if I don't want to use it. If that means I can't use an upstream package because they chose to depend on systemd, so be it - I stayed with gnome 1.2 for years after gnome 2.0 came out because they stripped out a ton of functionality that was important to me. I'm fine with that... but don't break upstream Gentoo just because the RH barely-thought-out bonehead idea of the week seems cool.
| Quote: |
SO AGAIN, keeping things simple, systemd is a complex way to maintain devices and permissions. or should be. it's what it's trying so desperately to be. a way to replace you, and me, or the admin. again, I go back to E17, that one of the missed opportunities. I heard at one point motorola considered and tried gnome for a go. didn't work out so well. that's all there is. I think. device management and permissions. |
That's just it... systemd was just an init system, now it's a kitchen sink full of NIH syndrome, interlocking mechanisms with no forethought of design, and bugs that are going to end up being security and stability nightmares, and RH has used it's power to leverage it into many parts of the system.
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But my freedom is not trampled by systemd. My intelligence is by your constant complaining and frankly the echo chamber. You guys don't do anything constructive about it. for instance, there is talk about an overlay. after so many years... why there isn't one? on other types of social media daniel robbins is making a fuss that his version is openrc by default. |
If you haven't noticed, most of us ARE running private overlays to limit the damage of systemd on our boxes. What we, or at least I, don't have, is time to support anyone else wanting to use my overlay. If the need became great enough, I could easily see us pitching in with each other or maybe even moving over to Funtoo as our base.
| Quote: |
When this systemd came about, I wasn't active on the forums. Prolly for the best, or I would have been IN the echo chamber. Didn't share with people my linux problems at that time. So I had to just do it. And I did it. And here is the part that I'm gonna repeat. I told myself: you can't go into an interview and tell some hr person that you have a philosophical point of view about systemd. You can only have one philosophical point a view in an interview and mine is that I use linux. Can't go overboard and overuse it. DO NOT say in an interview you will only use gentoo. and ONLY if it's openrc. that interview will not go well. |
Actually, I think a number of us are in the position where we're the ones making such decisions rather than applying for lower level jobs.
| Quote: |
finally I want to leave you with one thought... cheesy, but necessary. Do it for linux. Accept systemd because you want linux to be more broadly used. and to be more broadly used it has to be more user accessible (should see some of the facebook questions I see... WITH SYSTEMD and WITH ... EVERY IMAGINABLE HELPER POSSIBLE... it's so frustrating... I know... but do it for the n00bs, WHILE maintaining your freedom over your machines... or just consider it. or at least try it in a vm, or learn it for job interviews.
I don't know how, but just get over it. openrc or systemd really doesn't change anything about the rest of the machine when you know both. it's a zero sum game for me. and should be for all of you. all that contributed in this thread. I mean, I watched you guys. I know what you know. Systemd is just an imaginary hump. |
If you want to use systemd, why are you using Gentoo instead of RHEL, Centos or Fedora? If you're just going to use a Red Hat clone, why not go right to the source?
What we're fighting is bigger that systemd, we're fighting to maintain our freedom and the freedom of all Linux users. I will not bow to any authoritarian dictator, be it in my meat space life or my computing life.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Split off Tony0945 / from "/usr merge" (locked for now) and related posts.
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | axl wrote: | | And that is simply cause, and again, I said this before, you can start a computer compiled with systemd, and start it with init=/bin/bash and reach init (what was it in openrc terms? init 4) X11, and use said machine just like there is no systemd on it. even though there is. do it all manually. and if you can do it manually, you can manage to make some scripts for your computer to start your computer, and therefor systemd is JUST some USE flag dependency. but not your init system. |
If systemd was just a use flag, I don't think any of us would care... I only became involved in the debate when WilliamH got the Council to allow devs to break separate /usr in order to cripple other init systems. If systemd has a shortcoming, let it be systemd's problem, not a problem for those of us that don't use it. Today, that has extended to systemd and related packages (systemd, anything from FDO, gnome, etc) stomping all over our systems even though we don't use it. I shouldn't have to conform to systemd's limitations if I don't want to use it. If that means I can't use an upstream package because they chose to depend on systemd, so be it - I stayed with gnome 1.2 for years after gnome 2.0 came out because they stripped out a ton of functionality that was important to me. I'm fine with that... but don't break upstream Gentoo just because the RH barely-thought-out bonehead idea of the week seems cool.
| Quote: |
SO AGAIN, keeping things simple, systemd is a complex way to maintain devices and permissions. or should be. it's what it's trying so desperately to be. a way to replace you, and me, or the admin. again, I go back to E17, that one of the missed opportunities. I heard at one point motorola considered and tried gnome for a go. didn't work out so well. that's all there is. I think. device management and permissions. |
That's just it... systemd was just an init system, now it's a kitchen sink full of NIH syndrome, interlocking mechanisms with no forethought of design, and bugs that are going to end up being security and stability nightmares, and RH has used it's power to leverage it into many parts of the system.
| Quote: |
But my freedom is not trampled by systemd. My intelligence is by your constant complaining and frankly the echo chamber. You guys don't do anything constructive about it. for instance, there is talk about an overlay. after so many years... why there isn't one? on other types of social media daniel robbins is making a fuss that his version is openrc by default. |
If you haven't noticed, most of us ARE running private overlays to limit the damage of systemd on our boxes. What we, or at least I, don't have, is time to support anyone else wanting to use my overlay. If the need became great enough, I could easily see us pitching in with each other or maybe even moving over to Funtoo as our base.
| Quote: |
When this systemd came about, I wasn't active on the forums. Prolly for the best, or I would have been IN the echo chamber. Didn't share with people my linux problems at that time. So I had to just do it. And I did it. And here is the part that I'm gonna repeat. I told myself: you can't go into an interview and tell some hr person that you have a philosophical point of view about systemd. You can only have one philosophical point a view in an interview and mine is that I use linux. Can't go overboard and overuse it. DO NOT say in an interview you will only use gentoo. and ONLY if it's openrc. that interview will not go well. |
Actually, I think a number of us are in the position where we're the ones making such decisions rather than applying for lower level jobs.
| Quote: |
finally I want to leave you with one thought... cheesy, but necessary. Do it for linux. Accept systemd because you want linux to be more broadly used. and to be more broadly used it has to be more user accessible (should see some of the facebook questions I see... WITH SYSTEMD and WITH ... EVERY IMAGINABLE HELPER POSSIBLE... it's so frustrating... I know... but do it for the n00bs, WHILE maintaining your freedom over your machines... or just consider it. or at least try it in a vm, or learn it for job interviews.
I don't know how, but just get over it. openrc or systemd really doesn't change anything about the rest of the machine when you know both. it's a zero sum game for me. and should be for all of you. all that contributed in this thread. I mean, I watched you guys. I know what you know. Systemd is just an imaginary hump. |
If you want to use systemd, why are you using Gentoo instead of RHEL, Centos or Fedora? If you're just going to use a Red Hat clone, why not go right to the source?
What we're fighting is bigger that systemd, we're fighting to maintain our freedom and the freedom of all Linux users. I will not bow to any authoritarian dictator, be it in my meat space life or my computing life.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. |
All good points. I do not represent systemd or RH. I'm just another nobody.
But it seems to me, people that live near the ocean are more likely to never drown. or maybe it's just a fantasy of mine.
I'll never stop saying this. source code available. if you "Think" there's something going on... you could just check. competence is in the eye of the beholder, or of the pack. in which case...
but then on the other hand, people, humans, need stories to bind them all together. May it be "systemd sux" or ... mind you "linux sux".
if you were to choose one. just one, which which you choose?
Would you choose linux to be forever linux/unix, never changing, never adapting, always being yours and only yours, but nobody else cares about linux.
OR linux has systemd. linux sux. but all of a sudden more people want linux. more n00bs. (kinda of a recurring nightmare I've been having). but... it's a choice.
And it is our choice. I'm not making it on my own. each and every one of you is making it as you're reading this. one... of the many choices.
PS... I know I'm a drunk, but the reaction to this was WAY better then I expected. Maybe you are willing to make some compromises. In which case, thanks and congrats. Don't know what else to say. |
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Muso
Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1052
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | axl wrote: | | U're criticizing stuff you don't even have. it's ridiculous. give it a rest. |
Not stuff, impact of stuff. You are more than welcome to not participate. |
++
Upstream changes with major distros have an effect on all of us.
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"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop! |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: |
All good points. I do not represent systemd or RH. I'm just another nobody.
But it seems to me, people that live near the ocean are more likely to never drown. or maybe it's just a fantasy of mine. |
People that live near an ocean are dramatically more likely to drown than people that never live near an ocean but also don't travel to one.
| Quote: |
I'll never stop saying this. source code available. if you "Think" there's something going on... you could just check. competence is in the eye of the beholder, or of the pack. in which case... |
A good many of the people opposing the systemd steamroller in these threads are competent C programmers, myself included... However, is it easier to manage 1.2 million lines of code in C (which is notorious for hidden exploits and systemd has already had some pretty bad egg-on-face ones, where they were awarded a Pwnie) and other languages or a few dozen lines of POSIX shell script? Most sysadmins aren't necessarily strong coders, so which is more accessible to them?
One of the many arguments the systemd proponents use, is the simplicity of the units file, but that completely belies the millions of lines of code behind those couple lines and the problems that they bring, including all of the non-designed interaction between components added and replaced ad-hoc, the risk of privilege escalations, the problems caused by NIH syndrome where they feel the need to keep adding kitchen sinks only to cause more bugs, etc.
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if you were to choose one. just one, which which you choose?
Would you choose linux to be forever linux/unix, never changing, never adapting, always being yours and only yours, but nobody else cares about linux.
OR linux has systemd. linux sux. but all of a sudden more people want linux. more n00bs. (kinda of a recurring nightmare I've been having). but... it's a choice. |
If I wanted to use Windows, I would use Windows. If I wanted to use OS X, I'd use OS X.
I've been using Linux in some capacity or another since 1993 because it can be customized to my needs (my #1 reason, by far) and because it's stable and relatively secure. Systemd is a direct attack on both fronts - completely eliminating customization options while reducing stability and security.
But your choice is a false equivalence... because Linux, as a kernel specifically, but also as the operating system we've known for two decades before systemd, is always changing and adapting and is adaptable to anyone's needs. That's exactly what allowed systemd to come along in the first place.
And then the systemd option doesn't guarantee more users, and it doesn't automatically make anything newer or better. What it does provide, is vendor lock in and an abstraction away from Linux, the adaptable kernel. Do you really think systemd provides anything to the end user that wasn't already available in Linux or reduces complexity?
Tens of millions of people are already using Linux and they don't even know it and systemd isn't even installed (see: android). So, why do you think systemd the key to the masses?
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And it is our choice. I'm not making it on my own. each and every one of you is making it as you're reading this. one... of the many choices. |
It IS our choice... but it is also our choice to reject the attempt to limit our choices because the proponents of systemd find our existing choices too limiting for systemd... and that's where these threads come in. Certain Gentoo devs want to break our systems, systems where we intentionally do not want systemd, just because Poettering and friends don't care for our use cases. People that want a crippled, poorly thought out system are free to have one, they simply aren't free to infect my system with their delusions.
| Quote: | | PS... I know I'm a drunk, but the reaction to this was WAY better then I expected. Maybe you are willing to make some compromises. In which case, thanks and congrats. Don't know what else to say. |
My compromise - systemd is totally free to exist and do whatever it wants in its own sandbox... but the minute it decides to crap in mine, we have a problem. You're totally free to play in the systemd litter box if you want though.
And that's one of the things the arrogance of the systemd devs and proponents miss - you don't understand my needs so don't force your shortsighted limitations on me. THAT is what we're fighting. |
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sitquietly
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Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 150
Location: On the Wolf River, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | .....you can't go into an interview and tell some hr person that you have a philosophical point of view about systemd. You can only have one philosophical point of view in an interview..... |
I've been reading this and similar conversations in these Gentoo Discussion Forums; I've read everything from axl and I think I understand, I appreciate your argument.
Strangely when I came to the paragraph containing the above quote it just hit me hard and hurt. To have to even think about how an interviewer would think of my "point of view about systemd", or whether I zealously advocate for Gentoo or any other project, or any other matter of my engineering judgement, would hurt like a punch. I'm sorry that anyone has to think about these technologies that way. But I realize that you're probably telling me the truth, the corporate world has changed and everyone has to suck up to the prejudices of HR and the managers or go hungry.
I notice that several of the more vocal, and fun to read, Gentoo users here are, like me, retired engineers who have been responsible for significant systems. I was, and they probably were too, trained -- back in the golden years of American engineering -- to accept responsibility to give management competent and honest technical judgements and recommendations. Doing so often brought me into conflict with managers who didn't want to hear that "Design A" can't work. It was my job and the requirement of my profession to speak as an independent voice giving solid technical advice. Probably some retired engineers are doing that service for the Linux community, and it's bringing them into conflict with decision makers, forum moderators, or even council members, but in the long run we'll see if their warnings should have been heeded.
By the way, no one here has a philosophical point of view about systemd. I haven't read any philosophy here.  Some of the writers in this thread have expressed or linked to discussion of systemd as violating some engineering principles and the term "unix philosophy" may have been used but to dismiss these technical evaluations as philosophy is not valid. It's just not meaningful. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| sitquietly wrote: | | Strangely when I came to the paragraph containing the above quote it just hit me hard and hurt. To have to even think about how an interviewer would think of my "point of view about systemd", or whether I zealously advocate for Gentoo or any other project, or any other matter of my engineering judgement, would hurt like a punch. I'm sorry that anyone has to think about these technologies that way. But I realize that you're probably telling me the truth, the corporate world has changed and everyone has to suck up to the prejudices of HR and the managers or go hungry. |
If a candidate tells me they'll ONLY use X or ONLY do Y, then that candidate might be a future problem. It is highly unlkely that I'd hire the person who declares they will "only use Linux" (on my dime). If I asked "What do you use on your personal systems?", I mostly wouldn't care about the answer other than as a secondary indicator. There are things I don't want to use or have as a primary role, but those are easy to identify and discuss so expectations are clear.
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Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Guys, you have been most kind with your replies. Thank you.
Just to clarify that last point, about the interview. I couldn't explain it to myself: I won't learn this new system. I just couldn't. Not to myself. And as I got to learn it, it fit in some places, didn't fit in others. For me is more freedom. More choices. Because I know how to use it.
That's all I'm saying. Learn how to use it, to satisfy your own self, but really put in the effort, and after that... all the more respect for you. A fair choice.
AND AFTER THAT, sure, you can go into an interview and just smile and say: "I can do both". I like to do that 
I prefer one of them, but I can do both. That's .... we should all be able to say that. And if you think u're smart enough just lie in the interview and change everything to openrc without everyone knowing. more power to you |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | Guys, you have been most kind with your replies. Thank you.
Just to clarify that last point, about the interview. I couldn't explain it to myself: I won't learn this new system. I just couldn't. Not to myself. And as I got to learn it, it fit in some places, didn't fit in others. For me is more freedom. More choices. Because I know how to use it.
That's all I'm saying. Learn how to use it, to satisfy your own self, but really put in the effort, and after that... all the more respect for you. A fair choice.
AND AFTER THAT, sure, you can go into an interview and just smile and say: "I can do both". I like to do that
I prefer one of them, but I can do both. That's .... we should all be able to say that. And if you think u're smart enough just lie in the interview and change everything to openrc without everyone knowing. more power to you |
A job interview is a negotiation between two parties on whether or not to do business with each other... Some people may be eager enough for any job, whether that means using systemd, windows, or CP/M. Some people may take a lower paying job if it means having more time off. Some companies may only want someone familiar with a certain technology. Maybe they want a part time or contract employee instead of a full timer.
I don't need a job... I don't foresee myself ever being in the position of being interviewed for a job again, so it's pointless to invest time in something that isn't relevant to me... and if I were in a place where I needed to negotiate my terms for a job, whether or not I'm forced to use a certain piece of technology is just as negotiable as my salary or my work hours. What I'm negotiating from my standpoint, is my misery index versus the compensation I'll receive... and being farther along in my career, I don't need a job where I'm forced to do something I don't want to do unless you REALLY want to pay me a lot for it. At the same time, there's a kid fresh out of college willing to work for half of the standard rate just to get his foot in the door and he'll not only fetch your coffee, he'll rub your feet too. What he's negotiating is an opportunity. I'm so far beyond that, that I left the ugliness of the computer industry for a completely different field, where I'll still be able to retire before I turn 50 without crunch time, without the stress of knowing if my startup and the shares that I took in lieu of pay will go belly up, etc. I define the terms I'm willing to work under.
If your next job told you that you had to use morse code instead of a keyboard to type, would you take it? Surely, it would be an adventure and a learning experience...
Do I know systemd as well as I know openrc or sysvinit? Nope... and I don't care to. What I do know about systemd is enough to know that I don't need to waste any more time on it, and that includes its proponents messing with my system. But... how can you properly criticize it if you're not willing to use it? The same way I'm able to criticize Scientology without joining a cult, torture without being tortured, or haggis without being Scottish... I'm satisfied enough with my knowledge of systemd to know that I never want to be tortured by using it, especially while eating Haggis and hooked up to an e-meter.
_________________
Ryzen 3700X, Asus Prime X570-Pro, 64 GB DDR4 3200, GeForce GTX 1660 Super
openrc-0.17, ~vanilla-sources, ~nvidia-drivers, ~gcc |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | I don't need a job... I don't foresee myself ever being in the position of being interviewed for a job again |
Well good for you. You win.
But I hope you don't mind, the rest of the world has to move along.
I said this time and time again. It's not about you. Its about linux.
THIS !!!!!! Linux:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ozaFbqg00
I can't overstate ENOUGH: THIS LINUX. not YOUR linux. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:50 am Post subject: |
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BTW. prior to this commercial, such as you see it, as it was at that time, no one took linux seriously.
When IBM made that commercial, you knew: you loose some, you win some. We wanted corporate support and cash but not give away the freedom. We didn't give away the freedom, but from a corporate standpoint, no one got the gold package. No one broke the market.
Balance is a good thing. Gives us good opportunities to reconsider every bit of our position. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| as a professional, i maintain you have to learn both. you can't have a friend come by with a computer and say... neah i can't do that. I am philosophically against it. u're either a professional or not. I maintain it's your own competence at stake. And since all the previous posts didn't go bad, I encourage young people to learn both. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54578
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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axl,
| axl wrote: | | I can't overstate ENOUGH: THIS LINUX. not YOUR linux. |
To me, its all about my Linux. I don't go to job interviews any more. I get the odd phone call and if the work sounds interesting I go along for a social chat and to discuss terms.
If its a job that doesn't interest me, that's the end of the call. I'm at that stage in my career where people come to me.
I've never worked in the "computer industry" either but I've seen enough paid for jobs put together like systemd and go on to fail or become a pile of sticking plasters to not to want to waste any more time on systemd than I can help. Like I say, its not an employment thing for me. My time on systemd is best spent keeping it out of my systems. I intend to have somewhere to go when systemd reaches end of life.
The Linux you refer to will go on to be defined by whatever survives systemd.
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Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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