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| Total Votes : 89 |
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stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 937
Location: Romania
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | stefan11111,
| stefan11111 wrote: | | From my experience, old people are less tech literate the older they are. ... |
I'll nibble. In my experience, younger people want things to just work. They are not interested is what goes on in the background to make it work.
They are beginning to develop an interest with the growing 'right to repair' and the problems that short life gadgets cause.
I'm not sure that that constitutes "tech literate" though.
In the interest of full disclosure, its generally known that I'm an old fart and I admit that I may be biased too. |
Like I said, this forum has proved to me that there are old people that are tech literate, you being one of them.
What I said might be true only in countries like mine, which were under communist rule until 1989, so computers weren't really a thing before that.
May I show you that there are young people(I call myself young) who are interested in low-level stuff and how things work.
From what posts you've made, You are about 4-5 times my age.
_________________
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | its generally known that I'm an old fart and I admit that I may be biased too. |
You're and exception, unfortunately.
In my country I'd say that people born in the 80's are the most tech savvy right now.
The older people, while capable in areas they are proficient, have problems adapting to rapidly changing world. They're not exactly dumb, but stubbornly sticking with their old habits in a completely new environment makes them terribly inefficient. Some of them have been using computers for over 20 years and are still doing it wrong. Typing with 1 finger. Scrolling with mouse and side bars instead of wheel or 2 fingers. Navigating forms with mouse instead of tab. After using computers for 20 years.
Meanwhile the younger people are increasingly raised by the TV and cell phones, and consumer culture instead of their parents and villages. A good child is an out of the way child. Poisons may have something to do with it too.
Anyway, they hardly ever move, so are physically weak beyond comprehension. I happen to know that nobody even attempts to challenge the high scores I set in elementary school about 20 years ago, because it's just so impossible. BTW, I was mediocre athlete. The top students now have a hard time meeting the minimum requirements back then; if we applied the old standards to the new population, most of them would be classified as disabled.
Also, kids born after 2000 tend to be dumb like rocks. Sure, exceptions exist, there will always be an outlier or 2. Still, the downward trend is clearly visible.
So, what 'bout those activity stats from forum's database? You think we could see some? |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54638
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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szatox,
That needs raw database access, which I don't have.
I agree that it would be interesting. I would need to take advice on if such aggregate data could be published or not.
Nobody consented to that when they signed up.
The total IQ in the world is a constant ...
The Raspberry Pi was born out of falling standards too. The total market was estimated to be 10,000 units.
_________________
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5236
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | [...] I agree that it would be interesting. I would need to take advice on if such aggregate data could be published or not. [...] |
We should keep in mind that most users from our 156 thousand users are spammer with one (or two) spam posts (before banned) ... so, we should calculate out them (users AND spam posts) before doing some statistics ... oh, dear, my old SQL heart comes up ... |
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mistah_monocle
n00b
Joined: 04 Mar 2023
Posts: 12
Location: Southern US
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a zoomer and have just started using gentoo!
_________________
doogenhaj |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nobody consented to that when they signed up. |
Well, this is a public forum and all those information are already available to the internet, so I dare say that the act of posting implies consent.
Asking the database directly is just faster than sending a crawler through php interpreter.
This said, I'm not a lawyer, and where law is involved, logic goes out the window, so... Well, it's not like I want you to lose sleep over this.
| Quote: | | The total IQ in the world is a constant ... |
Uhm.... I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, so it may or may not be relevant: It's "normalized", not "constant". The numbers stay the same, but the "unit size" varies.
Convenient, but misleading when you have more than 1 data set.
| Quote: | | We should keep in mind that most users from our 156 thousand users are spammer with one (or two) spam posts (before banned) ... so, we should calculate out them |
Just a gut feeling right now: those data points will form easily identifiable clusters in the data. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54638
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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szatox,
The total IQ in the world is a constant ...
Take it literally. As the number of people grow, it explains why they appear to be dumber, to use your word.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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pingtoo
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1339
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | The total IQ in the world is a constant ...
Take it literally. As the number of people grow, it explains why they appear to be dumber, to use your word. |
+1 
Love this engineer point of view. |
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Leonardo.b
Guru
Joined: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, let me dig out one of my favourite quotes:
| La Rochefocauld wrote: | | Old people are fond of giving good advices, because of they are no longer capable to set bad examples. |
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duane
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 193
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:53 am Post subject: |
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All of the post-millennials in my extended family are more athletic than I was at their age, and none of them has any interest in anything with a keyboard, much less operating systems. They were raised on tablet computers and cell phones. Their intelligence has shifted more toward extended social interactions over networks. They're experts in using network applications and games, as well as a sort of distributed culture that didn't exist when I was young. They also have no interest in television.
I see no reason at all to think that they're less intelligent than any previous generation. At most, they're adapting their intelligence to new conditions better than I ever will.
On the other hand, most of my peers spend most of their free time sitting in front of the boob tube. The more tech-savy ones have console game systems because pc games are more likely to fail. They think of me as the kind of guy who buys a fancy car but never gets to drive it because it's always in pieces in his garage while he rebuilds it. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54638
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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duane,
| Quote: | | I see no reason at all to think that they're less intelligent than any previous generation. At most, they're adapting their intelligence to new conditions better than I ever will. |
Thank you. That's a much better assessment of the situation that mine.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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nikolis
Apprentice
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 200
Location: Athens
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The Generation of 500 |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | At most, they're adapting their intelligence to new conditions better than I ever will. |
I don't consider cutting your finger off an adaptation to being a chef.
Intelligence seems to have 2 very inconvenient traits: we're born with a cap on our potential, and then we need a whole lot of training to reach that potential.
Consuming video entertainment doesn't cut it. Games may or may not do the trick, the category is to vague.
Social media is pure cancer; it's addictive, it gives people depression and self-esteem issues, and on top of that skews perception by locking them in echo chambers.
Anyway, do you have any competent teachers in your social circle? You can ask them about the trends they see. I mentioned athleticism earlier, because I have actually seen some hard data on it so I can point out the downward trend (in my country) as a fact and not my opinion, gut feeling, impression or otherwise fuzzy whatever. Won't be quoting the numbers though.
| Quote: | | On the other hand, most of my peers spend most of their free time sitting in front of the boob tube |
I have some idea why this would be the case.
I estimate USA is a bit over a decade ahead of us. The children I see growing on cellphones right now, passively consuming cheap entertainment will be just like that. It makes sense that you guys are already suffering consequences of the things I see happening around me right now.
| Quote: | | They think of me as the kind of guy who buys a fancy car but never gets to drive it because it's always in pieces in his garage while he rebuilds it. |
Right, for me a car is a tool for getting from point A to B. But I'm glad you've found yourself a hobby.
| Quote: | | That's a much better assessment of the situation that mine. |
I think your assessment was brilliant in its twisted way. And it was hilarious in its twisted way. |
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duane
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 193
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | Games may or may not do the trick, the category is to vague.
Social media is pure cancer; it's addictive, it gives people depression and self-esteem issues, and on top of that skews perception by locking them in echo chambers. |
I keep hearing this, but I wonder how much worse it is than the physical bullying I experienced first-hand as I grew up. In my day, your echo-chamber was your local community, and I'm not sure that was any more enlightened than a distributed community. The only "advantage" I see is that someone would punch you if you got too mouthy... or they just didn't like you... or you were the wrong color.
| szatox wrote: | | Anyway, do you have any competent teachers in your social circle? |
Two of my cousins are/were teachers -- they're concerned about anything that might affect kids, but they haven't mentioned any actual trends. They usually agree with me that the more things change, the more they end up the same. One is a special needs teacher, so she's not as close to the typical children, for what that's worth. I think teachers are strongly discouraged from speculating about the intelligence of their students -- everything is in terms of performance or effectiveness.
| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | They think of me as the kind of guy who buys a fancy car but never gets to drive it because it's always in pieces in his garage while he rebuilds it. |
Right, for me a car is a tool for getting from point A to B. But I'm glad you've found yourself a hobby. |
That was a metaphorical reference to my computers. I thought it was a good description of gentoo in general.  |
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stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 937
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: |
Social media is pure cancer; it's addictive, it gives people depression and self-esteem issues, and on top of that skews perception by locking them in echo chambers.
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True about mainstream media, but this forum is social media too.
| duane wrote: |
| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | They think of me as the kind of guy who buys a fancy car but never gets to drive it because it's always in pieces in his garage while he rebuilds it. |
Right, for me a car is a tool for getting from point A to B. But I'm glad you've found yourself a hobby. |
That was a metaphorical reference to my computers. I thought it was a good description of gentoo in general. |
Gentoo is very stable if you don't tinker with it. For me, computers are a hobby which can also be a job in the future. I don't think of them as tools for accomplishing a task. I want some things from it, but I don't mind if I don't use it for a few days because of my tinkering.
_________________
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22865
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| duane wrote: | | I keep hearing this, but I wonder how much worse it is than the physical bullying I experienced first-hand as I grew up. In my day, your echo-chamber was your local community, and I'm not sure that was any more enlightened than a distributed community. The only "advantage" I see is that someone would punch you if you got too mouthy... or they just didn't like you... or you were the wrong color. |
I think social media offers a few downsides over older forms of abuse. Physical bullying was easier for adults to detect and to mitigate. If you got punched, you came home bruised and/or you complained to the nearest adult and/or other nearby kids would report it (particularly if the attacker was a bully everybody wanted to see get in trouble). The attacker got at least a stern verbal warning, and any ongoing problems could be escalated (school staff, parents, or the police if nothing else worked). On social media, an attacker can say mean things that hurt the child psychologically, and these things may not be clearly illegal enough to interest the authorities. This won't produce any direct bruises, and the child may not report it to his/her parents. Even if they do, options for mitigating it are limited unless the parents are willing to revoke the child's access to social media. (Theoretically all good parents are able to revoke this access. How many will revoke it is a harder question, especially when dealing with the perception that the child has no social contacts outside the to-be-revoked social media.)
Monitoring kids' activities was easier in the days before social media. Back then, if a kid was at home alone in his/her room, even if you didn't look in the room, there were pretty good assumptions you could make about how much trouble he/she was likely to get into. You could usually meet the child's friends, and make some assumptions about whether they were good kids. Now, with smartphones as standard issue, parents must monitor the smartphone use closely or have no idea how warped their kids may be getting. In my opinion, far too few parents monitor as closely as they should, and instead hope that the child will not get into too much trouble on their own. |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I keep hearing this, but I wonder how much worse it is than the physical bullying I experienced first-hand as I grew up |
It's not bullying I'm talking about. When a stranger on the internet is being mean to you, you can just tap the magic X in the corner, and puff, the problem's gone.
Bullying in real life certainly is a problem, it's often mishandled and there surely is room for improvement, but it's a completely different topic.
The first big problem with social media is that it's addictive in the same way as drugs. Getting those likes and comments and pop-up notifications makes you feel good for a short time, but your base happiness goes down every time, cumulatively. Over time, your baseline goes so low, even those brief highs don't reach the normal levels anymore.
Second, you see everyone living perfect lives, which sets an impossible standard for yourself. You can create a perfect story, but you know you're just an impostor. When you compare your real life to your perfect story, or your friends' perfect stories, the only possible conclusion is that your life (and you) suck. It's probably an incorrect conclusion based on obviously cherry-picked dataset, but it's still hard to resist. Also, too many people around discourages developing and maintaining personal relationships.
Finally, the algorithms finding content for never ending scrolls are designed to keep your attention, so you're being fed 2 things: shock content, and "more of the same". This is different to living in a local community. In a local community you still have people with different goals and opinions, different approaches to life, and conflicts you must be able to manage. In social media like YT, FB or TT you mostly get confirmation bias.
| Quote: | | I think teachers are strongly discouraged from speculating about the intelligence of their students -- everything is in terms of performance or effectiveness. |
Im surprised they are allowed to talk about performance and effectiveness at all.
The assumption is that all children are equal, and it's socially unacceptable to group them based on performance. So we have very bored good students wasting time they could spend achieving, lumped together with underperforming students left behind, while average students take the cake, as long as they put the effort in. There is a lot of focus on effort. You can run in circles never getting anywhere, but it's worth the praise as long as you got yourself tired.
| Quote: | | I thought it was a good description of gentoo in general. |
Was good enough. Can be applied to pretty much anything, and details don't really matter in this context.
| Quote: | | On social media, an attacker can say mean things that hurt the child psychologically, and these things may not be clearly illegal enough to interest the authorities |
Sticks and stones.
Do you know where the term "snowflakes" comes from? It's because how easily they melt down.
Unfounded allegations, instigation, other stuff that has real life consequences? Sure, punish the offenders. Name calling? Come up with a better insult to throw in their faces. Or just tap X. It works too.
| Quote: | | In my opinion, far too few parents monitor as closely as they should, and instead hope that the child will not get into too much trouble on their own. |
Well, children tend to actively avoid being monitored in physical space too, but I can't deny it's much easier to create a physical space where they can play and learn and grow up without taking lasting damage.
The internet makes it really tricky, on one hand you want to keep them safe, and on the other violating their privacy and preventing ANY mistakes will have bad consequences too. I guess this one is yet to be figured out. |
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stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 937
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | In social media like YT, FB or TT you mostly get confirmation bias. |
True, but how many gentoo users are on these platforms? YT creators are moving to odysee, but not all, so youtube still has it's use. But FB and TT? These are massive data mining and surveillance engines. What gentoo user uses them?
| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | I think teachers are strongly discouraged from speculating about the intelligence of their students -- everything is in terms of performance or effectiveness. |
Im surprised they are allowed to talk about performance and effectiveness at all.
The assumption is that all children are equal, and it's socially unacceptable to group them based on performance. So we have very bored good students wasting time they could spend achieving, lumped together with underperforming students left behind, while average students take the cake, as long as they put the effort in. There is a lot of focus on effort. You can run in circles never getting anywhere, but it's worth the praise as long as you got yourself tired. |
Don't know how things are in burgerland, but here you get into a high school based on a country-wide exam, though most go to a high school in their county. We also have some middle schools where you get in based on an exam.
Here, nobody assumes all children are equal.
We also have the tests for the olympiad, school-wide, city-wide, county-wide and country-wide. Also, those who are at the top of the class skip school to do sport or other side projects.
_________________
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INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54638
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Team,
After a week of the poll, we have 63 votes cast.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 937
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | Team,
After a week of the poll, we have 63 votes cast. |
Guess not many people actually have an account on this forum.
It seems like there are a lot of people without an account.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
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mike155
Advocate
Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 4438
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting! I thought I were a baby boomer. But it seems that I am Gen X. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54638
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| stefan11111 wrote: | | NeddySeagoon wrote: | Team,
After a week of the poll, we have 63 votes cast. |
Guess not many people actually have an account on this forum.
It seems like there are a lot of people without an account. |
Maybe our members are just shy :)
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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mistah_monocle
n00b
Joined: 04 Mar 2023
Posts: 12
Location: Southern US
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Maybe our members are just shy |
Definitely. I'm shy as heck. Lurked for a while before registering 
_________________
doogenhaj |
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Leonardo.b
Guru
Joined: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the forums.
To be shy is an useless fear, like spider's fear, or height's fear. It is not a personality trait. It can be fixed.
I read quite some interesting books on the matter recently. |
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mistah_monocle
n00b
Joined: 04 Mar 2023
Posts: 12
Location: Southern US
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Leonardo.b wrote: | Welcome to the forums.
To be shy is an useless fear, like spider's fear, or height's fear. It is not a personality trait. It can be fixed.
I read quite some interesting books on the matter recently. |
I like your insight! Pretty deep. That's honestly part of the reason I'm making myself get active on this forum!
_________________
doogenhaj |
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