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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9320
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 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I've had VBox working fine within Plasma Wayland. What was your problem? |
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GDH-gentoo
Veteran
Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1778
Location: South America
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | I've had VBox working fine within Plasma Wayland. |
Is there any special arrangement needed for that? Graphics Controller = VMSVGA for the virtual machine, Guest Additions installed and that's it?
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| Ionen wrote: | | As a packager I just don't want things to get messier with weird build systems and multiple toolchains requirements though |
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Goverp
Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2191
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| greyspoke wrote: | | Well I have used the Plasma Wayland session uneventfully until I switched to tty1 and then switched back to tty7. Instead of my Plasma session I got the ssdm log-in screen, greyed out and inactive. So back to the Plasma X session for now. |
IIUC this isn't wayland's fault, it's SDDM not tracking something properly. I once found my switched sessions on tty 13 upwards, so had to find out the Ctl-Alt sequence to get there!
I gave up entirely on SDDM and displaymanager. Instead I've a profile that starts either command-line, X11 or wayland sessions depending on the tty range (1-3 console, 4-7 X11, 8-11 wayland. I just uninstalled displaymanager and SDDM, and edited /etc/inittab to start getty on all the ttys, and got used to command-line login.
Generally I find wayland sufficiently stable to use it almost all the time. The current glitch was some key/mouse sequence (unknown. but I seem to hit it when trying to change Plasma activities) causes the plasma desktop to vanish - app windows such as firefox and kmail remain open, but I can't get to the desktop or Application Launcher Happened a couple of times a week; not since last week's updates, but that might be luck... The one thing I know doesn't work under wayland is Zoom screen-sharing, though I believe that's fixable - I just haven't gotten around to fixing it.
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greyspoke
Apprentice
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Works fine for me. Are you sure your Plasma session had been on tty7 in the first place? |
Doh, the Plasma session lives at No. 8 and I only tried up to 7. Thanks! |
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wjb
l33t
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 636
Location: Fife, Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | I've had VBox working fine within Plasma Wayland. What was your problem? |
- Boot and login (sddm) to Plasma/KDE with Wayland. Two monitors on this PC. NVidia drivers.
- Start a VM from the GUI VirtualBox Menu.
- VM goes fullscreen on the RH monitor, looks fine
- Move mouse into the VM area and click on something. Or click on the GUI VBox Manager.
- Mouse moves but Plasma stops responding - complete lockup, can't do anything to any window with mouse or keyboard & have to login to console (Ctrl-Alt-F1) to kill VirtualBox then its fine - there's no load on the CPU, it just appears to be sitting there.
- Googling (virtualbox freeze in wayland) around found similar issues but nothing really jumped out as solution.
- The VMs have different video controllers VBoxVGA, VBoxSVG, VMSVGA, some have 3D H/W accn enabled. Two different Windows versions and several different Linux. Rebooted after each lockup. I didn't get round to trying a non-gui Linux.
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_will.420_
n00b
Joined: 23 Mar 2021
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| I used wayland on a ThinkPad for like 6 months and it worked great, there was no screen tearing, everything opened up instantly and it didn't eat all my resources, but then I treid it on Nvidia and it just straight up didn't work, I went back to Xorg because I want a universal experience across all my systems. In my case im going to wait. |
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Location: Devon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys, I decided to give it a try again. Years ago, it was a disaster.
I am reinstalling the software with wayland global USE. Let's see what happens.
In the meantime, I am trying to gather info about the pros and cons, and I stumbled upon this:
https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277
Is this for real? Should I be worried?
I use Zoom (app), teams (app), and Google Meet (Chromium)... |
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stefan11111
l33t
Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 937
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: |
I use Zoom (app), teams (app), and Google Meet (Chromium)... |
Sure you aren't too foss?
Add facebook, instagram and all the shiny new proprietary things in there for good measure.
At this point, wayland is the least of your problems.
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INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev" |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3807
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Let's keep the discussion in topic and avoid any provocations.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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Goverp
Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2191
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | ...
I use Zoom (app), teams (app), and Google Meet (Chromium)... |
I have a dual setup so I can start either wayland or X sessions. I almost always use wayland now. The only thing that needs X for me is Zoom if I want to share my screen; just sitting in a Zoom session works fine with wayland.
Occasionally under wayland KDE loses its desktop (replaced with a grey screen); Alt F2 brings drops down a command entry box and I can log out from there, and try again.
I've not gone through that list you linked to; some of those defects are years old, and wayland has improved significantly in that time period.
I dropped SDDM and greeters, and just use getty to start terminal sessions, and just run a script that's equivalent to startx or the start command for wayland, depending. SDDM only brings pretty pictures, wallpaper that doesn't agree with my desktop, and bugs .
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3807
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Isn't zoom an electron 'app'?
I've heard the problem is that developers are sometimes very lazy to adopt a new electron framework for their project. And it's that exact reason why some of those programs fail to run under wayland. In addition to that, even if the program is recently updated it can still have some gaping security holes because of the underlying framework not being updated for few years.
That's the problem with electron - it's not a library you can update separately from the actual program.
In such cases the best is to open a bug in upstream... I realized I sounded very sarcastic in that sentence. I doubt it's not very easy to get in contact with zoom electron devs...
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Location: Devon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:53 am Post subject: |
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@stefan11111 some people work. Maybe you don't, but some do. End of discussion.
@Goverp, thank you.
Guys, my problem is solved
I just can't run Wayland. Why?
I don't see any option for running Gnome with Wayland in my .
And:
| Code: | $ echo $WAYLAND_DISPLAY
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| Code: | $echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE
x11
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/etc/conf.d/display-manager
| Code: | | DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm" |
Maybe it is a SOFT warning not to switch to Wayland |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3807
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | | I don't see any option for running Gnome with Wayland in my . |
Gnome does support wayland. Unless you're using nVidia GPU.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
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Location: Devon
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Location: Devon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I managed to run Wayland.
Sorry, guys, it is a joke.
Chromium is slow, guake is not running.
It has more lag than X11. It is unusable!
I am returning to x11, removing wayland USE and all it installed.
It is an immature product. |
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cornplayz256
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 107
Location: /dev/mmcblk0
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:15 am Post subject: |
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sure, i use a intel UHD 600 (in an intel celeron n4000) and wayland runs pretty fine, but i sometimes switch to xorg for apps that isn't fully (partitally which can have bugs) supported on wayland (like wine, dolphin-emu).
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6184
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | I managed to run Wayland.
Sorry, guys, it is a joke.
Chromium is slow, guake is not running.
It has more lag than X11. It is unusable!
I am returning to x11, removing wayland USE and all it installed.
It is an immature product. |
Perhaps it is unusable for you for many others it works well.
But when you throw nvidia, gnome, a few other things in the mix, it's hard to say it's waylands problem.
I've long removed any traces of X, and run a straight wayland experience.
And though there are occasional glitches, it's no worse, than X11 was in 2000, for example.
Go with what works for you, X, wayland or just straight console mode.
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | I managed to run Wayland.
Sorry, guys, it is a joke.
Chromium is slow, guake is not running.
It has more lag than X11. It is unusable!
I am returning to x11, removing wayland USE and all it installed.
It is an immature product. |
Unless you changed the settings, Chromium will still want to launch via X11 and thus XWayland will be used and depending on your GPU (and chromium settings) this may or may not be smooth.
What you need todo is configure Chromium to use its wayland render (OZONE)
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Location: Devon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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I found many issues like this one:
https://forum.manjaro.org/t/wayland-session-not-working/73886/19
| Quote: | Perhaps it is unusable for you for many others it works well.
But when you throw nvidia, gnome, and a few other things in the mix, it's hard to say it's waylands problem. |
I know that this may be a pointless discussion, but I strongly disagree with your opinion.
Wayland should work out of the box with what people are using. For me, Gnome has been my only desktop since probably 2002. I started using Linux in 1998. As for Nvidia, I have to use it because of CUDA and my work.
People here and there are saying that Wayland is superior. No, it's not:) It is just very unusable software. I gave it 30 min Chromium and Fireforx are slow as hell, guake even slower, all my keyboard shortcuts are gone, and it is just the beggining.. are you serious? many if not most of these issues I linked earlier are still there 
I just want to show the real, "objective" situation with Wayland. For some people it works almost without issues, for others it is a disaster. I repeat: disaster.
| Quote: | | And though there are occasional glitches, |
No glitches for x11:) nothing:)
| Quote: | | Go with what works for you |
And this should be general advice.
| Quote: | Unless you changed the settings, Chromium will still want to launch via X11 and thus XWayland will be used and depending on your GPU (and chromium settings) this may or may not be smooth.
What you need todo is configure Chromium to use its wayland render (OZONE) |
I know, but what about the other software? And overall, I got a slower system. others, like in the thread I posted in this post reported the same thing. A very slow system on Wayland.
I think we just need to wait a couple of years to use it. |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3807
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | I've long removed any traces of X, and run a straight wayland experience.
And though there are occasional glitches, it's no worse, than X11 was in 2000, for example. |
Same here.
I think the problems with performance arise when there's either no support for some oddball program even in Xwayland env or some programs still have configuration for X environment (Chromium and Electron apps are the most common example).
Then there's Nvidia. I don't have experience with that, but it seems it's still a problem with wayland. I had last Nvidia GPU about 13 years ago and there's a reason for it. Although I could get one nowdays if it was fully supported by nouveau.
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| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20544
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | I've long removed any traces of X, and run a straight wayland experience.
And though there are occasional glitches, it's no worse, than X11 was in 2000, for example. |
I've been toying with the idea of exploring another window manager. i3 is close to ideal, but it lacks in a few usability areas.
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kj184050
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Location: Devon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Guys, one more thing.
Wayland's support in major Desktop environments, Windows desktop managers, etc. is just poor as far as I can see.
quoting:
https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
| Quote: | Desktops
GNOME (supported since 3.20+)
KDE Plasma (supported since 5.4+)
KDE Plasma requires the non-default plasma-workspace-wayland package to be installed. This is often enough for basic functionality, however you are recommended to read the detailed wiki section for KDE on Wayland, especially if you are using an NVIDIA GPU.
Enlightenment (unsupported)
Hawaii (unsupported)
Cinnamon (unsupported)
MATE (unsupported)
XFCE (unsupported) |
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/wayland
| Quote: | Display managers
Name Runs itself on Wayland? Description
GDM Yes GNOME display manager.
greetd Wayland greeter available Minimal and flexible login daemon.
LightDM No Cross-desktop display manager.
Ly No TUI display manager written in C
SDDM Yes QML-based display manager.
tbsm No Simple CLI session launcher written in pure bash. |
Lightdm is unsupported... It is used by many desktops by default.
It seems like Wayland is still under development and you have to be aware that jumping into it can cause you problems.
I think that because of that Wayland is switched off by default in many distributions. In Gentoo it is blocked by | Code: | | /lib/udev/rules.d/61-gdm.rules |
at least in my system.
Now I understand why, and why I should leave it untouched;)
I wonder how long it will take for Wayland to take over X11. On paper, it looks really good, but it needs more adoption.
IMO a good implementation of Wayland would be invisible to a user in any negative way. We are not here, unfortunately.
Many people can't just use their desktops as they should (no keyboard shortcuts, delays, no screen sharing, etc). All these glitches are unacceptable.
So let's wait for a final product. But you know what bothers me the most?
Let's imagine that person x switches to Wayland. In the beginning, everything is fine. But after some time, this person would like to use some unsupported software.
It is possible that this person would not even recognise the problem.
I am just saying that you can't encourage anyone to use something which is not fully supported. I am not referring to this thread.
Look how much time I lost just to recognise that Wayland causes nothing but issues in my system.
Now, I have a question to all using Wayland: Please, be honest and list all the issues you have.
This can help save some time for people reading this thread.
I am honest. I am using x11 and I have ZERO issues |
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rfx
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Apr 2023
Posts: 147
Location: de-by
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | Now, I have a question to all using Wayland: Please, be honest and list all the issues you have.
This can help save some time for people reading this thread. |
I use plasma. The only problem I'm aware of is that on my favorite browser (Brave) the icon is gone after pinning. But I can live with it https://iili.io/JH0jsdg.png Strangely, this does not occur on Debian
I'm not a professional in all the technical background, but as I understand it, the problem with Wayland is not Wayland, but the implementation of the Windows manager from the Wayland protocol and there are some who do it better than others. Plasma would like to fix a lot of known bugs for the upcoming version 6 so that everything runs more smoothly and I'm really looking forward to it https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bug-Fixing-Plasma-6 |
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sMueggli
Guru
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| kj184050 wrote: | Wayland's support in major Desktop environments, Windows desktop managers, etc. is just poor as far as I can see.
quoting:
https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
| Quote: | Desktops
GNOME (supported since 3.20+)
KDE Plasma (supported since 5.4+)
KDE Plasma requires the non-default plasma-workspace-wayland package to be installed. This is often enough for basic functionality, however you are recommended to read the detailed wiki section for KDE on Wayland, especially if you are using an NVIDIA GPU.
Enlightenment (unsupported)
Hawaii (unsupported)
Cinnamon (unsupported)
MATE (unsupported)
XFCE (unsupported) |
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And? Some desktops need to do some work to be Wayland-ready. Other desktops already have done this work. And some desktops/window manager will not move to Wayland (e.g. i3wm).
| kj184050 wrote: |
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/wayland
| Quote: | Display managers
Name Runs itself on Wayland? Description
GDM Yes GNOME display manager.
greetd Wayland greeter available Minimal and flexible login daemon.
LightDM No Cross-desktop display manager.
Ly No TUI display manager written in C
SDDM Yes QML-based display manager.
tbsm No Simple CLI session launcher written in pure bash. |
Lightdm is unsupported... It is used by many desktops by default.
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Is that a problem of the Wayland protocol?
| kj184050 wrote: |
It seems like Wayland is still under development and you have to be aware that jumping into it can cause you problems.
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Yes, Wayland is still under development. But that is a good sign. X11 is in "maintenance-only" mode and will not be further developed. Mainly because the design is not good and the code is very hard to understand.
| kj184050 wrote: | | Now, I have a question to all using Wayland: Please, be honest and list all the issues you have. |
I am using Sway with Xwayland since several years and have overall no problems. The only thing I did not manage on Gentoo is to configure Flameshot to work under Wayland. But this is again a application-specific problem and not a problem of the Wayland protocol per se.
| kj184050 wrote: |
I am honest. I am using x11 and I have ZERO issues |
That is no problem. If you want to use X11, then use it. But the conclusion that Wayland is broken, just because you were not able to configure it, is not necessarily the correct conclusion. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6184
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:00 am Post subject: |
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As far as problems with wayland, I don't have any, I do have some problems with features being added to some
programs (usually end user requests) but that has nothing to do with wayland or X, per se.
And a fyi, xfce4 is being ported to wayland. Though it's a work in progress.
| sMueggli wrote: | | kj184050 wrote: |
I am honest. I am using x11 and I have ZERO issues |
That is no problem. If you want to use X11, then use it. But the conclusion that Wayland is broken, just because you were not able to configure it, is not necessarily the correct conclusion. |
That's what I said earlier, but it evidently went in one ear and out the other.
| pjp wrote: | | I've been toying with the idea of exploring another window manager. i3 is close to ideal, but it lacks in a few usability areas. |
When I was straight X, I preferred wm's like openbox, a floating wm.
But I'm using a hyprland, a dynamic tiling compositor with the ability to have floating windows,
so I've configured it to look like a stacking wm.
If you get used to i3, then going to wayland via sway is a pretty easy swap, as it's similar but wayland based not X.
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