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Dominique_71
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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am Post subject: GNOME will drop X.Org session support |
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They will make a 3 steps move: first switch, then disable and then remove all xorg-related code.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/GNOME-MR-Drop-X11-Session
Thomas Adam wrote on #fvwm, and I think he is right:
| Quote: | | The more alarming change will be when the widget libraries stop supporting X11 -- *then* you won't be able to compile anything to native Xorg any more -- which means you're stuck with XWayland which -- as a shim -- only emulates so much at the moment. So I am not sure how projects are going to transition, but I suspect it will be bumpy. |
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grknight
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Joined: 20 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The GIMP author comments on the MR basically saying: "Be feature complete on Wayland compared to X11 before considering this. It's not there yet" |
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Dominique_71
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Location: Switzerland (Romandie)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| grknight wrote: | | The GIMP author comments on the MR basically saying: "Be feature complete on Wayland compared to X11 before considering this. It's not there yet" |
Nice! Rest to see is this will be ported to xwayland. |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway, wlroots seam very interesting for building a wayland composer that will have a good X11 compatibilty, and maybe allow us to run software like fvwm into wayland: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | Anyway, wlroots seam very interesting for building a wayland compositor that will have a good X11 compatibilty, and maybe allow us to run software like fvwm into wayland: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots |
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tld
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I can't be the only one who has a "cold dead fingers" stance on Xorg. I keep hoping that someone forks it or otherwise takes over some level of maintenance. Gnome support doesn't affect me.
My opinion of the freedesktop.org devs in general is only slightly better than the systemd dweebs frankly.
Tom |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | I keep hoping that someone forks it or otherwise takes over some level of maintenance. |
OpenBSD has Xenocara, which is kind of a fork of X11.
Also XFCE is going to use wlroots when switching to wayland. I would assume they want to have good backwards compability with X11.
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ChrisJumper
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 2403
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dominique_71, its because Xorg is full of security bugs. Wayland may be too and will have fixes in future, but handle the Network and D-Bus Layer for security in a modern way. And this is what other say.
I am hold in a secret universe where some say its too old code and too verbose to Network attackers. And on the other modern way (Windows, MacOS, Android..) the System integrated snitching APIs, collecting telemetry Data... or just Words uesed Code while autocorretion of words typed in. So we have snitching systems.
Not sure what is best, however i trust Wayland... |
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flexibeast
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 487
Location: Naarm/Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | OpenBSD has Xenocara, which is kind of a fork of X11. |
Though, as an OpenBSD user, i'm seeing active efforts to get Wayland working on OpenBSD. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:15 am Post subject: |
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The problem with xorg, is that it's grown willy-nilly over the years, and nobody really understands all of it, and the interrelationship between the various pieces.
Thus they are afraid to do to much tinkering to it. It's kind of like pickup sticks 
The only way to properly clean it up is to rewrite vast portions of the code, a massive undertaking.
And that would take time and very few developers are interested in doing this.
Thus wayland ....
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tld
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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It's a sad state of affairs for sure. Literally everything I read tells me that Wayland is still a buggy piece of crap. The idea of giving up X11 forwarding alone almost makes me physically ill.
I use a very minimal desktop with fluxbox. I suspect that's the polar opposite of anything that the jackasses as freedesktop.org give a crap about. In fact, the ONLY issues I've had in recent years were because of bullshit they they've pulled with GTK-3 etc. It's important to keep in mind just who these folks are...and that they don't give a crap about anything but Gnome:
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/tag/gtk3/
But I digress. This...sucks.
EDIT: It also kills me how everyone's buying into the "X11 is full of security issues" thing, yet we're supposed to believe that a piece of software that old enough to get a driver's license and still sucks is clean as a whistle? But again...I digress.
Tom |
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Naib
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: |
EDIT: It also kills me how everyone's buying into the "X11 is full of security issues" thing, yet we're supposed to believe that a piece of software that old enough to get a driver's license and still sucks is clean as a whistle? But again...I digress.
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Politics ... All software is full of bugs FACT, some result in a security issue and aspects of Xorg mean the attack surface is larger (networking....). The issue isn't that there could be security bugs, the issue is noone wants to support it. Wayland has security bugs but people are supporting it.
RedHat is walking away from supporting xorg and there is noone else that is stepping up to support it so if noone is going to keep the codebase secure, bug free AND advancing w.r.t. new technology (to itself or the wider stack) what is going to happen? its being deprecated via no support not because it is no longer viable
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saellaven
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | tld wrote: |
EDIT: It also kills me how everyone's buying into the "X11 is full of security issues" thing, yet we're supposed to believe that a piece of software that old enough to get a driver's license and still sucks is clean as a whistle? But again...I digress.
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Politics ... All software is full of bugs FACT, some result in a security issue and aspects of Xorg mean the attack surface is larger (networking....). The issue isn't that there could be security bugs, the issue is noone wants to support it. Wayland has security bugs but people are supporting it.
RedHat is walking away from supporting xorg and there is noone else that is stepping up to support it so if noone is going to keep the codebase secure, bug free AND advancing w.r.t. new technology (to itself or the wider stack) what is going to happen? its being deprecated via no support not because it is no longer viable |
Until Wayland has some method of network forwarding, Wayland itself isn't viable for my use case... So I'll take something that's old but works over something that's new, buggy, and lacking required functionality.
The push for Wayland mimics and comes from the same people that pushed systemd, which is just as buggy, unstable, and broken.
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CaptainBlood
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3999
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | Until Wayland has some method of network forwarding... |
Just got monitor broken on main rig here.
Ever since | Code: | | ssh -YC user@<ip4_adress> "Xapp_to_launch param" |
has been ruling here, as a workaround.
Unsure tha same could be achieved against wayland.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | The push for Wayland mimics and comes from the same people that pushed systemd, which is just as buggy, unstable, and broken. |
This x1000. Having to switch to Wayland reminds me very much of being forced to switch to systemd. In fact, Wayland would likely have a much bigger impact on the way I do things. The most notable reason is the near total lack of truly minimal window managers that support Wayland. When I say "truly minimal" I mean along the lines of Fluxbox. Most notably, the fact that it's entire configuration is based on a few editable text files in one place...NOT much to ask. You can keep all these bloated black-box desktop environments.
None of this should be a surprise frankly. Anyone who hasn't figured out that powerful forces have been hellbent on turning Linux into Windows for a long time now hasn't been paying attention.
Tom |
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | The only way to properly clean it up is to rewrite vast portions of the code, a massive undertaking.
And that would take time and very few developers are interested in doing this.
Thus wayland .... |
Wayland's initial release was apparently in September 2008. 15 years and counting. I wonder how much could have been accomplished in that time.
| Naib wrote: | | RedHat is walking away from supporting xorg |
Ironic that Red Hat has historically acted in ways that aren't dissimilar to IBM.
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: |
None of this should be a surprise frankly. Anyone who hasn't figured out that powerful forces have been hellbent on turning Linux into Windows for a long time now hasn't been paying attention.
Tom |
Good news, systemd-bsod (yes that is BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH...) has been merged so a significant step towards this
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/28077
| Quote: | Following Poettering's guidance, I created this bsod tool.
Currently it just tries to fetch the oldest message from the current boot with a log level of "emergency", and prints it to a console.
Subsequently, I have to modify it to take over the entire screen, turn it blue, and display the QR code. |
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#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
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tld
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Posts: 1852
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Good news, systemd-bsod (yes that is BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH...) |
OMG...Made my day. I swear I had to do a double take to make sure that wasn't like an onion site parody or something. 
Tom |
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Leonardo.b
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Joined: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: | | Though, as an OpenBSD user, i'm seeing active efforts to get Wayland working on OpenBSD. |
Hmm. For example?
Ahahahaha. |
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flexibeast
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 487
Location: Naarm/Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Leonardo.b wrote: | | flexibeast wrote: | | Though, as an OpenBSD user, i'm seeing active efforts to get Wayland working on OpenBSD. |
Hmm. For example? |
Posts to the ports-changes list, e.g. this, this and this. |
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flexibeast
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 487
Location: Naarm/Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| CaptainBlood wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | Until Wayland has some method of network forwarding... |
Just got monitor broken on main rig here.
Ever since | Code: | | ssh -YC user@<ip4_adress> "Xapp_to_launch param" |
has been ruling here, as a workaround.
Unsure tha same could be achieved against wayland. |
Haven't yet tried using it myself, but there's waypipe. |
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Leonardo.b
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Joined: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I've read a paper about Xorg internals, and it is very complicated.
Wayland aims to be simpler, so I feel positive toward it.
Intetesting.
So far I never tried Wayland, because of all popular compositors required me to install udev, PAM, dbus, or logind.
It's not mandatory by design though. |
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NeglectedRudderPug
n00b
Joined: 04 Oct 2023
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | tld wrote: |
None of this should be a surprise frankly. Anyone who hasn't figured out that powerful forces have been hellbent on turning Linux into Windows for a long time now hasn't been paying attention.
Tom |
Good news, systemd-bsod (yes that is BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH...) has been merged so a significant step towards this
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/28077
| Quote: | Following Poettering's guidance, I created this bsod tool.
Currently it just tries to fetch the oldest message from the current boot with a log level of "emergency", and prints it to a console.
Subsequently, I have to modify it to take over the entire screen, turn it blue, and display the QR code. |
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Had to login to ask.. is that BSOD an "actual" thing or some kind of joke, mocking Windows?
In my experience when Linux flatout dies during boot, it will spit something out anyway. In fact, replacing that output with only one error message and a blue screen could hinder diagnostics, by making you miss a potentially more relevent message! What am I supposed to do with a flipping QR code? Give me the logs! 
I really hope that's a joke. |
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Hu
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 23088
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| It does not appear to be a joke. Based on some bad experiences I had with Ubuntu's systemd, I think the issue is that someone decided it would be a good idea to use a meaningless splash screen by default, hiding all kernel log messages so that the system can show a logo and a spinner during startup. Later, someone else realized that having log messages is actually useful. Rather than admit that splash screens are bad, this tool is an attempt to work around the problem by exposing some subset of what you would have seen if the system had never forced a splash screen in the first place. |
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usr99
n00b
Joined: 19 Aug 2021
Posts: 38
Location: on the ethernet
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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another UNIX WARS (tm), now it's on the display server.
before it was System-d vs SysV, before gnome 2 vs gnome 3, what next? break more standards which worked well before.
for me It'll end with gnome-X and gnome-Wayland forks in the middle
Last edited by usr99 on Sun Nov 12, 2023 9:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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