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Should OTW return? |
yes |
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29% |
[ 10 ] |
no |
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47% |
[ 16 ] |
no because redhat |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
yes because redhat |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
bad actors |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
small number of deplorables |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
ban me |
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14% |
[ 5 ] |
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Total Votes : 34 |
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mrbassie l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013 Posts: 821 Location: over here
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Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 5:17 pm Post subject: Should OTW return? |
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Answers in sentences only.
No conferring, no eating, no cheating, no looking out of windows, no slang, no slide rules.
Use text(?) only, via a keyboard if possible.
You may use dividers but not on eachother.
No'one, you're in charge.
EDIT: added a couple on a whim to make it more equitable.
EDIT the second: to make they more equitable.
Hmm, I was sure I put the Frog Jenkins poll option in. _________________ I spent a christmas in Vienna twenty something years ago. It was a beautiful city. Everyone was so friendly.
Last edited by mrbassie on Sat May 04, 2024 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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turtles Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1696
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kimchi_sg Advocate
Joined: 26 Nov 2004 Posts: 3038
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 10:31 am Post subject: |
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no because it will turn incendiary real quick. |
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eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9819 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Did most of the people who mostly/only posted on OTW/OTW20 are no longer active on FGO?
There's a lot of people who I used to "see" but no longer do after OTW went away seeming to imply the above... _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
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szatox Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3409
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | no because it will turn incendiary real quick. | Why do you care? OTW wasn't included in forum search, so it's not like you'd get burned by accident. You had to explicitly go there to read it.
Looks quite reasonable to me. _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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saellaven l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 654
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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eccerr0r wrote: | Did most of the people who mostly/only posted on OTW/OTW20 are no longer active on FGO?
There's a lot of people who I used to "see" but no longer do after OTW went away seeming to imply the above... |
Off the top of my head, just Boney and Cokey...
I definitely participate less here. I've been busy with work and I continue to be less than happy with the direction Gentoo is going, but a certain group of devs have driven off a lot of interest and/or devs over the years, isolating power. It just seems pointless to debate about it. I remain ready to bail and move to funtoo or make my own sandbox to play in.
OTW getting nuked was another attempt by that group to consolidate their control and to push away people that disagree.
I miss otw20.com. We had some great discussions over there. _________________ Ryzen 3700X, Asus Prime X570-Pro, 64 GB DDR4 3200, GeForce GTX 1660 Super
openrc-0.17, ~vanilla-sources, ~nvidia-drivers, ~gcc |
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turtles Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1696
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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saellaven wrote: | eccerr0r wrote: | Did most of the people who mostly/only posted on OTW/OTW20 are no longer active on FGO?
There's a lot of people who I used to "see" but no longer do after OTW went away seeming to imply the above... |
Off the top of my head, just Boney and Cokey... |
Has anyone herd from Cokey lately?
Its strange how otw20.com suddenly went off line I think there was a post on gentoo reddit about it, but no one ever said what happened. _________________ Donate to Gentoo |
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Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3686 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think OTW was closed because:- Politics ruin everything
- A nightmare to moderate
So basically because we can't be civil.
But, well, you can try to blame RedHat/IBM for its closure if you want. ;) _________________ ..: Zucca :..
My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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saellaven l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 654
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Zucca wrote: | But, well, you can try to blame RedHat/IBM for its closure if you want. |
Nah, just a couple self important devs that don't even really participate in the forums but feel the need to control everything (some of those people, and past devs like them, kept me from wanting to go through the process of becoming a dev. Participation is down, but that's good for their power/ego.). _________________ Ryzen 3700X, Asus Prime X570-Pro, 64 GB DDR4 3200, GeForce GTX 1660 Super
openrc-0.17, ~vanilla-sources, ~nvidia-drivers, ~gcc |
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kgdrenefort Guru
Joined: 19 Sep 2023 Posts: 312 Location: Somewhere in the 77
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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saellaven wrote: | Zucca wrote: | But, well, you can try to blame RedHat/IBM for its closure if you want. |
Nah, just a couple self important devs that don't even really participate in the forums but feel the need to control everything (some of those people, and past devs like them, kept me from wanting to go through the process of becoming a dev. Participation is down, but that's good for their power/ego.). |
Every one knows Gentoo is dead since 2004 … _________________ Traduction wiki, pour praticiper.
Custom logos/biz card/website. |
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szatox Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3409
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Politics ruin everything - that's arguable, even I have a bunch of friends literally on the opposite end of the spectrum. It's not as big deal as burgerboys would have us believe. Don't ask my salary though
A nightmare to moderate - that misses the point of this subforum, doesn't it? Just leave it unmoderated, this approach should be fine for "everything goes" corner. One thing that could have been done differently is hiding it from guests. That webarchive link to old OTW suggests it was publicly available; setting it to private would make it far lower profile.
Quote: | Its strange how otw20.com suddenly went off line | Yeah, that's a great question. Does anyone know what happened? _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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Hu Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 22602
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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The moderation team did follow a fairly light touch with Off The Wall. Eventually, certain people (who shall remain nameless as I honestly do not recall who it was, and I am not inclined to try to research it now) felt the level of moderation was inadequate and pushed for it to be closed. I think the idea of restricting it to authenticated users was discussed as an alternative back then, but closure was what happened instead. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54577 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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turtles,
turtles wrote: | Its strange how otw20.com suddenly went off line ... |
If I told you I would need to shoot you :)
I voted no because I do not think it should return in its old wild form.
If it were a religion/politics/sport free forum, then maybe, but then it would no longer be OTW _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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mrbassie l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013 Posts: 821 Location: over here
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Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Whats's the issue with talking about politics or sports or indeed the politics within sports or the sport of politics or how to be sporting in politics or how to be politically sporting or sportingly political or politically sportsmanlike or sportsmanly political and so on.
God I hate football. _________________ I spent a christmas in Vienna twenty something years ago. It was a beautiful city. Everyone was so friendly. |
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eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9819 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's the offensive speech some people use to belittle people who do not agree with their opinion whether it be sports, politics, or religion.
Then this speech is reflective of the site owner because the site owner should have full rights to prune whatever they want.
Offensive speech will generally turn people away from the website. Not everyone but a lot of people because the precipitous drop of the signal to noise ratio.
I didn't bother voting. I just vote with my website clicks. So it's up to the website owners who have the choice to attract people who write offensive speech or people who are willing to help others run Linux... _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
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szatox Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3409
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Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | It's the offensive speech some people use to belittle people who do not agree with their opinion whether it be sports, politics, or religion. | And how exactly is it a problem?
OTW was not pushed on everybody. All participants had to go there of their own volition, which allowed everyone to chose. You go there at your own risk or you stick with the sanitized defaults for moderated risk.
Gentoo is all about choice, isn't it?
Quote: | Then this speech is reflective of the site owner because the site owner should have full rights to prune whatever they want. | Should telephone companies refuse service to people saying things they don't approve?
Basically boils down to "are you a platform or a publisher".
Quote: | So it's up to the website owners who have the choice to attract people who write offensive speech or people who are willing to help others run Linux | This is a false dichotomy.
1) Being polite and being helpful are independent of each other
2) Self-managed Linux is still niche enough to be a realm of rebels; just our existence is offensive to some
3) Life is not a zero-sum game, sometimes people volunteer to help others to achieve their own goals, and that's OK too _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9819 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Since OTW was shown to everyone at first whether you had an account or not, this was a problem, so one who sees this garbage could end up discounting the site as something that one wants to be a member of. I know of some other sites that allowed political speech but hid it from both anonymous view as well as new members, so one needs to be a member for a while before they are exposed to it. This was to prevent bots from creating an account and indexing it, which may be a viable option.
I don't know why I deleted the section about network versus website. Networks (which includes phone companies), because they don't have a visible front that third parties could change their websites should never filter. I haven't totally decided on DNS which could lay on both but that's probably more of a directory service, likewise search engines. And too bad for companies that try to grow so big to do both, once you become both that company needs to deal with this problem? Don't want to? Split and divest, we don't want monopolies anyway.
I don't know why people say life isn't zero sum. There's a LOT of things that are zero sum because there are no simple alternatives. _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
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Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3686 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 7:44 am Post subject: |
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szatox wrote: | Gentoo is all about choice, isn't it? | I know you know that this applies to your Gentoo installations, not Gentoo namespace (websites).
That being said, I'd guess Gentoo (Foundation) doesn't like keeping all kinds of trolls, goblins and orcs in its backyard (reference to OTW being excluded in searches and visible only to logged users) giving death threats to each others (exaggerated).
Having an OTW subforum with no rules still needs rules. Any illegal activity would still be stopped and removed, thus needing moderation. My guess is, it would turn into, what I previously said, a nightmare to moderate.
Then there are the reports. What if user reports another one based on actions on OTW? Should we just ignore the report because the incident happened on the "wild side"?
Also I think I saw topics there started as a serious assistance/advice seeking (non gentoo or linux related), only later to be invaded by trollish comments.
So while OTW would be "anything goes" it really wouldn't be that.
I'd be in for more off-topic subforums with specific topics, but I'm not one who decides that. I'm lucky if I get to vote for changes. _________________ ..: Zucca :..
My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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kgdrenefort Guru
Joined: 19 Sep 2023 Posts: 312 Location: Somewhere in the 77
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
I voted «no».
I was not aware of OTW before this topic, but from what I read here and elsewhere, please don't !
A Gentoo, or any-linux distro, or any OS, forums should not host such talking.
Religion, politics and such are too border-line. Way too much. If only everyone or almost was able to keep talking without getting mad, trolling or run a flame-war, it would be ok.
We all know what will happens, at best the moderator would have a lot of useless works. Worst is giving a terrible, bad, image of the Gentoo community.
We don't need to be edgy, really.
I'll simply ask this question to the partisan of the reborn of OTW: Why don't you simply install your own, self-hosted or what ever, then doing your own kind of moderation ? Why it has to be related to Gentoo, somehow ? If you want to speak with Gentoo users in these context, make you own "club", IRC channel, forum, etc. It has not to be connected to the core of the Gentoo community, please !
First, less than a year ago while I started to talk here and on IRC, I was a bit frustrated: You can't even swear, or merely, since this has to be open to "family", aka persons too sensible for such subject or did not wanting to have unrelated Gentoo discussion, too much.
Now, I think this is perfect as it is: It's a good way to decrease flame-war. These are just a waste of time, energy, gives a very very bad image from the outside to new comer.
OTW isn't, in my opinion, related to Gentoo's «freedom of choice», it's a technical point of view as it: "Gentoo is suitable for power-users needing an «à la carte» distribution", that is not relevant to say Gentoo's about choice (in the context of community), just a lie.
Moderators / Admins are, indeed, masters here. We are no slave, simply, it's like a semi-private club, you can get trowed out if you don't behave, but the entry into this club is free of charge. You want to stay in that club ? Fine. Behave, follow the rules, suggest if you think you have a neat idea and accept if the masters are not willing too. That's it.
Regards,
GASPARD DE RENEFORT Kévin _________________ Traduction wiki, pour praticiper.
Custom logos/biz card/website. |
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szatox Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3409
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Zucca wrote: | szatox wrote: | Gentoo is all about choice, isn't it? | I know you know that this applies to your Gentoo installations, not Gentoo namespace (websites).
| Of course. I also now that rebels don't appreciate being forced to obey arbitrary prohibitions.
eccerr0r wrote: | I don't know why people say life isn't zero sum. There's a LOT of things that are zero sum because there are no simple alternatives. | Because it's not.
Benefiting yourself in a way that benefits others - the smart solution
Benefiting yourself by harming others - banditism
Benefiting others by harming yourself - naivety
Harming yourself and others - stupidity
Only the 2 in the middle can be zero-sum, and usually they aren't. E.g. "taking one for the team" is a naive behavior in the moment, but it might still be worth it if your friend's stakes are higher than yours and you can expect the favor to be returned one day, shifting it to "smart".
kgdrenefort wrote: | Religion, politics and such are too border-line. Way too much. If only everyone or almost was able to keep talking without getting mad, trolling or run a flame-war, it would be ok. | It wasn't all that edgy until social media segregated people into a bunch of incompatible info bubbles confirming their viewpoints. Shutting dissenting voices up only leads to increasing disconnect between them, because they never get the chance to express their perspectives and are never challenged. This is also why political forums don't make any sense - whatever your stance is, you'll just get more of the same.
A hobby forum on the other hand offers some common ground and serves as a good ice-breaker. _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54577 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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szatox,
Quote: | A hobby forum on the other hand offers some common ground and serves as a good ice-breaker. |
Our OTW did not support that theory. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Leonardo.b Guru
Joined: 10 Oct 2020 Posts: 307
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think "Off The Wall" chat should stay on its own domain, to avoid pointless discussions, and to ensure it stays free from censorship and contente moderation.
I liked OTW20 a lot, and I was sad when it went down.
On OTW20 we had enough minds to project, build and shoot a rocket on the moon... maybe in three days.
I'm surprised nobody did set up anything yet.
What's up? |
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pietinger Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 5069 Location: Bavaria
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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I also read in OTW ... there were some interesting discussions ... but also very rude manners. Nothing that I would like to moderate. I was initially against closing OTW because I was afraid that it would spread to other areas of the forum. Fortunately, this did not happen.
I was also a registered user on otw20.com ... mainly to read ... less to participate in discussions (which would be difficult for me as a non-native English speaker anyway). When I think about how often there are misunderstandings when non-native English speakers talk about computer problems, I don't want to know how often there were arguments in OTW when it came to political topics.
There is a point to the rule in English pubs: No politics - no religion ... and in some even the rule: No politics - no religion - no football.
Personally, the only political topics I would be interested in are those related to IT security or encryption. I am horrified to see how surveillance is progressing worldwide ...
... but ...
... we will NOT get OTW back with a probability tending towards 1. It was a Council decision at the time ... and we will soon become an SPI project ... which increases the probability to over 1 _________________ https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger |
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eccerr0r Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 9819 Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Leonardo.b wrote: | On OTW20 we had enough minds to project, build and shoot a rocket on the moon... maybe in three days. |
All talk, convince it's possible, but they all want someone else to build. _________________ Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching? |
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turtles Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1696
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Leonardo.b wrote: |
I liked OTW20 a lot, and I was sad when it went down.
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pietinger wrote: |
I was also a registered user on otw20.com ... mainly to read ... less to participate in discussions (which would be difficult for me as a non-native English |
Do any of you know what happened? _________________ Donate to Gentoo |
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