Gentoo Forums :: View topic - Python 3.12 update

Python 3.12 update

View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Gentoo Forums Forum Index

Portage & Programming

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:55 pm Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

logrusx wrote:

I didn't read a single thread in which the issue was not cause by the user attempting to do something they didn't need to

I'm wasn't talking about users, I was referring to the maintainers who have to pull in and maintain a bunch of unstable patches to support 3.12 where upstream isn't there yet...

Packages worked fine with python 3.11 were you not trying to force them into python 3.12. Having said that.

steve_v wrote:

Particularly with regard to earlier comments on there not being enough maintainers.

Don't take things out of context. That were comments addressing particular matter, namely - we cannot wait for all packages to become 3.12 ready because this won't happen by itself because there aren't enough maintainers. As I said above, ebuilds worked fine with 3.11 so there was no rush to move them to 3.11.

Best Regards,
Georgi

steve_v
Guru
Guru

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 404
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:15 pm Post subject:

logrusx wrote:

were you not trying to force them into python 3.12.

And again, for the gazillionth time, I didn't "force" anything to build against 3.12. Nor did the OPs of several of the other python borkage threads, where I see you are perpetuating the same argument.

One more time, with added emphasis:

steve_v wrote:

Hu wrote:

As part of the planned change, the profiles changed so that, absent local overrides, Portage builds for python3.12 only.

Absent local overrides. Absent as in "not there", as in "no overrides", as in no "forcing" anything results in portage building only for python 3.12.
I can reproduce this behavior any number of ways 'til Sunday, and I'm not going to argue with you or your selective memory any further.
_________________
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

rich0
Developer

Joined: 15 Sep 2002
Posts: 163

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:22 pm Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

If your system was expected to not break if you did nothing, there probably wouldn't have been a news item in the first place.

Gentoo does not provide a guarantee that you can just run emerge -uD world every day and it will just keep working.

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:35 pm Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

logrusx wrote:

were you not trying to force them into python 3.12.

steve_v wrote:

Hu wrote:

As part of the planned change, the profiles changed so that, absent local overrides, Portage builds for python3.12 only.

I think you spent two days wasting time on forums instead of adopting a more mannerly behavior and asking politely what's going on, fixing your issues and moving on with your life.

And yes, you're right, I'm wrong. I hope this gives you much needed peace in life.

Best Regards,
Georgi

ericbish
n00b
n00b

Joined: 27 Apr 2018
Posts: 30

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:12 pm Post subject:

I guess this is probably my 10th gentoo python rodeo or so. Don't blame the Gentoo devs guys, they are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. So much in the OS, and the apps we use is dependent on it, it's really always a shit show. I'll put forth the same suggestions I've made in the past. Unless you have some overwhelming need to upgrade to 3.12, don't. That's right....just kick the can down the road for a month or two. I mean, if you have some sort of gross sec vulnerability that can be easily and remotely exploited that requires the upgrade, or you have some bleeding edge app that requires it...well, disregard. For most normal users...kick the can down the road. In a month or two, all these conflicts will be sorted, and everything will be back right in the world.

To defer:

I'm assuming you've moved to individual files under package.use.

Code:

# review make.conf, remove any py targets...they shouldn't be there.

cd /etc/portage/package.use

## make sure you don't have any stray or forgotten py targets hiding out anywhere and fix them.

grep -r py .

## add the following to it's own file under /etc/portage/package.use

vi python_defer

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_11
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_11

# save that file

emerge --update --deep --newuse world

Follow this with your normal dep clean and such. Enjoy Py 3.11 for another month or two, or 3...or wait until you have to upgrade. Your choice, though personally I'd recommend revisiting in 30 days. To revisit, do a normal sync and @world update, dep clean, and get yourself in a good stable updated state. Open up the file above, comment out both lines and save it. Then run the emerge --update --deep --newuse world command again, see what still needs to be fixed, and adjust fire.

e8root
Tux's lil' helper

Joined: 09 Feb 2024
Posts: 94

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:21 am Post subject:

dev-util/catfish received python3_12 support and this time there was no build no issue with media-libs/opencv build.
My Gentoo now has zero python targets workarounds

Unfortunately Python 3.11 cannot be removed yet because:

Code:

dev-lang/python-3.11.9 pulled in by:
app-crypt/gcr-3.41.1-r2 requires dev-lang/python:3.11
net-libs/nodejs-20.12.1 requires dev-lang/python:3.11[threads(+)]
www-client/seamonkey-2.53.18.2 requires dev-lang/python:3.11[ncurses,sqlite,ssl,threads(+)]

Code:

app-crypt/gcr-3.41.1-r2 pulled in by:
app-crypt/pinentry-1.2.1-r4 requires app-crypt/gcr:0[gtk]
gnome-base/gvfs-1.52.2 requires app-crypt/gcr:0/1=, app-crypt/gcr:0=

app-crypt/pinentry-1.2.1-r4 pulled in by:
app-crypt/gnupg-2.4.5 requires app-crypt/pinentry

gnome-base/gvfs-1.52.2 pulled in by:
xfce-base/thunar-4.18.10 requires >=gnome-base/gvfs-1.18.3[udisks,udev], >=gnome-base/gvfs-1.18.3

Code:

net-libs/nodejs-20.12.1 pulled in by:
dev-qt/qtwebengine-5.15.14_p20240510 requires net-libs/nodejs[ssl]
mail-client/thunderbird-115.11.0 requires net-libs/nodejs
www-client/chromium-125.0.6422.112 requires >=net-libs/nodejs-7.6.0[inspector]
www-client/firefox-126.0.1 requires net-libs/nodejs

_________________
Unix Wars - Episode V: AT&T Strikes Back

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:39 am Post subject:

e8root wrote:

dev-util/catfish received python3_12 support and this time there was no build no issue with media-libs/opencv build.
My Gentoo now has zero python targets workarounds 8)

Unfortunately Python 3.11 cannot be removed yet because:

Code:

I have those too, they seem to be build time dependencies.

Code:

emerge -pvc python:3.11

Calculating dependencies... done!
dev-lang/python-3.11.9 pulled in by:
app-crypt/gcr-3.41.1-r2 requires dev-lang/python:3.11
app-misc/geoclue-2.7.1 requires dev-lang/python:3.11[xml(+)]
dev-cpp/abseil-cpp-20230125.2 requires dev-lang/python:3.11
net-libs/nodejs-20.12.1 requires dev-lang/python:3.11[threads(+)]

>>> No packages selected for removal by depclean

emerge -pvc --with-bdeps=n python:3.11

Calculating dependencies... done!
>>> Calculating removal order...

>>> These are the packages that would be unmerged:

dev-lang/python
selected: 3.11.9
protected: none
omitted: 3.12.3

All selected packages: =dev-lang/python-3.11.9

You can remove them adding --with-bdeps=n your depclean command but if one of those packages gets rebuild for some reason, this will cause python 3.11 to be emerged again. Better stay with it for a while.

Best Regards,
Georgi

szatox
Advocate

Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3343

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:04 am Post subject:

logrusx wrote:

Second, there seem to be some confusion about defaults. Defaults do not exclude fallback. And it's there, I still have 3.11 and a few packages not having a 3.12 version. Did you intentionally hard set the defaults to not have a fallback? Sorry if you've already addressed that above, this discussion became rather long.

No, and that's a part of why the whole thing was quite surprising.

Quote:

Third, following from the second, there are no packages which have no suitable target. Maybe unless they are 3.10 compatible or even older. I'm not aware what's the earliest python available. I think the other day it was 3.9, so unless you have packages that are 3.8 and below, you're covered.

freecad was one high-profile example (has since been updated in portage, but requires a use flag change), cadence, there was also something about fftw, which might be less known, but it's a library, so who knows how many things depend on it. After I modified their ebuilds, emerge started complaining about a bunch of other things and I gave up on untangling it.
_________________
Make Computing Fun Again

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:10 am Post subject:

szatox wrote:

logrusx wrote:

No, and that's a part of why the whole thing was quite surprising.

Disregard that, I'm wrong about it. I failed to take into account dbeps which are the reason for me still having 3.11. Depclean with bdeps disabled wants to clean it but I'm going to hold onto it until a normal depclean cleans it, because I don't want to need to emerge it again if a package with bdep to it needs to be rebuild.

Best Regards,
Georgi

cameta
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1348

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:23 pm Post subject:

Solved my python update to 3.12
1st Add to package.accept_keywords

Code:

=dev-python/protobuf-python-4.22.5 ~amd64
=dev-libs/protobuf-22.5 ~amd64
=app-cdr/cdemu-3.2.5-r1 ~amd64

2nd Follow the safer upgrade procedure.
_________________
Si algo falla LEE el jodido manual, Si sigue fallando LEE BIEN el jodido manual.

bstaletic
Guru
Guru

Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Posts: 318

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:08 pm Post subject:

@cameta Consider making stabilization requests for the packages that you need stabilized for a "proper" python upgrade.

e8root
Tux's lil' helper

Joined: 09 Feb 2024
Posts: 94

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 8:41 pm Post subject:

logrusx wrote:

I have those too, they seem to be build time dependencies.
You can remove them adding --with-bdeps=n your depclean command but if one of those packages gets rebuild for some reason, this will cause python 3.11 to be emerged again. Better stay with it for a while.

Good to know. Maybe I'll include it in one of my stage4 backup scripts... or maybe not.
Probably good to make a test how much it saves space in tarball. There is lots and lots of bdeps packages, 273 in total with some packages like clang 16 so rather long to build. Probably its a good idea to clean that stuff before --emptytree

Otherwise personally I don't mind Python 3.11 existing if its still used by something. Would be worse if that made me need to add USE flags for bazzilion of packages like it was with 32-bit x86_abi for wine.
_________________
Unix Wars - Episode V: AT&T Strikes Back

musv
Advocate

Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 3358
Location: de

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:19 pm Post subject:

Maybe I'm to stupid to resolve this. But for some reason I don't find the guilty package:

Code:

!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy "dev-python/pygments[python_targets_pypy3(-)?,python_targets_python3_10(-)?,python_targets_python3_11(-)?,python_targets_python3_12(-)?]" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- dev-python/pygments-2.18.0::gentoo (masked by: )

(dependency required by "dev-python/docutils-0.20.1-r1::gentoo" [installed])
(dependency required by "dev-python/sphinx-7.2.6::gentoo" [installed])
(dependency required by "dev-python/jinja-3.1.4::gentoo[doc]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/cython-3.0.10::gentoo[doc]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/ruamel-yaml-clib-0.2.8::gentoo" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/ruamel-yaml-0.18.6::gentoo" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/pipenv-2023.12.1-r1::gentoo[-test]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/dparse-0.6.4_beta0::gentoo" [ebuild])

All of the listed packages are available for Python 3.12. What did I overlook?

According to the Gentoo News I put in /etc/portage/package.use/__temp

Code:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_12

ian.au
l33t
l33t

Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 601
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:52 pm Post subject:

musv wrote:

Maybe I'm to stupid to resolve this. But for some reason I don't find the guilty package:

Code:

All of the listed packages are available for Python 3.12. What did I overlook?

According to the Gentoo News I put in /etc/portage/package.use/__temp

Code:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_12

I think that temp package.use fix should be:

Quote:

# 20240601 - new default python short term fix
*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_11 python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_11

myga
Tux's lil' helper

Joined: 12 Jun 2023
Posts: 121

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:42 am Post subject:

curious, did you follow the below steps from the news or you just went straight to the latest python3_12 update (I believe it was at the beginning of the news):

Quote:

-------------------------SNIP-----------------------------------------
Safer upgrade procedure
=======================
A safer approach is to add Python 3.12 support to your system first,
and only then remove Python 3.11. However, note that this involves two
rebuilds of all the affected packages, so it will take noticeably
longer.

First, enable both Python 3.11 and Python 3.12, and then run the upgrade
commands:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_11 python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_11

Then switch PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET and run the second batch of upgrades:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_11 python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_12

Finally, switch to the final version and upgrade:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_12

You may wish to remove the target overrides after the defaults switch.
Alternatively, you can keep them to block the next automatic upgrade
to Python 3.13, and upgrade manually then.

Upgrade commands
================
The Python 3.11 cleanup requires that Python 3.11 is removed from
the complete dependency trees in batch. If some of the
installed packages using an older Python version are not triaged
for the upgrade, the package manager will throw dependency conflicts.
This makes it important that the upgrade is carried via a --deep
--changed-use @world upgrade, as well as that any stray packages
are removed prior to it, e.g.:

emerge --depclean
emerge -1vUD @world
emerge --depclean
--------------------------------------SNIP---------------------------

_________________
[Never break the law to save people. Nope, there aint no heroes here. Unless you are 'Satoshi Nakamoto', that's a true anonymous.]

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:45 am Post subject:

musv wrote:

Edited out because it was wrong

Best Regards,
Georgi

Last edited by logrusx on Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:18 am; edited 3 times in total

pietinger
Moderator

Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 4870
Location: Bavaria

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:08 am Post subject:

logrusx wrote:

This error has nothing to do with python upgrade, dev-python/pygments-2.18.0 is masked by missing keywords. [...]

dev-python/pygments-2.18.0 is stable ->

Code:

$ emerge -pvD pygments

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
Dependency resolution took 2.63 s (backtrack: 0/20).

[ebuild R ] dev-python/pygments-2.18.0::gentoo USE="-test" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_12 (-pypy3) -python3_10 -python3_11 (-python3_13)" 0 KiB

Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 KiB

$ eix dev-python/pygments
[I] dev-python/pygments
Verfügbare Versionen: 2.18.0^t {test PYTHON_TARGETS="pypy3 python3_10 python3_11 python3_12 python3_13"}
Installierte Versionen: 2.18.0^t(12:15:32 03.06.2024)(-test PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_12 -pypy3 -python3_10 -python3_11 -python3_13")
Startseite: https://pygments.org/ https://github.com/pygments/pygments/ https://pypi.org/project/Pygments/
Beschreibung: Pygments is a syntax highlighting package written in Python

_________________
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger

Last edited by pietinger on Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:16 am Post subject:

pietinger wrote:

dev-python/pygments-2.18.0 is stable

You're right. It's so weird when you don't think in your language. Missing keyword as a message and missing keyword as it's really missing (I don't see it) in the output... :D

musv wrote:

Maybe I'm to stupid to resolve this. But for some reason I don't find the guilty package:

Code:

All of the listed packages are available for Python 3.12. What did I overlook?

According to the Gentoo News I put in /etc/portage/package.use/__temp

Code:

*/* PYTHON_TARGETS: -* python3_12
*/* PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET: -* python3_12

Show us the complete command you're running as well as the complete output. Use wgetpaste -ic 'your complete command here' so that we can see the command and its output and your emerge --info as well.

Best Regards,
Georgi

musv
Advocate

Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 3358
Location: de

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:07 am Post subject:

Code:

emerge --info

https://bpa.st/NK3A

Code:

emerge -puDN world

https://bpa.st/A4GQ (Part 1)
https://bpa.st/YORA (Part 2)

Josef.95
Advocate

Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4644
Location: Germany

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:35 am Post subject:

musv wrote:

Code:

emerge --info

https://bpa.st/NK3A

Code:

emerge -puDN world

https://bpa.st/A4GQ (Part 1)
https://bpa.st/YORA (Part 2)

Code:

* Error: circular dependencies:

(dev-python/more-itertools-10.2.0:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) depends on
(dev-python/sphinx-rtd-theme-2.0.0-r1:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) (buildtime)
(dev-python/setuptools-70.0.0:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) (buildtime)
(dev-python/more-itertools-10.2.0:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) (buildtime)

It might be possible to break this cycle
by applying the following change:
- dev-python/more-itertools-10.2.0 (Change USE: -doc)

Note that this change can be reverted, once the package has been installed.

This is probably the main issue.
Best, don't enable USE=doc global in make.conf (better do it per package in package.use).

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:58 am Post subject:

musv wrote:

Code:

emerge --info

https://bpa.st/NK3A

Code:

emerge -puDN world

https://bpa.st/A4GQ (Part 1)
https://bpa.st/YORA (Part 2)

You really need to clean up your make.conf from use flags. Maybe this is really old installation from the times it was common to put use flags in make.conf, but now it can be even harmful. As suggested above, remove doc from it, but there are also plenty many more you should move to package.use.

Also you still have packages that need python 3.11. You can either:

Remove them
Add them to package.use for python 3.11 support
Maybe try to find testing version for them that works or file bugs which is also useful as devs don't know every single package that needs migration.
Defer the upgrade

Best Regards,
Georgi

Last edited by logrusx on Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:04 am; edited 2 times in total

Ralphred
Guru
Guru

Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Posts: 572

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:58 am Post subject:

rich0 wrote:

Gentoo does not provide a guarantee that you can just run emerge -uD world every day and it will just keep working.

Indeed.

We as users need to be fair and look at this from the other side too; if the devs waited until all the packages in portage were 3.12 compatible before changing the default I think we all know that the "human factor" would lead to us staying at 3.11 indefinitely. Whilst this might seem like "another python Gentoo upgrade problem" it really isn't, because we have to tools to deal with it (via package.use). My only gripe (a really childish one if I'm honest) is I have to go and delete the > before the =[atom]-[version] in my package.use/ZZZ_python_compat_temp.

A few upgrades ago I bothered to read python version change log, then scripted the pulling of the sources for everything installed where the ebuild didn't claim support for the new version: 90% of these packages just needed a ebuild update as they were unaffected by of any changes to python itself. I used this to create a few local ebuilds to tide me over, and dropped a few bug reports so maintainers knew there was "noting to do but an ebuild patch". I don't run much as ~arch, but if anyone who does would like me to re-write/automate this as a way for users to have a more productive role in smoothing python version upgrades, and smoother upgrades for the non ~user, let me know and I'll think of a way to "do it properly" instead of some one-off hacky script(s).

musv
Advocate

Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 3358
Location: de

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:28 pm Post subject:

logrusx wrote:

You really need to clean up your make.conf from use flags.

emerge --info seems to merge the flags set for individual packages in /etc/portage/package.use/. My make.conf

Code:

#############################
# Compilerflags
#############################
COMMON_FLAGS="-march=native -O2 -pipe"
CFLAGS="${COMMON_FLAGS}"
CXXFLAGS="${COMMON_FLAGS}"
FCFLAGS="${COMMON_FLAGS}"
FFLAGS="${COMMON_FLAGS}"

#############################
# Portage
#############################
GENTOO_MIRRORS="rsync://mirror.eu.oneandone.net/gentoo/ rsync://ftp.agdsn.de/gentoo rsync://ftp.gwdg.de/gentoo/"

#############################
# Paketkonfiguration
#############################
USE="doc vaapi vulkan -avahi -cdda -cdr -dvd -dvdr
-gnome -kerberos -ldap -modemmanager -networkmanager -zeroconf"
VIDEO_CARDS="amdgpu radeonsi radeon fbdev"
INPUT_DEVICES="libinput"
SANE_BACKENDS="genesys net"

#############################
# Emerge
#############################
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--jobs=32 --load-average=32"
#MAKEOPTS="-j33"

CCACHE_DIR=/var/cache/ccache
CCACHE_SIZE="100G"
DISTCC_DIR=/var/cache/.distcc

#############################
# Sprachen
#############################
LC_MESSAGES=C
# gettext
LINGUAS="de en"
L10N="de de-DE"

logrusx wrote:

Also you still have packages that need python 3.11.

How can I find out, which packages are Python 3.11 only?

Every package I checked of the dependency list was available for Python 3.12. That's my problem.

eeckwrk99
Apprentice

Joined: 14 Mar 2021
Posts: 212
Location: Gentoo forums

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:35 pm Post subject:

musv wrote:

How can I find out, which packages are Python 3.11 only?

There are probably other ways but here is what I usually do (replace X with the appropriate number):

Code:

# emerge -pvc =dev-lang/python-3.11.X

logrusx
Advocate

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2219

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:55 pm Post subject:

musv wrote:

logrusx wrote:

You really need to clean up your make.conf from use flags.

emerge --info seems to merge the flags set for individual packages in /etc/portage/package.use/.

Not it doesn't. But you're right it's merging something. I too have a whole bunch of flags in USE in emerge --info. Those come from the profile.

musv wrote:

My make.conf

Code:

You still need to remove the doc use flag. It's not recommended to be set globally and warnings are even issued here and there and on the Wiki as well

musv wrote:

logrusx wrote:

Also you still have packages that need python 3.11.

How can I find out, which packages are Python 3.11 only?

Every package I checked of the dependency list was available for Python 3.12. That's my problem.

Code:

emerge -pvc python:3.11

Best Regards,
Georgi

Display posts from previous:

	Gentoo Forums Forum Index Portage & Programming	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 3 of 4

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Copyright 2001-2024 Gentoo Foundation, Inc. Designed by Kyle Manna © 2003; Style derived from original subSilver theme. | Hosting by Gossamer Threads Inc. © | Powered by phpBB 2.0.23-gentoo-p11 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Privacy Policy