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Anon-E-moose Watchman
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Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6143 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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szatox wrote: | Pipewire moves data in data streams from sources to sinks. Wireplumber tells it which sinks consume data from which sources.
Anon-E-moose, what do you use for equalizer? |
I started with /usr/share/pipewire/filter-chain/sink-eq6.conf and modified it according to my ears *lol*
Sadly there's not a visual tool for that (at least there wasn't the last time I looked) so it's change, listen, lather-rinse-repeat.
If you want a really good equalizer, with lots of features, https://github.com/Audio4Linux/JDSP4Linux , but I found I was only using
maybe 1-2% of what it was capable of so I swapped to pipewires eq since I only cared about equalization not the other fancy effects.
For patch bays, either qpwgraph (qt app) or helvium (gtk 4), though I find the pw-link program acceptable for most cases.
With that, I can output sound to both headphones and stereo output at the same time, for example.
edit to add: mkdir .config/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d (if it doesn't exist) copy some filter file into that dir and when pipewire is
started it will run files that end with .conf _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland
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rab0171610 Guru
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Pipewire has been relatively trouble free for me as well. I use JamesDSP for equalization personally. I just picked a Graphic Eq setting from the builtin AutoEQ database that sounded as close to my settings on PulseAudio EQ and modified it. I then saved it and created a rule to load it at startup.
There were a lot of headaches with PulseAudio over the years. I had to modify the config files for every machine with PulseAudio. What worked on one machine did not work on a another, it was always system specific and often trial by error as the documentation was difficult for me to understand.
Anyway, my point earlier was that Pipewire is now widely adopted and considered the default among most distros and users. However, it is one thing to say it is an improvement and it is another to say it is a "big leap forward" without specifics as it just sounds like hyperbole to the average Linux user, especially when that statement is alone the basis for recommending to uninstall PulseAudio and install Pipwire instead. "It is a big leap forward."
It seems like every time a project gets abandoned and an new one takes its place to fulfill the same functions (with improvements) I hear the same things but without specifics. Trust me, this is a big leap forward, this is the future, forget about such and such and install this. The old project code was old and bloated so we started from scratch. Forget about that, pretend it never happened, it is horrible, this is great. Pay no attention to the Poettering behind the curtain. It would be nice for people to step out from behind the curtain, give specifics, and be transparent about why the newer replacement projects are better and improved over the previous solutions. I hear the same things about SystemD, for example. SystemD is better than SysVinit. SysVinit is dead, don't use that, its horrible. SystemD is wonderful and new, it is a big leap forward. All the while when asked for specifics, all I ever heard, generally speaking, was SystemD could improve your boot times because it supports parallelization of services.
I don't have an issue with progress, new projects, and change -- I now use SystemD and Pipewire and Wayland. But, I do wish that people promoting these newer, improved replacement projects would provide specifics about the improvements instead of just telling people to switch or else. |
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Anon-E-moose Watchman
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Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6143 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I run wayland, not even xwayland, as I've gotten rid of all X related stuff.
X is not getting new development, wayland is.
In the same way pulse development is going to be abandoned in favor of pipewires, since pipewire is a superset of alsa, pulse and jack.
A big improvement? From an end user perspective, maybe, maybe not. From a developer view, a pretty good improvement.
I've never used pulse, never installed it on my system, as I had no personal use for it, and I stay away from major DE's like gnome or kde
and thus wasn't forced to accept it. But pipewire was easy to install and start using and if I ever want to use pulse or jack in pipewire
it's just a matter of flipping bits. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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mrbassie l33t
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Joined: 31 May 2013 Posts: 812 Location: over here
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Sound on linux is never getting easier, isn't it? |
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Zucca wrote: | lars_the_bear wrote: | FWIW I've found PipeWire to be more reliable that Pulse. By that I mean that it is less prone to run 100% CPU or just stop working for no good reason. | My exact experience right there.
Anon-E-moose wrote: | Pipewire is audio AND video, not just a sound server. | ... Exactly.
A multimedia server if I may say so.
Anon-E-moose wrote: | You can use rtkit or just set the nice priority, and set the pipewire executable
Code: | $ getcap /usr/bin/pipewire
/usr/bin/pipewire cap_sys_nice=eip |
Code: | setcap 'cap_sys_nice=eip' /usr/bin/pipewire |
| Thanks. @mrbassie Try this? |
Thanks both, I'll give it a go. _________________ I spent a christmas in Vienna twenty something years ago. It was a beautiful city. Everyone was so friendly. |
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Anon-E-moose Watchman
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Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6143 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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mrbassie, Do the same thing with wireplumber. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:21 am Post subject: |
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rab0171610 wrote: |
I don't have an issue with progress, new projects, and change[...] |
I do
The problem with 'change' is that it's often driven by forces other than a desire to make improvements. I take a Darwinian view of this: we should resist change, of any kind, so that only the changes that bring genuine, demonstrable benefits get adopted.
I have nothing in principle against Pulse, PipeWire, systemd, Wayland, et al., but they don't make my life any better -- not on balance. So, at present, I don't use them. Maybe one day there will be an innovation in the Linux world that I think is worth adopting.
What really worries me (and I appreciate that this is off-topic) is that most of the big changes I've seen in Linux in the last ten years have been to reduce the barrier to entry. It's all about zero-configuration and point-and-click. There still seems to be, among organizations like Canonical and Red Hat, a feeling that they can attract Windows user to Linux.
But experience has shown that this hasn't happened, and most likely it won't happen. I mean, look at Windows 11 -- if people will still use that crock of s**t, what will it take to convince them to change? Changes that are being made to Linux, on the basis that it will become more appealing to Windows users, are unlikely to benefit me.
So, in general, I am against change, because changes are being made for all the wrong (for me) reasons.
BR, Lars. |
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pietinger Moderator
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:51 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | rab0171610 wrote: |
I don't have an issue with progress, new projects, and change[...] |
I do
The problem with 'change' is that it's often driven by forces other than a desire to make improvements. [...] |
That reminds me of:
https://xkcd.com/619/ _________________ https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger |
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pjp Administrator
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | What really worries me (and I appreciate that this is off-topic) is that most of the big changes I've seen in Linux in the last ten years have been to reduce the barrier to entry. It's all about zero-configuration and point-and-click. There still seems to be, among organizations like Canonical and Red Hat, a feeling that they can attract Windows user to Linux. | There is a point at which doing it the old, manual, tedious way is worth changing. Is it to attract Windows users, or is it do reduce manual, tedious configuration?
lars_the_bear wrote: | But experience has shown that this hasn't happened, and most likely it won't happen. I mean, look at Windows 11 -- if people will still use that crock of s**t, what will it take to convince them to change? Changes that are being made to Linux, on the basis that it will become more appealing to Windows users, are unlikely to benefit me. | For all that Windows is doing to drive users away, Linux' response seems to be "We don't want you either." The only reason I'm using Linux on my laptop / daily use system is due to Windows Telemetry Edition™. And over the last year or few I've been considering throwing in the towel and switching back to WTE™.
lars_the_bear wrote: | So, in general, I am against change, because changes are being made for all the wrong (for me) reasons. | My dislike for some of the changes you mention is that they're half-baked messes or Good Ideas poorly thought out and implemented, if they were thought out at all. Throwing some code over the fence that compiles and saying Solution Sooo Good isn't producing good results. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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pjp wrote: | For all that Windows is doing to drive users away, Linux' response seems to be "We don't want you either." The only reason I'm using Linux on my laptop / daily use system is due to Windows Telemetry Edition™. And over the last year or few I've been considering throwing in the towel and switching back to WTE™.
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I'm not sure about this. I think Canonical wants you very badly. Well, Canonical wants your money, and will take you with it, if you offer enough of it. Red Hat and Suse also want you (and your money) quite badly, but probably not as much if you're not a cloud business. I'm inclined to agree that nobody really wants the everyday, one-off computer user.
Except Google. Google wants you to buy a Chromebook, and become part of their advertising hive-mind. But Chromebook shows, I think, that it's plausible to offer a Linux platform to the small-scale, not-very-technical user. As does Android, to some extent.
And before long even "WTE™" won't be an option, because Microsoft will centralize all their services and offer them through some sort of black-box thin client. Telemetry won't be an issue, because the data of everybody on the planet will be in the same rack.
I don't know if it's the job of the Linux community to take in the waifs and strays that Google, Microsoft, et al., don't want. There's an opportunity there, for sure. There's surely never been a better time to offer a humane, decent alternative to "WTE™". But Linux vendors keep saying that, and it never seems to happen. It's been the "year of desktop Linux" since about 1995.
The crazy thing is that my many of my corporate clients still use Windows to develop for, and administer, their Linux server farms. If a person who is a skilled Linux developer -- and they all are -- still prefers to use Windows on the desktop, how awful must desktop Linux be?
I have forgotten what I wanted to say when I began this pointless diatribe. Oh, yes -- Windows 7. When Linux gets too awful, Microsoft too intrusive, and Google too, well, Google, there's always Windows 7. So long as you never connect it to the Internet, which would be like hanging out a 'hack me' banner.
Isn't progress wonderful?
BR, Lars. |
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szatox Advocate
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Anon-E-moose wrote: | I started with /usr/share/pipewire/filter-chain/sink-eq6.conf and modified it according to my ears *lol* |
I see. Good too know this option is available, though it doesn't look like it's worth changing from easyeffects which I'm already using for compressor (basically a turbocharged automatic gain control)
Looking at the files there I found out someone on the team has a sense of humor: /usr/share/pipewire/filter-chain/demonic.conf lowering pitch and adding reverb. Could be a fun thing to run your mic through during a teleconference
This aged really well in an absolutely hilarious way Seriously, who uses that?
pjp wrote: | For all that Windows is doing to drive users away, Linux' response seems to be "We don't want you either." The only reason I'm using Linux on my laptop / daily use system is due to Windows Telemetry Edition™. |
Man, I recently had a look at my computer illiterate friend's ubuntu. Turns out gnome apps being ugly on my machine is not the fault of bad integration with lxde. They are just ugly.
And seem to be actively going out of their way to make the display as unreadable as possible.
It might be time to look for some alternatives again. _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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pjp Administrator
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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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@lars_the_bear,
I used Ubuntu once via USB flash drive so I can't comment on Canonical's support. RH (pre-IBM) wanted your money, but did not want to provide support. Has Google ever provided support for a product they've kept? I've never heard a good thing about support from either MS or IBM. As for the use of Windows, my experience is that there is no business justification ($) to change. And I doubt there are any "meaningful" reasons for a manager mist(er|ress) to want that flag in their cap which would likely end up looking less like a flag and more like having been fired. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:50 am Post subject: |
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@pjp
Broadly, I agree. But I fear I have already dragged the discussion further off topic than anybody would thank me for.
BR, Lars. |
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Spanik l33t
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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:46 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | rab0171610 wrote: |
I don't have an issue with progress, new projects, and change[...] |
I do
The problem with 'change' is that it's often driven by forces other than a desire to make improvements. I take a Darwinian view of this: we should resist change, of any kind, so that only the changes that bring genuine, demonstrable benefits get adopted.
I have nothing in principle against Pulse, PipeWire, systemd, Wayland, et al., but they don't make my life any better -- not on balance. So, at present, I don't use them. Maybe one day there will be an innovation in the Linux world that I think is worth adopting.
What really worries me (and I appreciate that this is off-topic) is that most of the big changes I've seen in Linux in the last ten years have been to reduce the barrier to entry. It's all about zero-configuration and point-and-click. There still seems to be, among organizations like Canonical and Red Hat, a feeling that they can attract Windows user to Linux.
But experience has shown that this hasn't happened, and most likely it won't happen. I mean, look at Windows 11 -- if people will still use that crock of s**t, what will it take to convince them to change? Changes that are being made to Linux, on the basis that it will become more appealing to Windows users, are unlikely to benefit me.
So, in general, I am against change, because changes are being made for all the wrong (for me) reasons.
BR, Lars. |
pjp wrote: | lars_the_bear wrote: | What really worries me (and I appreciate that this is off-topic) is that most of the big changes I've seen in Linux in the last ten years have been to reduce the barrier to entry. It's all about zero-configuration and point-and-click. There still seems to be, among organizations like Canonical and Red Hat, a feeling that they can attract Windows user to Linux. | There is a point at which doing it the old, manual, tedious way is worth changing. Is it to attract Windows users, or is it do reduce manual, tedious configuration?
lars_the_bear wrote: | But experience has shown that this hasn't happened, and most likely it won't happen. I mean, look at Windows 11 -- if people will still use that crock of s**t, what will it take to convince them to change? Changes that are being made to Linux, on the basis that it will become more appealing to Windows users, are unlikely to benefit me. | For all that Windows is doing to drive users away, Linux' response seems to be "We don't want you either." The only reason I'm using Linux on my laptop / daily use system is due to Windows Telemetry Edition™. And over the last year or few I've been considering throwing in the towel and switching back to WTE™.
lars_the_bear wrote: | So, in general, I am against change, because changes are being made for all the wrong (for me) reasons. | My dislike for some of the changes you mention is that they're half-baked messes or Good Ideas poorly thought out and implemented, if they were thought out at all. Throwing some code over the fence that compiles and saying Solution Sooo Good isn't producing good results. |
+1, I can follow this completely.
What bothers me is that these "solutions" become hard dependencies even when you have no need for them.
I have been using Alsa + Jack since Jack came out. Can't remember that I even had to configure anything other than setting my sample rate, buffer depth and routing. Oh yes, my sound card in the kernel setup. Only thing that bothers me is that setting it up running RT for a normal user is a pain. But as I don't do much audio where that matters anymore having a bit more latency isn't a drama. _________________ Expert in non-working solutions |
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dmpogo Advocate
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 3302 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | rab0171610 wrote: |
I don't have an issue with progress, new projects, and change[...] |
I do
The problem with 'change' is that it's often driven by forces other than a desire to make improvements. I take a Darwinian view of this: we should resist change, of any kind, so that only the changes that bring genuine, demonstrable benefits get adopted.
I have nothing in principle against Pulse, PipeWire, systemd, Wayland, et al., but they don't make my life any better -- not on balance. So, at present, I don't use them. Maybe one day there will be an innovation in the Linux world that I think is worth adopting.
What really worries me (and I appreciate that this is off-topic) is that most of the big changes I've seen in Linux in the last ten years have been to reduce the barrier to entry. It's all about zero-configuration and point-and-click. There still seems to be, among organizations like Canonical and Red Hat, a feeling that they can attract Windows user to Linux.
But experience has shown that this hasn't happened, and most likely it won't happen. I mean, look at Windows 11 -- if people will still use that crock of s**t, what will it take to convince them to change? Changes that are being made to Linux, on the basis that it will become more appealing to Windows users, are unlikely to benefit me.
So, in general, I am against change, because changes are being made for all the wrong (for me) reasons.
BR, Lars. |
At the end of the day we are talking about the platform, laptop/desktop, which has been stagnant with little if not no new ideas for user experience perspective for last 20 years. If you see how my laptop functions now and how it is being used versus 2004, it is basically the same, with some cosmetic changes. We are basically in maintenance mode on this platform - just adapting to newer hardware, which has to be done, and attempting to iterate on previous implementations of the same things. No wonder there is no much striking life-changing benefit
I also,always thought that the thrust to have Linux conquer desktop market was misplaced. It made sense to declare from the point of view of the first commercial companies, such as RedHat, because that was their initial business model, but not from the point of view of Linux focus overall. Basically because it was not in the hands of Linux developers - what could bring Windows users to Linux desktop, is not a quality of a desktop (or kernel), but presence of applications they need to use. Which were proprietary and guarded. In that sense Star/Open/Libreoffice did more to bring Windows users than Gnome or KDE. It is still the case today.
(And at the end of the day Unix-like system did conquer a slice of desktop market - in the form of OSX.) |
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Ralphred Guru
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Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 12:55 am Post subject: |
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"Do one job, and do it well"
We are all familiar with this phrase, and what happens when as a paradigm, it is ignored.
This is the history of "Audio on linux" - ignoring the paradigm. Just think about it for a second and look at the 3 most popular offerings in the "linux audio stack"
First, there is ALSA: As a driver you have to make some pretty "poor choices" as a Linux user to not have ALSA support at a hardware level, but it sucks as a mixer/router, and the API, at least the way it's implemented by some application devs, is "less than optimal".
Then there is Pulseaudio: At a hardware level has atrocious support as it tried to use a "config wizzerd", and makes the assumption that it's "documents"(lol) will help with corner cases sidestepped by said "wizzerds". It's pretty good at mixing, almost "totally shit" at routing, but has a great API for programmers - as in, if pulse or you get your hardware and routing to work, everything else "just werks" after that.
Finally we have Jack: Requires you to sort out your own ALSA*, so hardware support is "on you". Master of routing and mixing (even in a non-RT environment), but not as ubiquitous as Pulse as far as application support goes.
My overall opinion on this whole thing is there needs to be 3 parts to your "sound stack" :- Client API (simple for application devs to use).
- Routing and mixing "server" (Simple for end users to use/manipulate).
- Hardware "connection" (simple** for distro-devs, power-users, and sys-admins to set-up (once!)
"But Ralph,", you say: "you've ignored pipewire!". Indeed I have, because it ignores the paradigm, and until such time I'm forced to replace one of the above components with it, I will continue to do so...
In conclusion, sound on Linux is simple: Constrain pulseaudio so it doesn't try and fsck with your ALSA hardware config - your apps will all "work", and so will your sound hardware. If you need "advanced routing" slap Jack in between pulse and ALSA. If you are losing CPU cycles to "redundant processing of no-audible sound" RTM again 'cus you did it wrong.
IMHO, this is very much the "Gentoo way", read: You put in all the "real effort" at inception, then the rest is smooth sailing.
*There are Jack management apps that attempt to "auto-configure" ALSA for you, but rather like Pulseaudio they fail on corner cases (small mercy that Jack's documentation has yet to be been found wanting as much as PA's is though).
**"simple" in the case can just mean "well, and accurately, documented". |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Ralphred wrote: |
My overall opinion on this whole thing is there needs to be 3 parts to your "sound stack" : [...] |
Maybe so; but I think these parts -- if you have them -- should be independent. If you want to interact directly with the audio hardware, you should be able to do so. I'm not sure about JACK, but currently Pulse/PW make this difficult.
I don't have the slightest objection to Pulse/PW/JACK et al., for people who need them. What bugs me is being forced to install and use them because of poor application compatibility with anything else.
If your application works with ALSA, it will work with Pulse/PW/JACK with no extra work (unless you need sub-millisecond latencies). The converse is not really true, although I accept that we do have `apulse` etc., these days.
This problem is just one example of the general problem that affects the entire Linux world: in theory, if we all just adopted one way of doing something -- even if we didn't think that way was optimal -- and got fully behind it, we would make better progress, than if we have a bunch of folks working separately on different methods.
For better or worse, only the large commercial operators are able to enforce that kind of conformity on their developers, and they don't always have users' best interests at the front of their minds.
BR, Lars. |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:32 am Post subject: |
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dmpogo wrote: | If you see how my laptop functions now and how it is being used versus 2004, it is basically the same, with some cosmetic changes. |
But I liked how my laptop worked in 2004 What's more, running 2004 software on 2024 hardware really flies.
I don't think it's just the absence of applications that prevents people moving from Windows to Linux, however bad Windows gets: it's just inertia. People (including me) just like to stick with what they know, and what they're productive with. "Better the Devil you know..." and all that.
BR, Lars. |
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pjp Administrator
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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dmpogo wrote: | At the end of the day we are talking about the platform, laptop/desktop, which has been stagnant with little if not no new ideas for user experience perspective for last 20 years. If you see how my laptop functions now and how it is being used versus 2004, it is basically the same, with some cosmetic changes. We are basically in maintenance mode on this platform - just adapting to newer hardware, which has to be done, and attempting to iterate on previous implementations of the same things. No wonder there is no much striking life-changing benefit | This is true of computers since the 80s, not just the last 20 years.
What Andy giveth, Bill taketh.
MS Office needed no new versions since v97, and the OS really hasn't needed a new version since either XP or 7, depending on who you ask. Personally I'd still take the DOS version of WordPerfect over any version of Word, and Lotus 1-2-3 over Excel. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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dmpogo Advocate
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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pjp wrote: | dmpogo wrote: | At the end of the day we are talking about the platform, laptop/desktop, which has been stagnant with little if not no new ideas for user experience perspective for last 20 years. If you see how my laptop functions now and how it is being used versus 2004, it is basically the same, with some cosmetic changes. We are basically in maintenance mode on this platform - just adapting to newer hardware, which has to be done, and attempting to iterate on previous implementations of the same things. No wonder there is no much striking life-changing benefit | This is true of computers since the 80s, not just the last 20 years.
What Andy giveth, Bill taketh.
MS Office needed no new versions since v97, and the OS really hasn't needed a new version since either XP or 7, depending on who you ask. Personally I'd still take the DOS version of WordPerfect over any version of Word, and Lotus 1-2-3 over Excel. |
well, XP would put you right at 20 years ago, isn't it and 97 at 25 ? That is what I meant
I am Unix person, never worked with Windows (though my family had it), so I would say my computing work flow was mostly settled by 1995, but then there was adaptation of Unix to PC platform in form of Linux which was basically completed by 2001. My first Linux laptop, bought in 2001 (and still functioning worked for me rather much like now, though I run Gnome at the time.
Great technologies of the 80-s, which were setting the future after 70-s were networking, email (meaning non-local network communication in general), windowing display (X windows for Unix) - there is nothing of that level of importance since 2000 (and I give 90-s to adaption of Unix to PC platforms in the form of Linux as important development) from laptop/desktop platform |
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Spanik l33t
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Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 985 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: |
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pjp wrote: | MS Office needed no new versions since v97, and the OS really hasn't needed a new version since either XP or 7, depending on who you ask. Personally I'd still take the DOS version of WordPerfect over any version of Word, and Lotus 1-2-3 over Excel. |
I never used Lotus 1-2-3 but I'm on the same line regarding Word, I think even EDLIN was better. _________________ Expert in non-working solutions |
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CaptainBlood Advocate
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010 Posts: 3749
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:34 am Post subject: |
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Spanik wrote: | I think even EDLIN was better. | Yeah I was so easy to choose when there was so little choice back then.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support. _________________ USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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Zucca Moderator
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3583 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just getting more familiar with this guide.
Looks like the author has put real effort into it. _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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