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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6779
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 Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| kick6 wrote: | | I wanted to remove xdm, and remove all packagesat only xdm had listed as dependencies. |
To perhaps clarify your misunderstanding: Here you write clearly that you want two tasks ("and"). You gave the command appropriate for the safe execution of the first task. There is no command for the second task, but there is a command to remove all orphaned dependencies (which is probably what you want, anyway), namely emerge --depclean without atoms.
For some reason, you want portage to read your mind instead of your commands and expect that the first command does something in addition: How should portage know that you want for the first task something in addition (especially, how should portage distinguish this case from the one where you do not want the additional action)? |
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hasufell
Retired Dev
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drhouse123
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Joined: 13 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadowCat8 wrote: | | Since I have been on Gentoo, I have tried a number of other distros (to include Sabayon, Linux Mint, CentOS just to name a couple), and find myself *always* returning to Gentoo. |
I fully agreed. |
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Roman_Gruber
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Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 3846
Location: Austro Bavaria
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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windows annoying like hell
suse / linux mint / arch fail on updating the box or make the box unbootable.
a binary distro is a pain in the ass to update, it is time consuming while a gentoo box updated every 3 weeks is less a bother. just let it do it and than come back and smile.
Gentoo is less buggy as it was in the past.
Even updating libaries won t break anything as teh libaries are kept now and the packages are rebuild now with emerge @preserved-rebuild. A really great feature, before that it was a bit oh I screwed something up.
I am down to a small lean environment => i3wm => i3 or i3wm in portage.
no other distro has less cruft. Mint is a pain and others too. laggy and update hell for any linux mint disc i used in past two years.
Gentoo may have sucked in the past a bit but now I doubt.
Only thing I wish the systemd thing would been kicked out of the portage tree, so the forum would have less systemd related support requests. You can not fix crap and systemd in portage is maybe a reason gentoo may suck now (just kidding) |
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Perfect Gentleman
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Joined: 18 May 2014
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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i got 4 desktops and 1 laptop, on all these comps Arch works fine. and I've never had problems with it.
But now my desktop is on Gentoo. And I see all cons and pros of Gentoo.
The main downside of Gentoo is its maintainers: resolving bugs, version bumping is sooo loooong to wait.
Arch is the best binary distro, and I'm not sure that Gentoo is the best of sourced based. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6144
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Perfect Gentleman wrote: | The main downside of Gentoo is its maintainers: resolving bugs, version bumping is sooo loooong to wait.
Arch is the best binary distro, and I'm not sure that Gentoo is the best of sourced based. |
That's kind of ironic since arch is based on gentoo 
Edit to add: it started out that way, I assume it still is.
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| That thread was sleeping from june (that was a good record), rat doctorhouse!!! |
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Perfect Gentleman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
That's kind of ironic since arch is based on gentoo
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Arch is based on Gentoo, I've never heard of this, but I've heard that it was based on Crux. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6059
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Perfect Gentleman wrote: | The main downside of Gentoo is its maintainers: resolving bugs, version bumping is sooo loooong to wait.
Arch is the best binary distro, and I'm not sure that Gentoo is the best of sourced based. |
That's kind of ironic since arch is based on gentoo
Edit to add: it started out that way, I assume it still is. |
its not based upon Gentoo..
It took inspiration from Gentoo for the "bleeding edge" mantra
For their ABS system it followed Ports
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krinn
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| They share rolling release design as well. Even binary vs source, they are more close than one could think at first look (that's why i suppose we see many arch users and arch see many gentoo users coming in and out in their forum). |
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Naib
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Oh I know ( I do like arch for my binary rollouts) but considering the extent of the misconception (ie arch based upon gentoo....) it was simpler to dismiss the bigger differences.
Exherbo is based upon Gentoo
Arch is influenced by Gentoo
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I've never used arch, but I had heard that in the past, or maybe my memory is playing tricks.
Anyway if one is happy with arch, then go there.
If one finds gentoo too hard, then they need to look elsewhere, go back to arch or RH or whatever.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | Exherbo is based upon Gentoo
Arch is influenced by Gentoo |
No; sysresccd is based on Gentoo.
Exherbo is a wannabe-fork that never made it, when the predicted herds of developers didn't all follow McCreesh and the
few vocal asshats he managed to con onto his team, as well as the poor muppets who found it impossible to escape
the brainwashing.
Originally it was all about how everyone would be using paludis soon, as it was so much faster (supposedly: like systemd the
tune changed when they didn't fulfil the pledge.) Then it was all about how exheres was so much better than ebuilds, and
paludis was the only "correct" package manager; never mind that it couldn't build a gentoo install, that was somebody
else's bug, always somebody else's problem; or blame the user, and if that doesn't work, blame the hardware, and
pontificate for hours on end about anything other than getting the job done.
Hmm spookily similar to Poeterring.
Something tells me GnomeOS will be about as relevant to Linux in a few years, as Exherbo is to Gentoo now. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | I've never used arch, but I had heard that in the past, or maybe my memory is playing tricks.
Anyway if one is happy with arch, then go there.
If one finds gentoo too hard, then they need to look elsewhere, go back to arch or RH or whatever. |
funny thing is aspects of arch is/was harder than gentoo.
Before they went systemd they had one very large /etc/rc file to manage all their services & other aspects of the OS tuning (locale etc...) ... really annoying to use.
Arch going systemd made sense for them as their initial stab was dumb.
What makes Arch harder than gentoo is the fact it is a rolling release (like Gentoo) BUT an odd concept of versions...
Let me clarify... EACH package has a version: foo-1.0.0 so when an update occurs you get foo-1.0.1 and you know that, you know the version of foo you have. HOWEVER... you cannot choose what version of foo you want AND even worse you cannot revert to foo-1.0.0 *IF* foo-1.0.1 has some nasty issues...
Then there's their versions with their kernel release: 3.10.0.ARCH being bumped to 3.10.0.ARCH (oh how they mis-interpreted the user field in the kernel config  ) which then causes no end of problems with regards to inserting modules because 3.10.0.ARCH is not compatible with 3.10.0.ARCH.
Oh and then there is package names...
you want gvim? sure pacman gvim ... you get vim with teh GUI
you want to install vim... well you need to install the entire Xorg stack because they compile vim with the X flag (fine... downside of binary is you are slave to someone elses settings).
But wait, what if you want command-line only... they have a package call "vi"
but vi != vim... except they called it that to indicate cmd-line only vim
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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steveL,
... but GnomeOS is bankrolled by Red Hat. I'm not so sure it will die out unless it takes Red Hat down with it.
Its rather like forecasting the demise of ChromeOS, Android or Windows, all of which have solid commercial backing.
Exherbo on the other hand ...
The real differences are in the advertising budget. With good advertising you can easily sell technically inferior stuff.
Think VHS vs Betamax
GnomeOS does not need to be good, it just needs the advertising to gain market share.
Red Hat don't care whose market share it takes, after all, they are only doing it due to their fidicary duty to shareholders.
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | GnomeOS is bankrolled by Red Hat. I'm not so sure it will die out unless it takes Red Hat down with it.
Its rather like forecasting the demise of ChromeOS, Android or Windows, all of which have solid commercial backing. |
Hmm not really; I'm not forecasting the demise of RH. After all they are in fact part of a massive energy conglomerate no-one had ever heard of before they bought RH, another one of those shadowy organisations creaming so much money off the backs of ordinary people, moving it around the globe to avoid taxes that only the "little people" pay.
Companies often come out with "great" ideas, only for them to be quietly shelved a few years later, and surprise surprise, there's another "new innovation" to sell you the same thing you had before. Microserf has a history of it, for example, and I think it's pretty clear that RH are doing a Microserf.
| Quote: | The real differences are in the advertising budget. With good advertising you can easily sell technically inferior stuff.
Think VHS vs Betamax
GnomeOS does not need to be good, it just needs the advertising to gain market share.
Red Hat don't care whose market share it takes, after all, they are only doing it due to their fidicary duty to shareholders. |
Sure, though mostly this is about locking down the Linux market, so that there are "no alternatives" to using RH. It's monopoly or cartel play, and all about business and money, not about software nor users, who like I said are the product, not the customers.
Their employer, or much more often someone exploiting them some other way via "Web-2.0", is the customer.
As such it makes zero sense for me to presume they are acting in my interests. There isn't even the traditional purchaser-supplier relationship going on any more. Hardware suppliers supposedly, but they are already bribed by software vendors, and apparently that's fine.
My real objection to it all is the constant dumbing-down, much like we've seen in British broadcasting over the last 35 years or so.
Yes there's 150 channels, but they're all full of crap. None of it is designed to educate or inform, merely to fill your head full of cognitive dissonance so you'll buy some more crap in the vainglorious hope that it'll make your life better, when all it does is give you a temporary feeling of relief; a moment that is fleeting and about as substantial as the crap they're feeding down the tubes.
Funny ISTR "The Economist" banging on about how corruption is inefficient. They should stop lecturing the RoTW and take a look at their own "nations". From what I've seen and read, that's where the corruption comes from.
Supposedly that's a "radical" site, but it reads really tame to me, and no-one has ever questioned the veracity of the facts presented. Merely sought to do that usual sneering tone so beloved of those who think they're "in the know". After the event everyone talks about the "real-politik" of why they were such inhumane specimens, as if that were obvious. Yet they still present the same set of bulshytt pretexts for the next genocidal episode, and pretend to be sending drones in only to help the nations concerned, by killing their children. |
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risingfire1
n00b
Joined: 03 Aug 2024
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:59 pm Post subject: A decade later |
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10 years later (or well, nearly) from the last post and gentoo is still alive, crazy how that is  |
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kimchi_sg
Advocate
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 2:40 am Post subject: Re: why Gentoo sucks, and why it will ultimately die |
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| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | Two words: maintenance and bloat. When I started using Gentoo a number of years ago, it was a small, lightweight distribution with a reputation for speed. Despite the fact that most software had to be compiled, you could build a very lean system simply by installing a handful of packages and tweaking the USE flags to leave other stuff out... My standard system consists of X, KDE, Mplayer, and a few other packages like ssh and gcc which every system should have. |
18 years later, you can still do that. No one is forcing you to use KDE or Gnome, or Hyprland or Wayfire. I use twm+vlc FWIW.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | ... There are now so many possible configurations, depending on whether you last updated a day, a week, or a month ago, that it is pointless to try to test anything. The software is simply thrown onto the users, and whatever is broken is sorted out in the forums. |
Now we have automated tinderboxes building everything and sorting out things in Bugzilla, which is a much improved situation.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | Add to that the developer's tendency to introduce deep structural changes to the system on a continuous basis. I don't mind that Gentoo in 2006 uses udev instead of devfs, and Xorg instead of the standard X11. Certainly we all have to make these changes. What I dislike is the fact that these types of changes are made every two or three months, and often before the new software is ready....
The bottom line is that I go out of town for one month, and when I return I spend one or two full days updating and repairing my system. It's not just compile time - I may as well reinstall. In fact, if you don't update you will be forced to reinstall because your configuration will quickly become unsupported, or updating it will break it beyond all repair. |
We don't have these epoch-changing events often nowadays... only python major version updates annually perhaps.
One month of missed emerge --syncs will probably not break a system nowadays, it has slowed to maybe six months, but such is the nature of continually-updated distribution like Gentoo.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | There are so many packages now that it becomes impossible to strip out bloat. When one piece of software requires 100 packages, someone in that list will always want to install Gnome or Ruby or GTK+ or some other unnecessary dependency. Bloat is also added whenever the underlying system is changed, because new dependencies are added and old ones are not removed. I know there are tools for detecting this, but I also know that they don't often work. I'm pretty sure that if I reinstalled Gentoo right now I could build a lean and modular system, but a year later it would be spaghetti again. |
Whatever bloat can be removed is subject largely to what customisations upstream allows.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | ...I miss the simplicity and speed of the old Gentoo. The distribution is now 10 times more complex, but it doesn't seem to deliver any benefits to its users. |
It is still the easiest to customise, try disabling Wayland on Fedora or Debian for example, it is a PITA compared to Gentoo. |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2076
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: Re: A decade later |
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| risingfire1 wrote: | | 10 years later (or well, nearly) from the last post and gentoo is still alive, crazy how that is |
The fact that this is your first post. How did you even come across it? |
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Penguixrc
n00b
Joined: 28 Jul 2024
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: why Gentoo sucks, and why it will ultimately die |
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| Zork the Almighty wrote: | Two words: maintenance and bloat. When I started using Gentoo a number of years ago, it was a small, lightweight distribution with a reputation for speed. Despite the fact that most software had to be compiled, you could build a very lean system simply by installing a handful of packages and tweaking the USE flags to leave other stuff out. It took 5 seconds to update the portage cache. Packages were frequently updated, but for the most part you could just install the new version overtop of the old one. My standard system consists of X, KDE, Mplayer, and a few other packages like ssh and gcc which every system should have.
Fast-forward to today, where the current fad seems to be "modular packages". Instead of 10 packages for KDE we have 200, and instead of 1 package for X we have 100, and something is updated every day. There are now so many possible configurations, depending on whether you last updated a day, a week, or a month ago, that it is pointless to try to test anything. The software is simply thrown onto the users, and whatever is broken is sorted out in the forums. |
But this is less bloat than having a big package.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | The bottom line is that I go out of town for one month, and when I return I spend one or two full days updating and repairing my system. It's not just compile time - I may as well reinstall. In fact, if you don't update you will be forced to reinstall because your configuration will quickly become unsupported, or updating it will break it beyond all repair.. |
One month without an upgrade is crazy  ; this would take a while with other rolling-release distros too.
| Zork the Almighty wrote: | | The bottom line is that Gentoo reflects the state of Linux as a whole. It's like a house where every part, from the foundation to the roof, is constantly being worked on or replaced. This is good for house design, but it's not a place where anybody can live. Most distributions cherry pick the best versions of software for a "release", and then actually test the software (in a "beta" version) to see if it works. This way the users get the benefits of a fairly modern house, with only periodic interuptions instead of continuous construction. I don't think anything in Gentoo ever even gets to beta level anymore. The distribution as a whole certainly doesn't. The only people who can seem to maintain the system are its developers, and trying to "use" Gentoo is the craziest thing I have ever seen a large group of people do.. |
Gentoo is pretty easy to maintain. I tested Windows a couple of months ago, and it was a nightmare. Isn’t it easier to use those other distros you mentioned  |
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Penguixrc
n00b
Joined: 28 Jul 2024
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: A decade later |
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| risingfire1 wrote: | | 10 years later (or well, nearly) from the last post and gentoo is still alive, crazy how that is |
I think he was not right lol. |
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BurningMemory
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Joined: 17 Jan 2023
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: A decade later |
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| Penguixrc wrote: | | risingfire1 wrote: | | 10 years later (or well, nearly) from the last post and gentoo is still alive, crazy how that is |
I think he was not right lol. |
yeah. gentoo can die as any other thing, but the "technolust" is too strong for people to let it to. |
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FilthyPitDog
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Jan 2021
Posts: 194
Location: South Pacific
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2024 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Zork... quit being a dork! |
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| cosmic665 wrote: | Zork;
Grow up! If you don't like gentoo and you think it's too unstable, then shutup and go run debian. I'm sure fedora has fewer packages then gentoo as well.  |
haha totally
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Spanik
l33t
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 985
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I started reading the first post and had to agree on quite a lot of points. In fact it took me some time before I noticed it was a post from very long ago.
But yes, I'm going on a 2 vacation and I know that when I come back I'll have to spend days to get the desktop running again. I don't even try to get the laptop up to date anymore.
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2024 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, the king summoned his wise men and stet them the task of returning with some words the woul be true true for all time.
After several months, or maybe years, they came back with "and this too shall pass away."
On a more cheery note. The demise of Gentoo has been discussed here since I joined the forum and probably before.
For those with long memories and the teminally curious, look up Historical Gentoo on the wiki.
it's a recreation of my first install. All the sources are there too, so you can do real live April 2003 Gentoo install. That will show how much Gentoo has improved.
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