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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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szatox wrote: |
The biggest issue with laptops is their absolutely shitty cooling. They come with strong CPUs, which are easy to advertise, but as soon as you try actually using them, they get throttled to 20-30% of their theoretical performance.
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Yeah. I've moaned about that problem before. This laptop has an H-class i7, and Lenovo says it's rated to run constantly at 90C. But I usually have to throttle it down myself, because I'm worried it's a fire risk. So it's probably running, as you say, at about 20% of capacity, I'm sure that doesn't do anything for the compilation times.
Quote: | Is this 8GB of RAM _actually_ used, or does this figure include caches and buffers? |
Fair point. If I add the 'res' memory figures from 'top', just after boot, the total comes to 2Gb. On the Xfce4 'spin' of Fedora the same figure is about 800Mb. That's not surprising, because gnome-shell alone uses 650Mb (of real RAM). The problem is that these figures tend to inflate over time, as various background things that I don't want or need start to flex their muscles. So it's not unusual to find things like tracker and packagekit using >500Mb (of real RAM) each. Not all the time, but often enough when you really need every byte. Fedora doesn't make it easy to disable stuff like this, but it's possible -- until the next update.
Doing the same test with Gentoo (using Xfce4) gives a figure of about 400Mb, and that doesn't seem to inflate with use because, I guess, there's nothing going on that I don't know about.
To be fair, the Xfce4 variant of Fedora isn't bad, as resource usage goes. Nowhere near as good as I can get with Gentoo, though.
BR, Lars. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_beas,
How far off piste do you want t go?
if you don't mind rounning your own overlay, you can add things that you never want, ever, to package.mask.
Now when you hit a hard dependency on a masked package, portage will shout at you.
You deal with it by copying the ebuild to your overlay and editing the ebuild there.
Results vary.
I run a static /dev system this way. udev and friends are not permitted. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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pingtoo Veteran
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021 Posts: 1125 Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear,
Just an idea,
Gentoo have a way to build entire rootfs from scratch. it is know as catalyst. I wonder if you would consider it. using catalyst you can create Gentoo to exact to you like.
I am currently building my stage4 with lto for selected packages. If you wish I be happy to share with my experience.
The reason I think you can consider catalyst is because I think you can accept one time effort to spend upfront to make up the setup. You just don't want to constantly chasing changes.
Another notes. I been working on my stage4 for 4-5 days now. It is a lot of time for adjust configuration and recompile. but I let the compilation over night so it does not bother me too much. |
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logrusx Advocate
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo is the last stop. Maybe there's only Linux From Scratch left, but from your other threads I think it's absolutely not what you're looking for.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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C5ace Guru
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Joined: 23 Dec 2013 Posts: 483 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | C5ace wrote: |
Try Calculate Linux. This is 100% compiled Gentoo with a slightly different layout of the / file system structure. You can optionally use emerge to recompile with different USE flags. I installed today Calculate Linux XFCE with Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice on a VirtualBox VM with 2GB RAM single CPU. |
Thanks. I did try it, briefly. The problem is that I couldn't make the installer use my pre-existing filesystem layout. I have 6Gb of my data on this laptop and, while it's backed up, it's an awful lot of data to restore, if I accidentally create a new filesystem on top of it. I suspect if I knew more about Calculate, I might be able to figure out how to install it in a safe way. It's on my to-do list.
BR, Lars. |
What is the disk size, partition layout and file system? _________________ Observation after 30 years working with computers:
All software has known and unknown bugs and vulnerabilities. Especially software written in complex, unstable and object oriented languages such as perl, python, C++, C#, Rust and the likes. |
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pietinger Moderator
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear,
you wrote:
lars_the_bear wrote: | In a few months I will be retiring, after 40+ years in the IT industry. |
I think you have enough Linux knowledge to see for yourself all the pros and cons of different Linux distributions - I also worked in a data center before I retired ... and can confirm the following:
1. You have to die a death. You can't have everything: Flexibility, performance, fast installation and no bloated system:
* 1a. Pre-compiled packages nowadays have to fulfill something: “user-friendliness” == everything works ... whether you need it or not ... this leads to: bloated packages.
* 1b. Compiling packages yourself costs CPU time ... but please read my recommendation later (*)
I have also had various Linux distributions ... no other can fulfill my wishes better than Gentoo ... @logrusx has spoken a great truth calmly: Gentoo is the last stop.
2. 16 GB RAM is really sufficient even for extensive DE like KDE/plasma or Gnome.
3. Although I don't use FreeCad, I have often read that it runs best in a completely unstable Gentoo (~amd64) ... even if I don't recommend it.
*) I've been using Gentoo for 20 years now and didn't always have such fast computers as today ... but I've always (even today) run all compile jobs at night ... I don't wait for them because I'm asleep anyway ... AND ... I can also protect my computer: I don't have to run everything at maximum speed. If you set MAKEOPTS to =“-j2” in /etc/portage/make.conf, then only 2 threads (==uses 2 cores of the CPU) are created ... this even protects your fan because the CPU hardly heats up. _________________ https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger |
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John R. Graham Administrator
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Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I like it! I've found just one more thing to say about those asterisked insights: when the load that Portage is allowed to put on the system is limited with a small --jobs (-j) value, the system remains usable while the update is under way. So, do I care about compile times? Well, yeah...but not that much.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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dmpogo Advocate
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Why on earth one would compile and even use qtwebengine ? |
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flexibeast Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, qtwebengine and webkit-gtk are in my package.mask, because (fortunately) there's no software i need to use which has either of them as a hard dependency.
And, yeah, even on my recently-retired laptop, which had a Ryzen 5 3500U and only had 10G of usable memory for compilation (due to 2G being allocated to a Portage TMPDIR, which experimentation suggested was the optimum balance for my use-case), i set up Portage so that compilation was generally something that could just tick away in the background without noticeably affecting my activities on that box. On some occasions i might change this - for example, for a bug fix in software i need right now, but that was certainly the exception rather than the rule. |
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eschwartz Developer
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:00 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | But currently this laptop is running Gentoo, and it's flying. But it's just starting its second day of compiling after an update. Right now it's stuck on qtwebengine, because I have USE=-pulseaudio. I haven't installed Pulse because it just uses resources and does nothing I need. Maybe I could override the USE selection and install the binary. But who knows whether it will work? Well, maybe somebody knows, but I don't. I've had variable success with this kind of thing.
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I feel like probably most other distros would simply force you to use pulseaudio whether you wanted to or not. qtwebengine either forcibly links to it or doesn't, so you cannot make it optional at runtime... distros have to either cater to the people who want pulse support or those who don't, and distros that can cater to both are basically... gentoo?
That being said, I actually do think this is a bit of a sweet spot in terms of building a limited number of combos for the official binhost: in particular, disabling pulse and disabling bluetooth would likely satisfy a very large percentage of the people who currently have USE flags that diverge from the binhost. It's something I would like to see happen in the near future but I need time to propose it... |
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rab0171610 Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:28 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear -- I wanted to mention that I also avoid and do not use qtwebengine or webkit-gtk on either gentoo machine. I don't need any software that requires either.
If you have a faster machine on the local network that you can use as a distcc server it has been very helpful to me on the low-end Lenovo. The 4 gb of ram is not a problem as I am not using PORTAGE_TMPDIR on that machine locally in make.conf and the default local MAKEOPTS (number of jobs) are set to match the local number of CPU cores, which is 2.
The laptop does freeze occasionally and we have to do a hard reset to reboot so it is not perfect but it works and is responsive. The external USB connected NVME is attached to the back of the laptop screen with velcro. It is easy to remove and plug into a faster computer and run updates there. That machine would not even need to run gentoo, it could run any distro.
You may not always have the hardware you have now. Your next machine may be something more powerful so the limitations you are experiencing are not for eternity. Good deals crop up now and then. |
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logrusx Advocate
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: |
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eschwartz wrote: |
That being said, I actually do think this is a bit of a sweet spot in terms of building a limited number of combos for the official binhost |
I would add that with the introduction of the binhost, development towards more customization and flexibility is to be expected.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 7:40 am Post subject: |
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C5ace wrote: | lars_the_bear wrote: | C5ace wrote: |
Try Calculate Linux. This is 100% compiled Gentoo with a slightly different layout of the / file system structure. You can optionally use emerge to recompile with different USE flags. I installed today Calculate Linux XFCE with Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice on a VirtualBox VM with 2GB RAM single CPU. |
Thanks. I did try it, briefly. The problem is that I couldn't make the installer use my pre-existing filesystem layout. I have 6Gb of my data on this laptop and, while it's backed up, it's an awful lot of data to restore, if I accidentally create a new filesystem on top of it. I suspect if I knew more about Calculate, I might be able to figure out how to install it in a safe way. It's on my to-do list.
BR, Lars. |
What is the disk size, partition layout and file system? |
Thanks. The problem is that I would have to install onto a disk that is already formatted, in a particular way. There are partitions for encrypted user data, and unencrypted user data. There are also partitions for EFI and boot, and all the usual stuff.
I couldn't find a way to run the Calculate installer in such a way to be sure it wouldn't overwrite my layout. The documentation does say how to reassign the system and home partitions, but it doesn't say whether it can find an existing EFI partition. To be sure, I guess I'd have to set up a working Linux in a VM with a particular layout, and then see if I could run the Calculate installer without breaking it. The documentation isn't very clear on this.
But, to be honest, I was put off from the start, because the documentation says that Calculate doesn't like to use a separate /home partition. I always do that, so I can use the same /home with multiple different Linux versions. I could probably work around this but, again, I'd have to try it in a VM, to be sure it works.
None of this was a problem in Gentoo, because I had to create my own /etc/fstab as part of the install. It's also not a problem for Fedora, because its installer seems smart enough to adapt to an existing disk layout, with a bit of help. Calculate might be fine, also -- I just haven't yet had time to try.
BR, Lars. |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 8:06 am Post subject: |
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eschwartz wrote: |
That being said, I actually do think this is a bit of a sweet spot in terms of building a limited number of combos for the official binhost: in particular, disabling pulse and disabling bluetooth would likely satisfy a very large percentage of the people who currently have USE flags that diverge from the binhost. It's something I would like to see happen in the near future but I need time to propose it... |
Well, I don't know much about this, so perhaps I'm missing something. But...
It seems to me that the people who actually need binaries, to be able to maintain a system at all, are likely to be people who have limited hardware. People who have super-duper-computers might get some slight advantage from binary hosting, but it (probably) won't be make-or-break for them. It would be nice if the binary host were more usable for people with old-ish hardware, who have to be very picky about what they install.
At the same time, I can see why there's little mileage in maintaining a binary repository just for old-ish hardware. We don't seem to live in a world where things are built to last. Running ten-year-old laptops is almost retro-computing, by modern views. I guess it's a generational thing -- I grew up in a time and place where money was tight and, if you needed to buy something, you'd scrimp and save until you could buy the most expensive instance of it on the market -- and then expect it to outlive you. And maybe your grandchildren. My piano is 120 years old, and I'm confident it will last another couple of generations. I'm sure that my old Lenovos will still be capable of doing good service long after I'm worm-food, and it saddens me that we just discard working stuff without a second thought.
But I appreciate that it's not the job of a Linux distribution maintainer to swim against that particular current.
BR, Lars. |
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logrusx Advocate
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 8:32 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | It would be nice if the binary host were more usable for people with old-ish hardware, who have to be very picky about what they install. |
That's what I meant with that:
logrusx wrote: |
I would add that with the introduction of the binhost, development towards more customization and flexibility is to be expected. |
lars_the_bear wrote: | People who have super-duper-computers might get some slight advantage from binary hosting, but it (probably) won't be make-or-break for them. |
Don't underestimate the usefulness of the binhost. I'm not with super-duper-computer but it's still very powerful and I still find the binhost so useful that I modified my use preferences to take as much use of it as possible.
lars_the_bear wrote: | At the same time, I can see why there's little mileage in maintaining a binary repository just for old-ish hardware. |
Do not underestimate old hardware and the need for its support too. There are plenty of people here who use more than decade old computers.
lars_the_bear wrote: | We don't seem to live in a world where things are built to last. Running ten-year-old laptops is almost retro-computing, by modern views. |
Modern views are overestimated. I'm from that generation where we could look important just by our alleged computing needs. It's all hot air. After being forced to use my old computer from 2005 with a few upgrades from 2007 I can confidently say that. Even the smartphones are unnecessarily powerful and capable. People use them for literal nonsense.
In my opinion you just need to get used to Gentoo and even if you don't give yourself that time you'll feel uncomfortable when you leave it. Also, as I said above, things will only get better as the new use cases for the binhost are getting uncovered. New development towards customization related to it is yet to happen. What you see now is practically nothing. It's still in its infancy.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:15 am Post subject: |
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logrusx wrote: | Even the smartphones are unnecessarily powerful and capable. People use them for literal nonsense. |
Yeah, preach it
I'm quite happy with my ten-year-old phone, except that I have to run LineageOS on it because the vendors stopped issuing updates eight years ago. I hate to see Linux going the same way.
Quote: | In my opinion you just need to get used to Gentoo and even if you don't give yourself that time you'll feel uncomfortable when you leave it. |
Indeed. It's entirely plausible that I could manage this situation better if I knew more. I still have a few months with serious computers before I have to send them back, and fall back on my own limited resources.
And I can't deny that Gentoo has come closest to making my old laptops fly again. However, Fedora 14 worked well, back in the Gnome 2, pre-systemd days, so that's kind-of the system I want to replicate. Only with support for modern applications.
I'd hate to dump Gentoo, because it's tantalizingly close to providing what I want.
BR, Lars. |
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Hu Administrator
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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You keep referencing how you have powerful hardware that you will lose when you retire, and that you don't want to buy new hardware out of retirement savings. Have you explored whether the company would sell you one of these more powerful systems instead of requiring you to return it? It's likely not that new anymore, so they may be only a year or two from retiring it for general hardware refresh reasons. If so, they might let you buy it for much cheaper than you could find powerful hardware on the open market. Since you've already been using it, you have a good idea of how well it has been treated, which you wouldn't know when you buy something secondhand from a discount electronics store / online exchange. |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hu wrote: | Have you explored whether the company would sell you one of these more powerful systems instead of requiring you to return it? |
Thanks. It's a great idea, but the business leases this stuff. Some I've been allowed to keep, over the years, which is how I've ended up with a stack of old laptops. But the good stuff they want back, sadly. But good idea, though; thanks.
BR, Lars. |
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C5ace Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 8:26 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | C5ace wrote: | lars_the_bear wrote: | C5ace wrote: |
Try Calculate Linux. This is 100% compiled Gentoo with a slightly different layout of the / file system structure. You can optionally use emerge to recompile with different USE flags. I installed today Calculate Linux XFCE with Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice on a VirtualBox VM with 2GB RAM single CPU. |
Thanks. I did try it, briefly. The problem is that I couldn't make the installer use my pre-existing filesystem layout. I have 6Gb of my data on this laptop and, while it's backed up, it's an awful lot of data to restore, if I accidentally create a new filesystem on top of it. I suspect if I knew more about Calculate, I might be able to figure out how to install it in a safe way. It's on my to-do list.
BR, Lars. |
What is the disk size, partition layout and file system? |
Thanks. The problem is that I would have to install onto a disk that is already formatted, in a particular way. There are partitions for encrypted user data, and unencrypted user data. There are also partitions for EFI and boot, and all the usual stuff.
I couldn't find a way to run the Calculate installer in such a way to be sure it wouldn't overwrite my layout. The documentation does say how to reassign the system and home partitions, but it doesn't say whether it can find an existing EFI partition. To be sure, I guess I'd have to set up a working Linux in a VM with a particular layout, and then see if I could run the Calculate installer without breaking it. The documentation isn't very clear on this.
But, to be honest, I was put off from the start, because the documentation says that Calculate doesn't like to use a separate /home partition. I always do that, so I can use the same /home with multiple different Linux versions. I could probably work around this but, again, I'd have to try it in a VM, to be sure it works.
None of this was a problem in Gentoo, because I had to create my own /etc/fstab as part of the install. It's also not a problem for Fedora, because its installer seems smart enough to adapt to an existing disk layout, with a bit of help. Calculate might be fine, also -- I just haven't yet had time to try.
BR, Lars. |
You can do manual disk partitioning. This will keep your /home and EFI partitions. I don't know whether your encrypted partition will remain accessible. _________________ Observation after 30 years working with computers:
All software has known and unknown bugs and vulnerabilities. Especially software written in complex, unstable and object oriented languages such as perl, python, C++, C#, Rust and the likes. |
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lars_the_bear Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 8:51 am Post subject: |
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C5ace wrote: |
You can do manual disk partitioning. This will keep your /home and EFI partitions. I don't know whether your encrypted partition will remain accessible. |
Fair enough. The Calculate installer doesn't seem tp provide any way to say which the EFI partition is, but perhaps it doesn't have, because it's always in the same place? The encrypted data thing is a big deal. I was worried about that when I first installed Gentoo, but it all worked out in the end, after a few tense moments.
BR, Lars. |
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szatox Advocate
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Calculate installer doesn't seem tp provide any way to say which the EFI partition is, but perhaps it doesn't have, because it's always in the same place? | EFI is identified by a type code in partition table and there can only be one on any device, so automatically detecting it would be quite sensible. _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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mrbassie l33t
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Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Where do you go, when even Gentoo isn't enough? |
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lars_the_bear wrote: | unless you want to fiddle with it all the time? |
I dunno about anybody else but you'd need a nuclear powered something or other to scrape my violin off the ceiling.
EDIT: Brevity an so forth _________________ I spent a christmas in Vienna twenty something years ago. It was a beautiful city. Everyone was so friendly. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
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Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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iars_the_bear,
Gentoo has got a lot more flexability than is displayed by the knobs provided by the official ::gentoo repo.
e.g. the xorg-server ebuild forces the use of elogind or systemd.
They both do the root setup required to be able to run the server as an upriviledged user.
There is another way. Its not officially suppored but it's the way it's always been until a year or two ago.
Run xorg-server as root.
The ebuild won't let you do that but if you regard the ::gentoo repo as a collection of starting points and not always to be used as given, the possibilities explode.
The repo is fuld of examples like that, it's down to what the developers have time to test and support.
If you do decide to stray from the well trodden path, post in Unsupported Software.
We have a few users, including me, who do just what I'm hinting at.
Its your Gentoo, your way. When it breaks, you can keep all the pieces. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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pjp Administrator
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Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | There is another way. Its not officially suppored but it's the way it's always been until a year or two ago.
Run xorg-server as root. | Is it not supported via "-elogind -systemd suid"? I haven't done anything special except set those flags, with suid leaving the old way more or less intact. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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dmpogo Advocate
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 3362 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:19 am Post subject: |
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pjp wrote: | NeddySeagoon wrote: | There is another way. Its not officially suppored but it's the way it's always been until a year or two ago.
Run xorg-server as root. | Is it not supported via "-elogind -systemd suid"? I haven't done anything special except set those flags, with suid leaving the old way more or less intact. |
Same here, that is my setup as well |
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