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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 381
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 Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | Are you willing to compromise on obtaining hardware fit for purpose? Are you willing to compromise on not running memory intensive software? |
I'm specifically trying to use Gentoo for the express purpose of running software I want to run, on the hardware I have. I could (if I could afford it) buy new hardware, or decide that I don't need to run, say, Darktable after all.
But that wouldn't be compromise, it would be surrender. I don't think compromise and surrender are the same thing at all. I don't think it's really fair to accuse me of being uncompromising, because I won't simply decide not to use the software I need to use. Stubborn, maybe, but not uncompromising.
BR, Lars. |
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pingtoo
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1125
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear,
I think Hu's point are extreme but it is a good point, you said you are welling to compromise but you have yet show how you will.
You have given multiple advise said enable certain flags does not mean you will be actually running them, you have also given advise that you don't need to turn full on to build for quick result, Portage can be adjust to slow build therefor unlikely will cause "fire"
After all these suggestion you still claim Gentoo does not do what you want and do Gentoo way will compromise you goal. This is where it start make me wander why.
Gentoo fundamentally is a big receipe book that you follow and cook (build) from source. Having some binary ready just fruit on top of cake it should not be consider it is Gentoo's main sale point.
Did you attracted to Gentoo in the first place because there are many ready made Gentoo binary package ready? |
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GDH-gentoo
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Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1636
Location: South America
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | But that wouldn't be compromise, it would be surrender. I don't think compromise and surrender are the same thing at all. |
Fine, let's use your words, then.
| lars_the_bear wrote: | | I'm specifically trying to use Gentoo for the express purpose of running software I want to run, on the hardware I have. |
What you are being told, repeatedly (I find Hu's post a good summary), is that this goal might be impossible without "surrendering". Clear now?
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | I'm not a witch, I'm a retired electronics engineer  |
| Ionen wrote: | | As a packager I just don't want things to get messier with weird build systems and multiple toolchains requirements though |
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lars_the_bear
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Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| pingtoo wrote: |
Did you attracted to Gentoo in the first place because there are many ready made Gentoo binary package ready? |
That's certainly partially true. I don't think I would have considered Gentoo for old-ish hardware when everything had to be compiled from source. I kind-of assumed that I would get more use of binary packages than I have so far been able to.
I appreciate that the provision of binary packages at all is a relatively new thing for Gentoo. Still, from where I sit, the priorities of the package providers seem to be backwards. If you've got a new, powerful system, the ability to use binary packages might just be 'icing on the cake' as you say. If you're trying to set up a minimal system, that will run well on old hardware, then the provision of a wide range of compatible, easy-to-uuse binaries could be make-or-break, not just a nice add-on feature. It seems to me that binary hosting is of least benefit to systems that need it most.
One of the great things about Linux for me has always (so far) been that you don't need up-to-the-minute hardware to run it effectively. Well, that always used to be the case. But the mainstream distributions these days are heavy, bloated monstrosities, whose providers couldn't care less about anything more than two years old.
With no real evidence (mea culpa), I kind-of thought Gentoo would be different. And to some extent it is -- but to use it I have to accept either
a. A two-week installation time, then 2-4 days of constant compilation every couple of weeks, or
b. A whole load of fiddling, with uncertain results.
What really rankles me is that I didn't have to make this choice in 2014. Linux just worked. It took an hour to install Fedora 10 (or whatever) and then it flew.
Ten years of technological development and Linux has gotten less useful -- and nobody seems to care.
Maybe you have to be as old as me, to find this situation so galling. I drive a ten-year-old car, and it still works fine. I have hifi equipment from the 70s, and that's still going strong. Heck, I live in a 200-year-old house, and that still works fine. But electronics and computer stuff? Nope. Two years, throw it in the trash.
Of course, I appreciate that it isn't the job of Gentoo to correct our socio-economic disasters. Still, if I could make one suggestion, it would be that the folks who decide what goes into the Gentoo binary host consider providing packages with fewer dependencies, that would be installable more readily (with less fiddling) on low-resource systems. Then, perhaps, Gentoo would contribute to a general reduction in the techno-waste that we have brought upon ourselves. And that would be a reason for pride, I think.
BR, Lars. |
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pingtoo
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1125
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear,
You sound like someone appreciate oldies so you surely can understand in the old day thing don't get ready like today's fast food. in the old day things take times to prepare and some effort to present it.
Maybe it is my poor English skill so if I made an offence please forget me. I got a feeling you are mixing Linux and Gentoo (or any other distros) in to same thing. In my mind Linux is the "kernel" that manage the hardware give the "user land" a fixed api, so the "user land" can interact with hardware without knowing each hardware specific requirement.
And in my mind "user land" are Gentoo (or any other distros) and Linux still the same as the day it was released still capable running on hardware that day back to 2014 or even earlier. (I have two Raspberry PI 1, they are just running fine for simple task like DNS serving, admitting they don't run gentoo, they run openwrt)
If you consider "A two-week installation time or longer" is not acceptable than ignore what I have to said follow. Because the idea just not going to work.
May I propose spend some effort to study what is already offered by Gentoo and plan a two weeks or little bit more time for installation for a near perfect setup for you system?
I would further suggest don't update you system after the initial setup until you actually run into difficulty with some application or a new requirement rise. The next system wide update is when you plan to move on to new hardware. Because there is no piratical reason to contiguously update just to get latest something and most likely you don't need that latest something for your work.
Gentoo does not require you always do world update. If you agree my idea, you can always just update the single package that you have need for it. leave the rest to Portage system to determine if any dependent require also updated.
On another subject,
I may not be as old as you are, but I do remember when I download (or was it not "download" but collect with "uucp") Linux at version "0.3" (or "0.7") on my NeXT computer. Then I was young boy just start my work in IT and want to learn everything about computer. It was fun to know that in next day I will have uucp transfer everything down to my computer. It was fun to learn how system initial CPU to find the first jump location to start execution.
Allow me to propose again  I be happy to work with you to come up a build plan. As I am in process of working out my own Gentoo Catalys stage4 build process. I will be happy to share my experience on the process. |
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eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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https://bugs.gentoo.org/938535
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/binhost.git/commit/?id=bab77981ca0ef93471f789860b84d7dad876dfe1
I've been looking forward to this for about half a year.
There is now a qtwebengine binary package built with USE="-qml -pulseaudio -screencast". I will be figuring out how to do proper variant support in a bit (things like rebuilding @world with pulseaudio/bluetooth disabled) without limiting myself to a maximum of 3 global configurations. There are some other changes in the pipeline too -- we now build all packages with a PGO variant and will be phasing in -flto, so you can get the advantage of very expensive optimized compiles without actually doing it yourself.
We are still most likely not going to offer every possible combination of USE flags. But there is a lot of low-hanging fruit left to pick. I am even open to reasonable suggestions.
I won't say I told you so. |
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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2024 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: |
We are still most likely not going to offer every possible combination of USE flags. But there is a lot of low-hanging fruit left to pick. I am even open to reasonable suggestions.
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Thank you. Is there a good channel to make such suggestions?
BR, Lars. |
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eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Creating a new bug category for binhost requests is under consideration. You can also visit #gentoo-binhost on the Libera.Chat IRC network (as with all official IRC support and development channels) to discuss it. (I'm available as "ztrawhcse"). |
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Installing Gentoo
