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Spanik
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Joined: 12 Dec 2003
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Location: Belgium
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 Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:11 am Post subject: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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If I read the KDE website they make a big play about with the change to Wayland KDE now remembers the setup of your windows. Well it is a lot worse then before... Before I had all my windows back in the right desktop but sometimes not where I left them.
When I start now, it just put all windows that were open on the first desktop. This while I arrange my desktops "by function": internet, music, work, virtual machines. And it also opens the same window several times. I only have a single mùusic player open but at startup I now have 2-3 of them. Same with virtualbox.
Is this any setting somewhere or just plain "new but worse"?
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Banana
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Spanik
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:50 am Post subject: |
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First opened in 2000. WOW, just wow. You'd think that by now programmers would have licked it.
Looks like the only way to stay sane will be to close each and every window before stopping the pc. Each time something comes along to promise "better" experience it gets worse.
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asturm
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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| Spanik wrote: | | If I read the KDE website they make a big play about with the change to Wayland KDE now remembers the setup of your windows. |
What exactly did you read, where?
| Spanik wrote: | | Well it is a lot worse then before... Before I had all my windows back in the right desktop but sometimes not where I left them. |
... that ...
| Spanik wrote: |
First opened in 2000. WOW, just wow. You'd think that by now programmers would have licked it. |
... and that (a wishlist bug for a feature, not a bug) sounds like really different topics though.
So it helps to stay focussed, search for existing better fitting bugs upstream or file a new one if there is none to be found, instead of directing your anger towards devs prematurely. And for starters, you could also disclose *any* kind of versions you are currently using (kinfocenter has a neat copy-to-clipboard function).
| Spanik wrote: | | Looks like the only way to stay sane will be to close each and every window before stopping the pc. Each time something comes along to promise "better" experience it gets worse. |
Of course you could simply disable session management instead of closing them all manually. |
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Spanik
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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| asturm wrote: | | Spanik wrote: | | If I read the KDE website they make a big play about with the change to Wayland KDE now remembers the setup of your windows. |
What exactly did you read, where? |
First page of the KDE site when I searched. That is exactly what got me riled up.
| asturm wrote: | | Spanik wrote: | | Well it is a lot worse then before... Before I had all my windows back in the right desktop but sometimes not where I left them. |
... that ...
| Spanik wrote: |
First opened in 2000. WOW, just wow. You'd think that by now programmers would have licked it. |
... and that (a wishlist bug for a feature, not a bug) sounds like really different topics though. |
First line of that page: "Bug 15329"
| Code: | Reported: 2000-11-14 13:48 UTC by abrahams
Modified: 2024-11-04 14:07 UTC (History) |
24 years later, it is still going... But yeah, all that shiny new stuff and we are worse off then before:
| Code: | Native Wayland windows cannot save and restore their window positions; KWin would need to do it: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329
Session-restored XWayland windows go on the wrong screens and virtual desktops: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=468252 + https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421870
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| asturm wrote: | | So it helps to stay focussed, search for existing better fitting bugs upstream or file a new one if there is none to be found, instead of directing your anger towards devs prematurely. And for starters, you could also disclose *any* kind of versions you are currently using (kinfocenter has a neat copy-to-clipboard function). |
Have fun:
| Code: | Operating System: Gentoo Linux 2.15
KDE Plasma Version: 6.1.5
KDE Frameworks Version: 6.6.0
Qt Version: 6.7.2
Kernel Version: 6.6.38-gentoo (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Processors: 48 × AMD EPYC 7401P 24-Core Processor
Memory: 62.8 GiB of RAM
Graphics Processor: NVD9 |
| asturm wrote: | | Spanik wrote: | | Looks like the only way to stay sane will be to close each and every window before stopping the pc. Each time something comes along to promise "better" experience it gets worse. |
Of course you could simply disable session management instead of closing them all manually. |
[/quote]
I could also go back to terminal mode. You don't seem to like that I can't appreciate that thing get worse when developers see "oh, new, shiny" and then deliver turds that are worse than the code we have been living on for years. Each time everything gets usable and stable they find a new language, a new paradigm and there they go. They want to invent a better wheel. Only they end up with a five-sided square. Up comes sysmd, piulseaudio, wayland, python, perl, rust... All new and shiny and giving us more issues then anything they "solve and improve".
Sorry, I'm a user and I find myself with each improvement getting a worse experience. And I don't like it.
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Hu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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| Spanik wrote: | | asturm wrote: | | Of course you could simply disable session management instead of closing them all manually. |
I could also go back to terminal mode. You don't seem to like that I can't appreciate that thing get worse when developers see "oh, new, shiny" and then deliver turds that are worse than the code we have been living on for years. |
asturm's point was that if session management misbehaves for you, then instead of suppressing its behavior by explicitly closing each and every window, you should disable session management, at which point it should automatically forget all the windows, without requiring you to close them before logging out. I understand you do not like how it works now. I make no comment or excuse for whether the current behavior is good or right. I only observe that if your goal is not to have any windows come back, there is a simpler way to do that, and asturm tried to point you to that simpler way, but you got sidetracked ranting about how nice it would be if session management worked the way you want. |
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Spanik
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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| Hu wrote: | | asturm's point was that if session management misbehaves for you, then instead of suppressing its behavior by explicitly closing each and every window, you should disable session management, at which point it should automatically forget all the windows, without requiring you to close them before logging out. I understand you do not like how it works now. I make no comment or excuse for whether the current behavior is good or right. I only observe that if your goal is not to have any windows come back, there is a simpler way to do that, and asturm tried to point you to that simpler way, but you got sidetracked ranting about how nice it would be if session management worked the way you want. |
Ok, but it is not "how I want it" or "that I don't want to start with no windows". If I look from all the bugs about it that are opened I'm not the only one that would like this to work as it says on the box: "session restore". It did work before the move to new and shiny Wayland. This was working in NT4.0 sp6a with multiple desktops!
So yeah, sorry but I rant when I see software that is released as "new and better" and it is clearly not ready, not better, half-assed working and certainly not tested.
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asturm
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to have trouble understanding that this linked bug is not related to yours. This is especially inconsistent with you describing a regression. Did you open a bug about a 24 years old regression?
Rant less, read more.
| Spanik wrote: | | First page of the KDE site when I searched. That is exactly what got me riled up. |
I don't find anything you describe on https://kde.org/ "first page".
| Spanik wrote: | Have fun:
| Code: | Operating System: Gentoo Linux 2.15
KDE Plasma Version: 6.1.5
KDE Frameworks Version: 6.6.0
Qt Version: 6.7.2
Kernel Version: 6.6.38-gentoo (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Processors: 48 × AMD EPYC 7401P 24-Core Processor
Memory: 62.8 GiB of RAM
Graphics Processor: NVD9 |
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Good to know that you would have the option of trying out newer versions by switching to ~arch. Are you sure that, what you say you read on kde.org, did refer to your KDE Plasma version 6.1.5?
This is, by the way, not fun, but it should be self explanatory when you open a thread in a support forum, presumably to receive help by others. Because if you do not want help, you could request this to be moved to Gentoo Chat instead. |
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Ralphred
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Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: KDE: windows are a mess at startup |
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| Hu wrote: | | how nice it would be if session management worked the way you want. |
Continuing on this subject, I have a very complicated "post login scripted procedure", to the point calling the script that manages it "a mini init system" is not out of order.
Session management is always going to be plagued by desktop crashes and other things outside of the hands of devs: If "logging out" of a desired session and revoking write access to the "session state storage area" doesn't produce the result you want, then I can share my "mini init" if you like spanik. It would take some effort to set-up, but has fulfilled my demands for over 10 years, so... |
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finoderi
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Oct 2021
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Plasma wayland doesn't have a properly functioning session restore for now due to the nature of wayland. There is nothing can be done about it by now. Saying to Gentoo devs how you dislike KDE devs is a strange way to come to terms with a harsh reality of life. |
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finoderi
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Joined: 29 Oct 2021
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair there is a lot of stuff that didn't work on wayland but works now. For quite some time clipboard weren't working between different apps and now it works flawlessly. There were problems with different icons in Task Manager - you would see a generic wayland icon for some apps. It's fixed in most cases now. There weren't any miniatures for opened windows in Task manager and they are now. The only way to enable colour correction was using colormgr in console and now it works in System Settings. And all that was done in about two years.
It should give you hope session restore will get fixed soon as well. I've never used it. In early 2000s my PC had rather low specs and only 30 Gb of storage space. So I always close windows and browser tabs I don't need right now and feel pretty comfortable without a lot of clutter on my desktop. |
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Spanik
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| finoderi wrote: | | Plasma wayland doesn't have a properly functioning session restore for now due to the nature of wayland. There is nothing can be done about it by now. Saying to Gentoo devs how you dislike KDE devs is a strange way to come to terms with a harsh reality of life. |
You are correct that this isn't up to the Gentoo devs to fix this. I first tought it could be me missing some new setting.
| finoderi wrote: | To be fair there is a lot of stuff that didn't work on wayland but works now. For quite some time clipboard weren't working between different apps and now it works flawlessly. There were problems with different icons in Task Manager - you would see a generic wayland icon for some apps. It's fixed in most cases now. There weren't any miniatures for opened windows in Task manager and they are now. The only way to enable colour correction was using colormgr in console and now it works in System Settings. And all that was done in about two years.
It should give you hope session restore will get fixed soon as well. I've never used it. In early 2000s my PC had rather low specs and only 30 Gb of storage space. So I always close windows and browser tabs I don't need right now and feel pretty comfortable without a lot of clutter on my desktop. |
What you are saying here is that Wayland is just immature and shouldn't be used rolled out until it at least achieves basic functionality on par with what it claims to replace and improve. And I'm not sure that some of what is broken is due to wayland, I think much is kde devs just wanting to jump on the waggon and not testing.
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finoderi
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanik wrote: | | And I'm not sure that some of what is broken is due to wayland, I think much is kde devs just wanting to jump on the waggon and not testing. |
Well, it's complicated. In an effort to do things right wayland creators made really bare bones protocol. And as a result DE devs had to fill in all what's missing on their own from scratch. KDE devs in particular developed new functionality in kwin in parallel with wlroots development. Now it would be preferable to just use wlroots but it didn't exist when KDE devs began to work on their implementation of wayland compositor. It was a mess but it's got a lot better recently. |
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