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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9320
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 Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | I was shocked when the latest kspectacle came out with the dependence on opecv (1.5 Gb library which take good part of an hour to compile on a laptop) with additional numpy dependence. |
Not quite.
| Code: | * media-libs/opencv-4.9.0-r2
Total files : 1056
Total size : 62.38 MiB |
You are a Gentoo user, right?
But still, you're citing an application, when this thread was about library usage. |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3774
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | and recommend ye big old monolith library dependent KDE-3 offspring.
"Old" is not the same as minimal, is not the same as lightweight or fast. |
| Zucca wrote: | | So I would guess it's quite lightweight to run on modern machines. |
It was only my guess. A wild throw, if you will.
Best way to know would be to install it and try it out for some time. Then decide if it's lightweight enough for ones needs.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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pingtoo
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1339
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Understood OP does not want "wayland" But,
Just want to check in case the X version search is fruitless and there is actually a "better" minimalism wayland setup, Is such thing exist? |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9320
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course they exist, but at this point you should reconsider where you are. Going on that tangent will not be well received by the OP. There may be a better existing thread but let me just refer you (and other readers) to https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1132167.html |
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pingtoo
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1339
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Of course they exist, but at this point you should reconsider where you are. Going on that tangent will not be well received by the OP. There may be a better existing thread but let me just refer you (and other readers) to https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1132167.html |
Thanks that is good link to start. |
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CaptainBlood
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3977
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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TL;DR
gui-wm/labwc seems one of the lightest WM, wayland however.
Recently read somewhere gui-wm/labwc is the Fedora current desktop base, iirc.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
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Chiitoo
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2740
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Not an alternative, but regarding the LXQt upstream decisions on the topic, here's one of the several issues created about it:
https://github.com/lxqt/lxqt/issues/2579
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pa4wdh
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Joined: 16 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the good discussions here.
Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency which i need for a PC that doesn't have video output.
Regarding the discussion on the LXQt issue, in the end the change didn't make it into the code. So far they are confirming that looking for an alternative is the right way to go for me.
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The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
USE="-war" emerge --newuse @world
My shared code repository: https://code.pa4wdh.nl.eu.org
Music, Free as in Freedom: https://www.jamendo.com |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info.
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dmpogo
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
I don't believe I was asking you, as you are only making a guess about his end.
Edit to add: display forwarding doesn't really have anything to do with network transparency, rdp, vnc, etc all shove bits around.
DISPLAY=IP:port and having it connect is network transparency, beyond that it's simply pushing bits at which native X sucks big time.
Which is why things like ssh utilizing the X protocol came about, adding compression in the process.
Local network is fine for X, global networking has it's share of problems, unless you have a fast dedicated pipe to wherever you are trying to connect to.
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Zucca
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Years back I used ssh -X to my home server. But it was slow. I tried to tinker with the compression and encryption settings, but really never got it working properly. Either the problem was on my network or in the X forwarding/networking settings. I should have tried it with the 16Gbps Infiniband which I had set up on that house I lived back then. RDMA could really boost the performance... if it is supported by the protocol?
One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone?
Eventually I settled to resize windows to a point where the experience of using remote programs wasn't laggy.
Yeah, it would be nice to have some 3D modeling program to do its grunt on a server, while showing the gui on some underpowered laptop. But I haven't had opportunity (or need.. yet) to actually try out the comparable tools on the wayland side.
EDIT: Dang it. I thought I was posting on the another "X <-> wayland" -topic. Oh well. Sorry for the derailing.
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| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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pa4wdh
l33t
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 892
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
I don't believe I was asking you, as you are only making a guess about his end.
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He might be quessing, but he's guessing right  . As far as i'm aware this is commonly referred to as network transparency and that's why i've chosen those words here, i'm sorry if that caused confusion.
In it's basic form it's like setting the DISPLAY variable and starting an application which displays wherever the DISPLAY variable points to. In my specific use case i'm even using XDMCP so i can get a login screen on a Xephir server running on my desktop.
Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed.
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The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6175
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | He might be quessing, but he's guessing right . As far as i'm aware this is commonly referred to as network transparency and that's why i've chosen those words here, i'm sorry if that caused confusion. |
No confusion, but people mean different things with terms like "network transparency", thus my question.
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22853
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | Years back I used ssh -X to my home server. But it was slow. |
In my experience, X forwarding can be very sensitive to round trip latency. Running anything complicated over a WAN was painful, but even a fairly modest bandwidth LAN was quite viable due to the much lower round trip time. Results also depend heavily on the complexity of the rendering. Another big factor is whether you have ForwardX11Trusted=yes or not. In the =no case, the remote clients are stuck with a much less capable subset of the X protocol, and things that can be viable at =yes are clearly slow when run with =no.
| Zucca wrote: | | One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone? |
This exists, under the name xpra (X Persistent Remote Apps). I have it used it for years, and it is quite viable for what I do. Like tmux, the X client renders to a server that stays alive and accessible (usually on the same machine as the X client). When you want to see the window, you connect to the xpra server and render its data locally. When you don't need to see the window, you disconnect, and the application continues to render to the headless X server in the background. xpra is packaged in Gentoo as x11-wm/xpra. I don't run anything particularly heavy under xpra, so I don't know how a 3D modeling tool would fare. |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3774
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed. |
So I guess this functionality isn't in Xwayland?
I don't really know the current landscape of "remote gui" on Linux. But having remote gui program displayed on a (thin) client has its advantages compared to the full remote desktop.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed. |
So I guess this functionality isn't in Xwayland? |
I guess it refers the fact that X works kinda backwards. It makes sense once you think about it, but it is completely counter-intuitive.
In human terms your thin terminal is a client, because you use it to connect to control a remote machine (the application server). This is what we're used to thinking.
In X11 terms this thin terminal runs the server and the remote application is the client. The remote application connects to your thin terminal and controls pixels on the screen.
It's not about whether wayland can do it or not, it's about where the relevant pieces in X-world are.
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CaptainBlood
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just tested working remote firefox-bin with no running remote xorg-server, but only installed.
Can't test with only xwayland installed on remote. My 2 cents it shouldn't work.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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pa4wdh
l33t
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 892
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: |
| Zucca wrote: | | One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone? |
This exists, under the name xpra (X Persistent Remote Apps). I have it used it for years, and it is quite viable for what I do. Like tmux, the X client renders to a server that stays alive and accessible (usually on the same machine as the X client). When you want to see the window, you connect to the xpra server and render its data locally. When you don't need to see the window, you disconnect, and the application continues to render to the headless X server in the background. xpra is packaged in Gentoo as x11-wm/xpra. I don't run anything particularly heavy under xpra, so I don't know how a 3D modeling tool would fare. |
There is also x2go, which also does some tricks to make it less harsh on the network, which is very useful for low bandwidth connections. I use it on a regular basis to run a remote firefox or libreoffice and it works well for me. The client and server are in ::gentoo and work well.
_________________
The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
USE="-war" emerge --newuse @world
My shared code repository: https://code.pa4wdh.nl.eu.org
Music, Free as in Freedom: https://www.jamendo.com |
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dmpogo
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed. |
So I guess this functionality isn't in Xwayland? |
I guess it refers the fact that X works kinda backwards. It makes sense once you think about it, but it is completely counter-intuitive.
In human terms your thin terminal is a client, because you use it to connect to control a remote machine (the application server). This is what we're used to thinking.
In X11 terms this thin terminal runs the server and the remote application is the client. The remote application connects to your thin terminal and controls pixels on the screen.
It's not about whether wayland can do it or not, it's about where the relevant pieces in X-world are. |
And for many tasks (and I think that conceptually all) it makes sense to have displaying part (X server in X11 model) to run on the machine where display is, and were you can utilize hardware properties, rather than render bitmaps on the end where display hardware is unknown.
When I do 3D visualization, and then rotate 3D cube under X11, it is done basically in GPU and is fast. Over vnc type connections it is an unusable pain.
Over the years, there was come and go what works faster - X11 model or vnc/remote desktop, depending on heaviness of the graphity cs versus speed of connection.
Through the 90-s in my university with 100 Mb ethernet connections, and relatively simple desktop/visualization X11 model was fantastic. I did not pay attention at what machine
I am running my desktop today.
in 2000-s, with relatively slow 1-3 Mbit home connections and appearing of more demanding graphics, from home it was more vnc. Then once in 2010 we were trying to visualize data from our French server while sititng in UK, and it was all frozen under vnc, until we just did X display forwarding and suddently could rotate 3D cubes in real time. Currently I have enough fast internet at home so that I do not need vnc for my needs from office. |
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Desktop Environments
