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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9307
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 Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | I was shocked when the latest kspectacle came out with the dependence on opecv (1.5 Gb library which take good part of an hour to compile on a laptop) with additional numpy dependence. |
Not quite.
| Code: | * media-libs/opencv-4.9.0-r2
Total files : 1056
Total size : 62.38 MiB |
You are a Gentoo user, right?
But still, you're citing an application, when this thread was about library usage. |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3747
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | and recommend ye big old monolith library dependent KDE-3 offspring.
"Old" is not the same as minimal, is not the same as lightweight or fast. |
| Zucca wrote: | | So I would guess it's quite lightweight to run on modern machines. |
It was only my guess. A wild throw, if you will.
Best way to know would be to install it and try it out for some time. Then decide if it's lightweight enough for ones needs.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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pingtoo
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1290
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Understood OP does not want "wayland" But,
Just want to check in case the X version search is fruitless and there is actually a "better" minimalism wayland setup, Is such thing exist? |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9307
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course they exist, but at this point you should reconsider where you are. Going on that tangent will not be well received by the OP. There may be a better existing thread but let me just refer you (and other readers) to https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1132167.html |
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pingtoo
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Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1290
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Of course they exist, but at this point you should reconsider where you are. Going on that tangent will not be well received by the OP. There may be a better existing thread but let me just refer you (and other readers) to https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1132167.html |
Thanks that is good link to start. |
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CaptainBlood
Advocate
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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TL;DR
gui-wm/labwc seems one of the lightest WM, wayland however.
Recently read somewhere gui-wm/labwc is the Fedora current desktop base, iirc.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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Chiitoo
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Not an alternative, but regarding the LXQt upstream decisions on the topic, here's one of the several issues created about it:
https://github.com/lxqt/lxqt/issues/2579
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Kindest of regardses. |
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pa4wdh
l33t
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 891
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the good discussions here.
Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency which i need for a PC that doesn't have video output.
Regarding the discussion on the LXQt issue, in the end the change didn't make it into the code. So far they are confirming that looking for an alternative is the right way to go for me.
_________________
The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
USE="-war" emerge --newuse @world
My shared code repository: https://code.pa4wdh.nl.eu.org
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6167
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info.
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UM780, 6.1 zen kernel, gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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dmpogo
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6167
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
I don't believe I was asking you, as you are only making a guess about his end.
Edit to add: display forwarding doesn't really have anything to do with network transparency, rdp, vnc, etc all shove bits around.
DISPLAY=IP:port and having it connect is network transparency, beyond that it's simply pushing bits at which native X sucks big time.
Which is why things like ssh utilizing the X protocol came about, adding compression in the process.
Local network is fine for X, global networking has it's share of problems, unless you have a fast dedicated pipe to wherever you are trying to connect to.
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3747
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Years back I used ssh -X to my home server. But it was slow. I tried to tinker with the compression and encryption settings, but really never got it working properly. Either the problem was on my network or in the X forwarding/networking settings. I should have tried it with the 16Gbps Infiniband which I had set up on that house I lived back then. RDMA could really boost the performance... if it is supported by the protocol?
One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone?
Eventually I settled to resize windows to a point where the experience of using remote programs wasn't laggy.
Yeah, it would be nice to have some 3D modeling program to do its grunt on a server, while showing the gui on some underpowered laptop. But I haven't had opportunity (or need.. yet) to actually try out the comparable tools on the wayland side.
EDIT: Dang it. I thought I was posting on the another "X <-> wayland" -topic. Oh well. Sorry for the derailing.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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pa4wdh
l33t
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 891
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | pa4wdh wrote: | | Indeed, wayland is not an option here. I need X11 for it's network transparency |
What do you mean by network transparency?
How are you using network connectivity, vnc, rdp, ssh?
I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanting more info. |
What do you mean ? Obviously X11 display forwarding, when you run a program on one machine but the result is displayed on another is meant here. |
I don't believe I was asking you, as you are only making a guess about his end.
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He might be quessing, but he's guessing right  . As far as i'm aware this is commonly referred to as network transparency and that's why i've chosen those words here, i'm sorry if that caused confusion.
In it's basic form it's like setting the DISPLAY variable and starting an application which displays wherever the DISPLAY variable points to. In my specific use case i'm even using XDMCP so i can get a login screen on a Xephir server running on my desktop.
Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed.
_________________
The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
USE="-war" emerge --newuse @world
My shared code repository: https://code.pa4wdh.nl.eu.org
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6167
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | He might be quessing, but he's guessing right . As far as i'm aware this is commonly referred to as network transparency and that's why i've chosen those words here, i'm sorry if that caused confusion. |
No confusion, but people mean different things with terms like "network transparency", thus my question.
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22727
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | Years back I used ssh -X to my home server. But it was slow. |
In my experience, X forwarding can be very sensitive to round trip latency. Running anything complicated over a WAN was painful, but even a fairly modest bandwidth LAN was quite viable due to the much lower round trip time. Results also depend heavily on the complexity of the rendering. Another big factor is whether you have ForwardX11Trusted=yes or not. In the =no case, the remote clients are stuck with a much less capable subset of the X protocol, and things that can be viable at =yes are clearly slow when run with =no.
| Zucca wrote: | | One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone? |
This exists, under the name xpra (X Persistent Remote Apps). I have it used it for years, and it is quite viable for what I do. Like tmux, the X client renders to a server that stays alive and accessible (usually on the same machine as the X client). When you want to see the window, you connect to the xpra server and render its data locally. When you don't need to see the window, you disconnect, and the application continues to render to the headless X server in the background. xpra is packaged in Gentoo as x11-wm/xpra. I don't run anything particularly heavy under xpra, so I don't know how a 3D modeling tool would fare. |
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CaptainBlood
Advocate
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Nice,
Testing x11-wm/xpra stable may currently fails to build as it does here
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22727
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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That patch is only applied with USE=minimal, which I do not use. Shouldn't your USE=-* have disabled USE=minimal?
It looks like someone mangled the filename put into PATCHES. There is a similarly named, but not identically named, patch available in files/ that was probably intended. |
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CaptainBlood
Advocate
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thks 4 the tip.
USE="-* minimal" here. 
We'll see what happens to the report... 
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22727
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam fixed it while I was writing my prior post: comment #1. |
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CaptainBlood
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting case of conditional patching in ebuild, which is not so frequent IIRC.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3747
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| pa4wdh wrote: | | Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed. |
So I guess this functionality isn't in Xwayland?
I don't really know the current landscape of "remote gui" on Linux. But having remote gui program displayed on a (thin) client has its advantages compared to the full remote desktop.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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CaptainBlood
Advocate
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Can't refrain pointing out how old the issue was: 14 months.
Patiently waiting for the day when such issue will be thing of the past...
Until then isn't that bad as long as you report about detected supposedly issues instead of only locally fix.
It also brings risk to been criticized when such a setting has been forgotten/discarded as a source of possible trouble. 
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3462
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Also be aware that ssh X forwarding still requires an X server on the end where the application is supposed to be displayed. |
So I guess this functionality isn't in Xwayland? |
I guess it refers the fact that X works kinda backwards. It makes sense once you think about it, but it is completely counter-intuitive.
In human terms your thin terminal is a client, because you use it to connect to control a remote machine (the application server). This is what we're used to thinking.
In X11 terms this thin terminal runs the server and the remote application is the client. The remote application connects to your thin terminal and controls pixels on the screen.
It's not about whether wayland can do it or not, it's about where the relevant pieces in X-world are.
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CaptainBlood
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Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3910
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just tested working remote firefox-bin with no running remote xorg-server, but only installed.
Can't test with only xwayland installed on remote. My 2 cents it shouldn't work.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
_________________
USE="-* ..." in /etc/portage/make.conf here, i.e. a countermeasure to portage implicit braces, belt & diaper paradigm
LT: "I've been doing a passable imitation of the Fontana di Trevi, except my medium is mucus. Sooo much mucus. " |
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pa4wdh
l33t
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 891
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: |
| Zucca wrote: | | One other thing I couldn't never figure out was how to close the program window, but still let to continue running on the server. Xtmux anyone? |
This exists, under the name xpra (X Persistent Remote Apps). I have it used it for years, and it is quite viable for what I do. Like tmux, the X client renders to a server that stays alive and accessible (usually on the same machine as the X client). When you want to see the window, you connect to the xpra server and render its data locally. When you don't need to see the window, you disconnect, and the application continues to render to the headless X server in the background. xpra is packaged in Gentoo as x11-wm/xpra. I don't run anything particularly heavy under xpra, so I don't know how a 3D modeling tool would fare. |
There is also x2go, which also does some tricks to make it less harsh on the network, which is very useful for low bandwidth connections. I use it on a regular basis to run a remote firefox or libreoffice and it works well for me. The client and server are in ::gentoo and work well.
_________________
The gentoo way of bringing peace to the world:
USE="-war" emerge --newuse @world
My shared code repository: https://code.pa4wdh.nl.eu.org
Music, Free as in Freedom: https://www.jamendo.com |
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Desktop Environments
