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Zucca
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 Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:33 am Post subject: |
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I have global -X. It worked for a while. Eventually some packages required X USE so I've been adding that to those few packages manually.
Also I completely agree to everything in what Anon-E-moose wrote. There's no point in convincing others of which is superior.
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dmpogo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| logrusx wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: |
X-windows have a imaginative forward looking (and having survived 35 years) vision of interconnected computers displaying information on displays elsewhere |
X-windows in that regard looks forward at problems that were present in the past - huge mainframes and remote terminals. However future took an unexpected turn. Nowadays everyone has a supercomputer in 90's terms in their pocket and a super mainframe at home/work. So, no. X-windows is not forward looking. At best tangential.
Today's reality is everyone has plenty of computing power locally and don't need to draw it from somewhere else. And even if one does, it's not the way it was foreseen in the 80's.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
Why then, why did I just apply for 280320 CPU hours again on HPC cluster .... Should have used my phone. And yes, I need to visualize the output. It is exactly the picture I had in the 80-s |
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logrusx
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:45 am Post subject: |
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No one said you should not do it. I only addressed the "forward-looking" part was looking sideways.
But in the next decade or so X11 support will be less and less common. No one want's to support and maintain something so archaic that large parts of it are never used by anything.
Also you seem to be under the influence of the illusion this is the only way to do it. No one stops you to live in the 80's. You'll just find it harder and harder.
Best Regards,
Georgi
p.s. if you were paying that with your own money I doubt you would do it. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| logrusx wrote: | | Also you seem to be under the influence of the illusion this is the only way to do it. |
A lots of "putting words to anothers mouth" here in this topic, I see.
This topic is marching towards the senseless endless debate realm.
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logrusx
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | logrusx wrote: | | Also you seem to be under the influence of the illusion this is the only way to do it. |
A lots of "putting words to anothers mouth" here in this topic, I see.
This topic is marching towards the senseless endless debate realm. |
Same happens to me even unconditionally (people just straight assuming what I said instead of probing if that's so like me with "you seem to") yet I don't complain. If you're going to point it out, do so on all occasions please.
If it's worth switching, it depends on particular needs, not on false arguments which I see a lot in here. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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It's just that, on this topic, I've seen lot's of passive aggressive comments towards others. Especially in the latter posts. Polite arguments seem to be turning not-so-polite.
Here are few examples from various posts: | Quote: | | If you think <blah blah>, you're wrong |
| Quote: | | why the relevance of that argument would be unclear to you |
| Quote: | | you're trying to prove there |
| Quote: | | bringing irrelevant arguments |
The question in this topic cannot be answered with plain yes or no. I'm trying here to tell people to respect each other and not let opinions and point of views escalate into senseless arguments and worse.
Because I've seen this "Xorg vs. wayland" debate escalate way too often (not necessarily on these forums).
I'm all-in wayland, but I don't bash someone who's continuing doing the opposite. We're gentoo users after all. Thus we have a choice.
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logrusx
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| You must be kidding me. I'm out of here. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Just be extra clear, I did not target the previous message to you, logrusx, but rather to all the participants of the topic.
I hope you don't feel mistreated because of this.
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | I'm trying here to tell people to respect each other and not let opinions and point of views escalate into senseless arguments and worse.
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For my part, I apologise. At my age, I ought to be able to resist being wound up by comments on a web forum. My bad.
BR, Lars. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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No need to apologize. :)
I was merely trying to nudge this topic back to its roots.
Now... Let's get back to the topic. ;)
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dmpogo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | No need to apologize.
I was merely trying to nudge this topic back to its roots.
Now... Let's get back to the topic.  |
OK, back to the title (could not resist ) - For myself I do no find it is worth switching to wayland since it does not add anything to my needs, and takes away some options I use. |
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mrbassie
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Location: Go past the sign for cope, right at the sign for seethe. If you see the target you've missed it.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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^Digital hugs.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | I have global -X. It worked for a while. Eventually some packages required X USE so I've been adding that to those few packages manually. |
I've been running with -X (except for fonts) for a long time, the only X app I miss occasionally is xv (image viewer),
though I have found a gui front end, for imagemagicks convert, that effective gives me the same result.
All in all, I'm happy with a wayland only desktop.
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saellaven
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still happily on X. Wayland offers nothing that compels me to switch. I avoided Wayland for years because of the features of X that I use that are missing - network transparency being #1 for me. Even with that "being fixed" now, there's still no reason for me TO switch. I'm busy running a non-tech business, being in a relationship, etc, and I just don't have time to tinker endlessly for fun. I'm aware that, one day, I'll probably be forced to make the time to deal with switching, but right now, everything just works for me the way I want it with X (which is also why I happily stuck with gnome 1 until gnome 2.20 or whenever it had brought back enough features to make gnome 2 worth it, and why I'm still on mate because gnome 3 breaks my workflow).
Use what works for you. If some people are happy with one thing, then use it, and if that is a different thing than your thing, it's ok that someone else is doing their own thing. I hate this modern era of everybody trying to force everybody else to do it their way. That is one of the pillars of why I'm using Linux to begin with, and Gentoo on top of that (and if Gentoo wants to go down a path I disagree with, I'm prepared to fork that too). It's something that permeates our entire society today, with everyone trying to force their ideas on everyone else at every level of our existence.
Linux is freedom, lets keep it that way.
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flexibeast
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | I hate this modern era of everybody trying to force everybody else to do it their way. |
Which, i would say, also includes demanding that volunteer devs and/or maintainers continue to do work they don't want to (or can't, in terms of personal resources) continue doing.
Myself, i'd be very happy to see X continue to be supported, so that people who want to continue to use it, for whatever reason(s), can do so. But if Xorg devs who have been wrestling with X for years no longer wish to do so, then without an infusion of new enthusiastic volunteers, X will become increasingly difficult and resource-intensive to maintain and support - including by Gentoo's volunteer maintainers. In that context, i feel it's inappropriate to force maintainers to continue to support X despite them not necessarily being willing and able to do so. And anyone who thinks the work involved is no big deal can demonstrate this by volunteering as a dev and/or maintainer themselves.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | I hate this modern era of everybody trying to force everybody else to do it their way. |
Pretty much the same thing was said by horse and buggy whip manufacturers when the auto was introduced.
By the way where can I find a new car with point and condensers so that I can work on it, and a carburetor too?
Times change, things change. I'm happy not to have to use an 8086 pc, or dos 1.0 or windows 1/2, YMMV.
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pingtoo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: | ...
X will become increasingly difficult and resource-intensive to maintain and support - including by Gentoo's volunteer maintainers. In that context, i feel it's inappropriate to force maintainers to continue to support X despite them not necessarily being willing and able to do so. And anyone who thinks the work involved is no big deal can demonstrate this by volunteering as a dev and/or maintainer themselves. |
I support this idea totally. However current Gentoo (ebuilds?) does not able/support or going to a direction that allow future splitting X from Wayland. Should we follow the idea that we should not request/dictate the Gentoo developer do what they consider not worthy (for what every reason). Currently there is no way for A X version of KDE set of ebuilds and Wayland version of KDE set of ebuilds.
Any projects will become increasingly difficult to support if the project ran 10s of years, X is already like that, Wayland someday will be like that (if they can last that long).
As far as I can tell from Xorg server commit history changes are happen quick frequently. So X in my mind is far from lack of support.
I am not pro X or pro Wayland. I use both currently. I believe use the tool to get thing done. There is no one tool that must be kept. However I wish the freedom of choice always exist. I wish the day Gentoo decide drop X will never come. |
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flexibeast
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| pingtoo wrote: | | However current Gentoo (ebuilds?) does not able/support or going to a direction that allow future splitting X from Wayland. Should we follow the idea that we should not request/dictate the Gentoo developer do what they consider not worthy (for what every reason). |
i feel that 'requesting' and 'dictating' are very different - that there is a difference between asking and demanding, between saying "This would be useful to me, and I believe to others, can you please consider implementing and supporting it?" and saying "Myself and others are entitled to have you implement and support this; it's your obligation to do so, regardless of whether you're willing or able to."
Of course one can request, but too often a "No", including "because I don't have the capacity (either to implement it or support it in an ongoing way)" is met with anger and increasingly strident demand-based language, which in turn often seems to be based on entitlement.
i have a disabling chronic illness, which i've had for 25+ years and which shows no sign of going away, and i'm also trying to provide support to two family members with significant disabilities. If someone comes to me and says "Please implement and support [thing] in this package that you develop and maintain [e.g. Ebuku, or one of my mdoc(7) ports of s6-related documentation]", i take the request seriously, and will try to implement and support it if (a) i think it's a useful thing to do, and (b) i have the capacity to do so. But sometimes i can think something is a useful thing to do, yet assess that it will require more work than i'm able to provide. In that sort of situation, i'll typically say something along those lines, and add "patches / PRs welcome". But if someone expects me to do the work on their behalf, and demands that i do so - because they feel it's appropriate to force someone else to do volunteer work for them - that's a very different matter.
And further: if i've assessed that it's not a useful thing to do, for whatever reason, as the person responsible for having developed and maintained the code, and this person then starts attacking me for that assessment, rather than accepting it (and forking and doing the work themselves if they feel that strongly about it), that sort of bullying doesn't actually encourage me to change my mind - it just makes me think "Why provide people with my free labour if it's just going to result in having to deal with behaviour like this?" It discourages me, an actual person actually doing the work, from continuing to do the work.
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Last edited by flexibeast on Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pingtoo
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: | | pingtoo wrote: | | However current Gentoo (ebuilds?) does not able/support or going to a direction that allow future splitting X from Wayland. Should we follow the idea that we should not request/dictate the Gentoo developer do what they consider not worthy (for what every reason). |
i feel that 'requesting' and 'dictating' are very different - that there is a difference between asking and demanding, between saying "This would be useful to me, and I believe to others, can you please consider implementing and supporting it?" and saying "Myself and others are entitled to have you implement and support this; it's your obligation to do so, regardless of whether you're willing or able to."
Of course one can request, but too often a "No", including "because I don't have the capacity (either to implement it or support it in an ongoing way)" is met with anger and increasingly strident demand-based language, which in turn often seems to be based on entitlement.
i have a disabling chronic illness, which i've had for 25+ years and which shows no sign of going away, and i'm also trying to support two family members with significant disabilities. If someone comes to me and says "Please implement and support [thing] in this package that you develop and maintain [e.g. Ebuku, or one of my mdoc(7) ports of s6-related documentation]", i take the request seriously, and will try to implement and support it if (a) i think it's a useful thing to do, and (b) i have the capacity to do so. But sometimes i can think something is a useful thing to do, yet assess that it will require more work than i'm able to provide. In that sort of situation, i'll typically say something along those lines, and add "patches / PRs welcome". But if someone expects me to do the work on their behalf, and demands that i do so - because they feel it's appropriate to force someone else to do volunteer work for them - that's a very different matter.
And further: if i've assessed that it's not a useful thing to do, for whatever reason, as the person responsible for having developed and maintained the code, and this person then starts attacking me for that assessment, rather than accepting it (and forking and doing the work themselves if they feel that strongly about it), that sort of bullying doesn't actually encourage me to change my mind - it just makes me think "Why provide people with my free labour if it's just going to result in having to deal with behaviour like this?" It discourages me, an actual person actually doing the work, from continuing to do the work. |
Absolutely. I agree with you. your work is yours to decide, no other have right to demand.
Your words, kind explain my use of request/dictate, one more polite than the other, however at the end they express same desire/wanting.
What I posted in thread is to raise my vote to say it would be nice to have X (or having same existing X functionality) for Linux Desktop and wish Gentoo will not drop X before X itself decide to quite. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| pingtoo wrote: | | What I posted in thread is to raise my vote to say it would be nice to have X (or having same existing X functionality) for Linux Desktop and wish Gentoo will not drop X before X itself decide to quite. |
X will continue to be supported by gentoo and other distros, as long as it's not overly time consuming or complicated to keep it up to date.
Keeping it current and woirkable is the domain of Xorg consortium and developers.
If no new updates, many times bitrot will set in, especially in complex software like X.
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: |
[...] - it just makes me think "Why provide people with my free labour if it's just going to result in having to deal with behaviour like this?" It discourages me, an actual person actually doing the work, from continuing to do the work. |
That's certainly something I experience. It blows my mind that people complain about something I provide free-of-charge and support in my leisure time. And yet they do.
But...
There's a big red (well, blue now) elephant in the sitting room here. While I can maintain my simple utilities single-handedly, looking after something the scale of a display infrastructure takes an organization. And a small number of large organizations largely control the direction of Linux development these days.
Demanding of Joe Bloggs that he implements your new feature in his open-source laser-cannon controller is crass and insensitive. Can the same be said of making demands of Red Hat/ SuSE/Oracle/Canonical? I'm really not sure.
BR, Lars. |
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flexibeast
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | Demanding of Joe Bloggs that he implements your new feature in his open-source laser-cannon controller is crass and insensitive. Can the same be said of making demands of Red Hat/ SuSE/Oracle/Canonical? I'm really not sure. |
Well, there are a few things here.
To start with, given that we're on the Gentoo forums, it's critical that people understand that the majority of people contributing to Gentoo - and i'm including myself here, as someone who's regularly making contributions to the wiki - are volunteers. That is: we're not contributing to Gentoo as employees of a corporation / big business. (Although there certainly are people who are contributing as an employee of some business, whatever its size.)
Unlike Fedora/RHEL, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, etc., Gentoo is not a distro backed by a corporation; it's not a distro maintained for a corporation's interests.
This means that, if someone demands that one or more Gentoo maintainers support their preferred configuration - even if it goes against what the relevant upstream(s) are doing - then that demand is most likely to be being made of a volunteer, not a paid employee.
Now i don't know what percentage of contributors to Xorg and the Wayland ecosystem[a] are paid employees of the sort of corporations you mentioned; i'd certainly be interested to know. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that in both cases, 75% of commits come from such employees, perhaps implying that the move of dev resources from Xorg to Wayland is driven by for-profit considerations rather than end-user needs.
If that's the case, then demanding things of Gentoo volunteers is demanding that those volunteers, whose contributions to Gentoo are a sideshow to all the other things happening in their life, devote time and energy to going up against people who get paid to implement their employer's interests. Again: i think it's reasonable to ask that a Gentoo volunteer do that on other people's behalf, but i think it's absurdly entitled to demand that they do so.
But that's assuming that most contributions are being done by paid employees of corporations. Does anyone have any actual numbers in this regard?
Finally, i feel we need to consider the extent to which making demands of, and/or bullying, front-line employees of corporations is likely to produce any concrete positive results. i would suggest that, if a for-profit corporation has no legal obligation in this regard beyond its fiduciary obligations to its shareholders[b], bullying front-line employees is unlikely to result in anything useful beyond negatively impacting the mental health of those employees. How many devs and/or sysadmins don't have stories of telling management "this is a bad idea", and management going ahead and forcing the bad idea to be implemented anyway?
[a] Which i write here to emphasise, for people late to this thread and who aren't aware, that Wayland is not a server - there is no "Wayland server" that compositors are running on top of. Each Wayland compositor is, effectively, its own 'server'.
[b] Assuming the legal concept of `consideration', or something analogous, in the jurisdictions where people are making demands of corporations, what's the consideration involved in using a corporate-backed distro, that would mean there's an implied contract involving support obligations? If there's no consideration involved, to what extent do the consumer protection laws of a given jurisdiction oblige a corporation to continue to support a particular product they've supported in the past? What support obligations does a corporate-backed distro have if a user accepted some Terms and Conditions as part of installing a distro? What obligations does a corporation who back a given distro have to people who never installed, and have never run, that distro? E.g. if most contributions to, say, Xorg were being made by Red Hat employees, what support obligations does Red Hat have towards people who use X but have never used RedHat / Fedora / RHEL /whatever?
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: | | What obligations does a corporation who back a given distro have to people who never installed, and have never run, that distro? E.g. if most contributions to, say, Xorg were being made by Red Hat employees, what support obligations does Red Hat have towards people who use X but have never used RedHat / Fedora / RHEL /whatever? |
I suspect that there is no legal obligation at all. I'm fairly sure that's true in my jurisdiction, at least.
The extent to which these corporations have an ethical duty to contribute to the software which, after all, provides them with a way to do business, is something that won't easily be resolved. And, in a capitalist economy, it's hard to enforce an ethical obligation at all -- it's generally something we have to legislate for.
Beating on a corporation for (for example) not providing any support for X.org is unlikely to have much effect. On the other hand, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to do so, in the same way that it would be unreasonable to beat on a volunteer.
BR, Lars. |
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szatox
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | [b] Assuming the legal concept of `consideration', or something analogous, in the jurisdictions where people are making demands of corporations, what's the consideration involved in using a corporate-backed distro, that would mean there's an implied contract involving support obligations? |
Why legalese all of the sudden?
It's not about contracts, it's essentially politics.
Humans simply are pack animals by nature, some more, some less, but we all have circuits for influencing others and being influenced by others. Make enough fuss and people will change their minds. Yes, bitching is annoying, but it is low effort and works often enough to be expected to work, and if it doesn't, it was at least low effort. Some do that consciously, some do that because it's trendy, some just want to vent.
Working in any kind of organization, it doesn't matter whether you're an employee or a volunteer. You either fit in or you leave, otherwise the organization will never get anything done. It comes with the territory.
Obviously, if people leave, the organization will be starved of manpower and die, so driving people away over minor disagreements is not a good idea either. That's the power the individuals hold within the organization.
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | Make enough fuss and people will change their minds. Yes, bitching is annoying, but it is low effort and works often enough to be expected to work, and if it doesn't, it was at least low effort. Some do that consciously, some do that because it's trendy, some just want to vent.
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I think many people simply don't realize when they're dealing with folks who have some kind of obligation to them, and when they're not. There are many organizations that do have an obligation to me, and to whom bitching seems entirely reasonable. I include anything in that category that is funded by my taxes. There are probably others.
I don't think it's (necessarily) being trendy or wanting to vent; I honestly think people just don't understand the implications of their actions. At least, I hope that's the case, the alternatives being what they are.
BR, Lars. |
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