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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3455
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 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are many organizations that do have an obligation to me, and to whom bitching seems entirely reasonable. I include anything in that category that is funded by my taxes |
That's a good point, unfortunately, those organizations would rather spend your money on professional bitchers to create an illusion of a consensus putting you in the minority than actually do the job than is allegedly the reason for their existence.
In the end, that one point alone doesn't change much by just being good. Gotta go out to get enough points in line to keep the problems out of your yard.
| Quote: | | I don't think it's (necessarily) being trendy or wanting to vent; I honestly think people just don't understand the implications of their actions. |
Those were examples, not an exhaustive list. I think we're talking about different aspects of the same thing.
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flexibeast
Guru
Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 472
Location: Naarm/Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Why legalese all of the sudden? It's not about contracts, it's essentially politics. |
Because a lot of people whose behaviour indicates a sense of entitlement to others' time / energy / resources act as though there is some underlying contract which gives them a right to make such demands.
There are contracts involved in FOSS - licensing. As a developer, i release things under certain FOSS licenses, which creates a contract with users - i give users the right to do certain things they wouldn't otherwise legally be able to do, such as distribute copies of my software, and make changes to it and distribute the software with those changes.
The licenses also express limitations as to what rights users have, such as that my work comes with no warranty or guarantee of fitness for a particular purpose except to the extent required by local law. The licenses i use give my users no right to demand i support the software in whatever arbitrary ways they want.
Part of the reason FOSS licenses explicitly put limitations on what users are entitled to, via "no warranty" clauses, is that it would have a substantial chilling effect on people's willingness to release software publicly if people said "I used your calculator program for my engineering project, and the program didn't do the maths correctly, and the building collapsed, and now i'm suing you for gazillions because this is all your fault."
The point of my footnote was to say: "Point me to the places where people have entered into an agreement - a contract - which means they're entitled to demand time / energy / resources of various people."
And yes, people then say "Well there might not be any actual legal contract, but by releasing this software, you created an ethical contract which gives me the right to harangue you to meet my demands." Which can also have a chilling effect, as people get burned out by the haranguing. More on this below.
| szatox wrote: | | Humans simply are pack animals by nature, some more, some less, but we all have circuits for influencing others and being influenced by others. Make enough fuss and people will change their minds. Yes, bitching is annoying, but it is low effort and works often enough to be expected to work, and if it doesn't, it was at least low effort. Some do that consciously, some do that because it's trendy, some just want to vent. |
Sure. But people also need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions, which in this context includes devs and maintainers getting burned out - particularly when they're volunteers - and no longer able to do the work. Here's a few relevant posts:
* "The Internet Was Built on the Free Labor of Open Source Developers. Is That Sustainable?" -- https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-internet-was-built-on-the-free-labor-of-open-source-developers-is-that-sustainable/
* "Let’s talk about open source sustainability" -- https://github.blog/open-source/social-impact/lets-talk-about-open-source-sustainability/
* "It was no longer about discussing possible future features or hunting bugs, but about supporting users who are not able to use their brain and/or use google and/or read the arch wiki and/or read the readme of aurman." -- https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/9aotjr/deleted_by_user/
The cost of burnout due to constantly having to deal with entitlement and demands and haranguing isn't just to the individual devs and maintainers, it's a cost to pretty much everyone, including the people left to continue doing the work, because there are now fewer people to do the same amount of work.
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pingtoo
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1274
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Do we need to split again?  |
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