| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20498
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:20 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
My biggest disappointment was when I read that the UI was heavily influenced by the btrfs UI. That UI my biggest complaint about btrfs (with the presumption that it's data-loss issues would be resolved) and one of the main benefits of ZFS.
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jpsollie
Guru
Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Posts: 323
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pjp wrote: | | My biggest disappointment was when I read that the UI was heavily influenced by the btrfs UI. That UI my biggest complaint about btrfs (with the presumption that it's data-loss issues would be resolved) and one of the main benefits of ZFS. |
what do you mean with "UI"?
I'm a bcachefs contributor myself, and afaik, the CLI is completely different.
Nonetherless, what are your concerns?
_________________
The power of Gentoo optimization (not overclocked): [img]https://www.passmark.com/baselines/V10/images/503714802842.png[/img] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
From what I've read, I don't see any problems with bcachefs's UI.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20498
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jpsollie wrote: | | what do you mean with "UI"? |
Sorry I missed your post.
Just that... the user interface. How a user interacts with the tools.
I can't find the reference now on the website, but it may have been moved to a PDF (is there really no web version?).
Searching for btrfs in the user manual PDF leads to chapter 2.5 regarding subvolumes. It mentions "a similar userspace interface as btrfs."
That leads me to believe the interface would be similar to what I experienced with btrfs. I don't know if that's exactly what I had seen on the website, but it seems close enough.
To qualify my bias, I've used ZFS and it's interface seemed intuitive. btrfs seemed the opposite. My only use of btrfs was briefly about 10 years ago in a VM to see how it compared to ZFS regarding usability / interaction.
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6068
Location: Removed by Neddy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Moved from Unsupported Software to Gentoo Chat.
Some drama yet again.
One comment on the patreon page caught my eye: | brunoals wrote: | AGAIN?!?!?!
Didn't you calm down when you got the last drama? Why is it so hard to follow their rules? You are sending patches to the kernel THEY manage, so you have to follow THEIR rules. Be patient. Follow the release windows.
Now that you F up 3 times with your behavior, you need to be on your best behavior with them. You are digging your grave and you don't even see it. Take 1 year off from the kernel if you need then come back during a release window. You need to learn to swallow your ego otherwise someone else will swallow it themselves and multiply against you. Take a step back and reassess.
This is the last thin line before bcachefs may get rejected in the kernel because of how much disturbance you cause them regardless of whether you are right or not. Even if you are right in how the kernel should work, they manage it and you do not. Don't just go into someone else's house and define how they should be and manage their life in their own house. This is basically the same.
Calm yourself. The gun is already aiming at your foot and ready to shoot it. Don't shoot your own foot. |
There's a Phoronix article too.
*sigh*
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6068
Location: Removed by Neddy
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
yup this is not good. I was really looking forward to bcachefs ( I have it on /var/tmp as a testcase)
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0; |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I sure hope he listens to all his patreon members. Almost everyone tells him to calm down.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 240
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zucca wrote: | | I sure hope he listens to all his patreon members. Almost everyone tells him to calm down. |
They tell him that on Patreon, on LKML, on social media, in IRC...
But he is adamant that his "pushback" is because he believes something along the lines of (paraphrased) "kernel processes are broken and I'm just advocating for constructive change".
In IRC, I told him I think all his complaints about the kernel community are actually two-sided, and that "it's plainly obvious, at least to me, that a lot of kernel maintainers believe you are dismissive of them, their work, and their consensus process. They seem to feel that you believe bcachefs is so technically superior that nothing else anyone says matters... about *any* part of the kernel".
His response was to rant about how "i think that's mostly ted [Ts'o]'s character assassination" on LKML. After quite a few back and forths, I got him to admit "oh, it was off list, my bad". It is not clear to me what he now blames for the community atmosphere, if anything.
He also on IRC continues to defend his decision to sneak in a patch, by saying that "the maintainer is always right" is a huge problem and needs to be ceased, and I suppose that that means maintainers of a subsystem shouldn't be allowed to reject his patches. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I guess he's one of those very competent developers without proper communication skills.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6068
Location: Removed by Neddy
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The process is more than likely flawed BUT it isn't broken. The way to advocate the change isn't to make noise as he does (that then winds people up and then he crosses the line) its to show how it can be improved (While following the process...) to win people over...
but to send patches out right before the close is just outright rude... since how can anyone review it.
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0; |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2461
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah.
Got to love CoCC robotic replies: | Code: | -- Restrict Kent Overstreet's participation in the kernel development
process during the Linux 6.13 kernel development cycle.
- Scope: Decline all pull requests from Kent Overstreet during
the Linux 6.13 kernel development cycle.
|
But apparently he did apologize his writings to the guy he insulted, but in private. So the issue was supposed to be resolved, but there's a new rule which CoCC enforces - a public apology.
To my knowledge that was too much for Kent (and according to some, this new rule was established afterwards).
I see some flaws with the CoCC process but that doesn't make Kent any less jerk he's been.
I'm tempted to put up a poll: "Will he learn?". -_-
If bcachefs was to be spat out of Linux, I bet Kent would try to merge it back after some time and fixes.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 240
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zucca wrote: |
But apparently he did apologize his writings to the guy he insulted, but in private. So the issue was supposed to be resolved, but there's a new rule which CoCC enforces - a public apology.
To my knowledge that was too much for Kent (and according to some, this new rule was established afterwards). |
I haven't seen mention of the rule being established afterwards. The "rule" in question isn't establishing a rule, according to the approved text that everyone who isn't involved with Kent's issues agreed on. It is documented and described as: "Currently we don't say what enforcement looks like, but in the interest of clarity and transparency, we are formalizing in the documentation that this is what we will do".
So that's not really an argument towards the code of conduct being unfair.
Anyways, Kent never said he apologized to the guy he insulted, as far as I know. He said that he "more or less worked this out privately" without really stating what that means, and then spent all his time since then arguing back and forth about... so many things that he thinks everyone else is doing wrong.
My suspicion is that he did apologize, but it was the kind of apology that comes with a nod and a wink and basically says "I don't think anything was really wrong about saying it, but look, we're both mature adult males and we can put this behind us, right?"
I'm not entirely sure the code of conduct process is wrong here. That being said, I agree with you that either way Kent is being a jerk. 
It's not looking promising for him to learn. That being said, I suspect bcachefs will stay in while the recommended way to actually use it will end up becoming "use the out of tree version that gets developed in a timely manner". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3751
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| eschwartz wrote: | | Anyways, Kent never said he apologized to the guy he insulted, as far as I know. He said that he "more or less worked this out privately" without really stating what that means, and then spent all his time since then arguing back and forth about... so many things that he thinks everyone else is doing wrong. |
Ok. I've just been reading and/or watching short compacted versions (because I assume those conversations on the mailing lists are pretty long) of what has been going on, so the accuracy of facts seems to have dropped along the way.
Oh well... I hope things get sorted out to the 6.14 release, but I surely don't count on that hope.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Gentoo Chat
