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szatox
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 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2024 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are many organizations that do have an obligation to me, and to whom bitching seems entirely reasonable. I include anything in that category that is funded by my taxes |
That's a good point, unfortunately, those organizations would rather spend your money on professional bitchers to create an illusion of a consensus putting you in the minority than actually do the job than is allegedly the reason for their existence.
In the end, that one point alone doesn't change much by just being good. Gotta go out to get enough points in line to keep the problems out of your yard.
| Quote: | | I don't think it's (necessarily) being trendy or wanting to vent; I honestly think people just don't understand the implications of their actions. |
Those were examples, not an exhaustive list. I think we're talking about different aspects of the same thing.
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flexibeast
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Why legalese all of the sudden? It's not about contracts, it's essentially politics. |
Because a lot of people whose behaviour indicates a sense of entitlement to others' time / energy / resources act as though there is some underlying contract which gives them a right to make such demands.
There are contracts involved in FOSS - licensing. As a developer, i release things under certain FOSS licenses, which creates a contract with users - i give users the right to do certain things they wouldn't otherwise legally be able to do, such as distribute copies of my software, and make changes to it and distribute the software with those changes.
The licenses also express limitations as to what rights users have, such as that my work comes with no warranty or guarantee of fitness for a particular purpose except to the extent required by local law. The licenses i use give my users no right to demand i support the software in whatever arbitrary ways they want.
Part of the reason FOSS licenses explicitly put limitations on what users are entitled to, via "no warranty" clauses, is that it would have a substantial chilling effect on people's willingness to release software publicly if people said "I used your calculator program for my engineering project, and the program didn't do the maths correctly, and the building collapsed, and now i'm suing you for gazillions because this is all your fault."
The point of my footnote was to say: "Point me to the places where people have entered into an agreement - a contract - which means they're entitled to demand time / energy / resources of various people."
And yes, people then say "Well there might not be any actual legal contract, but by releasing this software, you created an ethical contract which gives me the right to harangue you to meet my demands." Which can also have a chilling effect, as people get burned out by the haranguing. More on this below.
| szatox wrote: | | Humans simply are pack animals by nature, some more, some less, but we all have circuits for influencing others and being influenced by others. Make enough fuss and people will change their minds. Yes, bitching is annoying, but it is low effort and works often enough to be expected to work, and if it doesn't, it was at least low effort. Some do that consciously, some do that because it's trendy, some just want to vent. |
Sure. But people also need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions, which in this context includes devs and maintainers getting burned out - particularly when they're volunteers - and no longer able to do the work. Here's a few relevant posts:
* "The Internet Was Built on the Free Labor of Open Source Developers. Is That Sustainable?" -- https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-internet-was-built-on-the-free-labor-of-open-source-developers-is-that-sustainable/
* "Let’s talk about open source sustainability" -- https://github.blog/open-source/social-impact/lets-talk-about-open-source-sustainability/
* "It was no longer about discussing possible future features or hunting bugs, but about supporting users who are not able to use their brain and/or use google and/or read the arch wiki and/or read the readme of aurman." -- https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/9aotjr/deleted_by_user/
The cost of burnout due to constantly having to deal with entitlement and demands and haranguing isn't just to the individual devs and maintainers, it's a cost to pretty much everyone, including the people left to continue doing the work, because there are now fewer people to do the same amount of work.
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pingtoo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Do we need to split again?  |
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| flexibeast wrote: | | [And yes, people then say "Well there might not be any actual legal contract, but by releasing this software, you created an ethical contract which gives me the right to harangue you to meet my demands." Which can also have a chilling effect, as people get burned out by the haranguing. |
Off-topic, perhaps, but I think about this a lot, and I don't really know what I believe.
I contribute to 100+ open-source projects, some professionally and some personally. I certainly do feel a sense of obligation to fix things that are broken, although I can't say where that obligation comes from. Perhaps it's just professional pride -- I don't like to be associated with crappy work. Or perhaps I have, in some way, assumed a duty of care to people that use my software? I wouldn't have made this software available free of charge, if I didn't expect people to use it. In some sense I must want people to use it, or be gratified when they do. There must be something in it for me, although I couldn't articulate what it is. Does that create some kind of reciprocal obligation on me?
I use a lot of open-source software, again both professionally and personally. I confess that I have occasionally found myself thinking: why did you publish this crap, if it doesn't work, and you don't care? Is that wicked of me? Perhaps it is; I really don't know. I wouldn't be so crude as to beat on somebody for not maintaining software that he is supporting in his leisure time; but I confess to a sense of disappointment when it happens. Should I? Does that amount to looking a gift horse in the mouth?
I'm not a moral philosopher, and I'm not even able to express clearly what my concerns are. But the ethical issues associated with open-source software do trouble me.
BR, Lars. |
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szatox
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | In some sense I must want people to use it, or be gratified when they do. There must be something in it for me, although I couldn't articulate what it is. Does that create some kind of reciprocal obligation on me? |
This is not an obligation, but it certainly is a motivation.
Creating something the way you want it makes it personal, so even if the thing you contribute to is utilitarian in nature, I'd say doing things up to your own standards doubles as a form of self-expression, which pushes it into the realm of art.
I've been thinking about various things too 
| flexibeast wrote: | The point of my footnote was to say: "Point me to the places where people have entered into an agreement - a contract - which means they're entitled to demand time / energy / resources of various people." [...]
Sure. But people also need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions, which in this context includes devs and maintainers getting burned out - particularly when they're volunteers - and no longer able to do the work. Here's a few relevant posts: |
Two different things: Dealing with complaints and demands certainly is frustrating. Not everyone wants to or can do customer-service jobs. Frustration is unpleasant, and does affect quality of life etc, but it easily goes away if you can just get a quick mental reset by doing something you actually enjoy.
Burnout is said to mostly affect people working on their passion. The more dedicated to the thing you're doing you are, the harder it will eventually hit, and once it's there, you need a change of course, because recovery takes a few years and is not guaranteed.
So, back to your point:
There is no contract and people are not entitled to your time / energy and so on. You don't have to give them what they want. Likewise, you're not entitled to the world playing nice with you either, whether you lead or follow.
You can say that people criticizing and making demands are annoying, but nothing good will come up from telling them to stop. People yell to be heard. If you tell them to shut up, you'll only hear those who ignored you. You'll be left with only the most annoying ones, whom in particular you wanted to get rid of. THIS is inherently unsustainable, because those rules directly benefit those who break them and punish those, who do try to play nice until they change sides or drop out completely. I've been watching this exact scenario play out over past 2 decades in a different area of life I shall not name right now.
What do you do about the complaints and demands you receive is up to you. You can suffer from them, you can frame them with objective metrics, you can have a friend filer them for you, or just ignore completely (e.g. by not providing a public feedback channel in the first place). Giving them a finger is an option too, but if you make a scene, trolls will happily join your cast.
You might feel it's unfair (and honestly I do sympathize with this sentiment), but practicing stoicism yourself is doable and makes you mentally and emotionally stronger and more resilient, while trying to control the things other people say is doomed to fail and also trains you to perceive pixels on the screen as an existential threat.
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eschwartz
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I would say that in many cases there is a kind of ethical social obligation to... not listen to every user's demands, but to either have the project be in some opaquely defined state of "good shape" or else hand over the project maintenance to someone who will. You see this a lot with the way many projects prefer to be developed by "an organization" with "a lead developer" rather than be a one-person show on a private website.
By publishing software, you freely invite people to use it or not use it as they please, and refrain from complaining about it -- after all, no warranties!  But by *campaigning* to have your software used by others, you make a (non-legally-binding) statement "hey, I'm a reliable person who cares about making this project useful to others. I'm going to stick around! I'm going to respect my users! I'm going to do my best to make this a great project!"
In some cases, there's a considerably stronger guarantee. For example, software that comes from an organization that takes (usually tax-deductible) donations for administration, or pays people for their time working on the project (even if it isn't a full time job, just a hobby bonus).
In some particular examples, you have e.g. GCC, binutils, glibc, the GNOME foundation, the linux kernel... and people are paid full time salaries by major corporations to work on those projects in the interests of that corporation, which often entails becoming (or getting hired because you are already) a domain expert, and ending up with a seat on some kind of board or steering committee. In a very real sense, e.g. Red Hat Enterprise Linux is paying their employees to have, as their day job, "be an expert at the GNU Toolchain and gain the trust of the FOSS community". I would flip out and have some rather pointed demands if for some reason I thought that those developers were turning the compiler into a personal toy for RHEL experiments to the detriment of my own and the broader world of FOSS use cases. (I don't feel that this has ever been a real concern, however.)
But I wouldn't demand specific features from any maintainer of any project -- even if I demand that they engage in good faith to make the project better "for its users", and even if I demand that they not abandon the project.
This state of affairs works out pretty well, for the most part, anyway.
The relationship to Xorg vs Wayland is interesting, because both are indeed large projects that represent industry-wide standards for operating a graphical user interface, with various stakeholders from both FOSS hobbyists and corporate interests, and there are people whose dayjob is (at least in part) to maintain both projects. Do I have a right to insist that RHEL employees improve Xorg on my behalf? I don't think so. But I feel a bit like I do have the right to demand that they keep Xorg in maintenance mode for as long as Wayland isn't a full replacement, that they review in good faith and accept well written patches by the community that advance the goals of Xorg (including adding new features, if the community is inspired to design such things, without rejecting it by saying "no, we don't want Xorg to get better")...
... or that they turn over the project to people who are willing to do that, if that's what ends up being better for Xorg.
I think they are doing their duties admirably, either way. Their arguments in favor of Wayland as a replacement to Xorg are founded in good faith personal belief that Wayland is a better future. They haven't abandoned Xorg, only put it into maintenance mode. There aren't really any exciting new Xorg features, but that's because nobody is offering any. And they are committed to ensuring Xorg remains as usable as it has been up until now, "until future notice".
I'm sure they want to abandon Xorg entirely, and it's likely that someday they will be able to say in good faith "we believe Wayland now solves all use cases from Xorg, there is no reason for anyone to want Xorg anymore", although I doubt that day will come in the next decade given the continuing quirks that make people prefer Xorg.
I *still* expect some people to be very unhappy about Xorg going away, and insisting on continuing to use it, and I think the ethical choice is that the project should hand over the reins to the remaining Xorg enthusiasts and say "go wild, knock yourself out. Enjoy your Xorg, its all your responsibility now". |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Even if distros quit packaging Xorg*, I'm pretty sure the source code will be around for quite a while.
Grab a copy and work on it, or keep it as is and you can still be using X in 2050 (whether the hardware of the time will allow it, is a different matter)
I find that for many people it's not that wayland won't work instead of X,
it's that they're too set in their ways, to want to learn to do things in a (possibly) different way.
But I've heard the same whining when gtk2 went away, then kde3, then kde4, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| pingtoo wrote: | | Do we need to split again? :D |
I considered one related to the discussion about behavior, but I mainly wanted to get it out of the wayland thread. If there's a clear separation, I may try to do that later.
EDIT: I looked, it's too interwoven at this point. It's also a relatively "dead" topic that will either naturally end or devolve into something else.
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Last edited by pjp on Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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flexibeast
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:05 am Post subject: |
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@szatox:
i found your response very patronising. You don't know what i've been through, and what i'm going through. (Though my comment in an earlier post in this discussion, "i have a disabling chronic illness, which i've had for 25+ years and which shows no sign of going away, and i'm also trying to provide support to two family members with significant disabilities", should perhaps have clued you in a bit.) You have no idea how resilient i've had to be to in order to be here today, and that i've had a psychologist comment on just how resilient i've been.
What's the metamessage communicated when people are seemingly more willing to write long posts telling people to be more stoic and resilient than they are to write a short comment to people haranguing and bullying volunteers, saying "Hey, that's inappropriate. Please treat volunteers with respect"? Even trying to create a generally - not perfectly! - supportive culture for volunteers is apparently impossible, but it's fine to lecture volunteers on being more stoic and resilient? What's the metamessage communicated to those doing the bullying and haranguing? "What you're doing won't be challenged, carry on; the targets of your behaviours will be told they need to harden the f*** up."
If the threshold for contributing to FOSS is "You must be this stoic and resilient to be part of this ride", and that it's okay for volunteers who are insufficiently stoic and resilient to be driven away, because their contributions are not valuable enough to even try to counter haranguing and bullying that's taking a psychological toll on them, and despite - based on my decades of experience with FOSS - such bullies often not actually doing any volunteer work themselves .... Well, i feel that says a lot.
i have indeed left communities to which i was making substantial contributions because i could no longer continue to handle the problematic attitudes and behaviours, because people would rather lose my contributions than to stand up to bullies.
i feel i've made my core points. If people continue to nevertheless feel that the onus is on the bullied to change their attitudes and behaviours, rather than on the bullies, i don't know what more to say. i won't be contributing further to this sub-thread; others can have the last word.
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szatox
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i found your response very patronising. You don't know what i've been through, and what i'm going through |
I'll spell it out for you: I don't know and I don't care, just like 8 billions other people currently alive on this planet. Everyone has some problems people literally die every day and nobody bats and eye. We're not enough of friends for this to be my problem to solve.
I simply find the common message pushed very hard through various media, both legacy and social networks, telling people to expect consideration of their feelings from the outside world very harmful on multiple levels.
Do with it whatever you want.
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eschwartz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | i found your response very patronising. You don't know what i've been through, and what i'm going through |
I'll spell it out for you: I don't know and I don't care, just like 8 billions other people currently alive on this planet. Everyone has some problems people literally die every day and nobody bats and eye. We're not enough of friends for this to be my problem to solve.
I simply find the common message pushed very hard through various media, both legacy and social networks, telling people to expect consideration of their feelings from the outside world very harmful on multiple levels.
Do with it whatever you want. |
It seems like you're a good example of the reason why "everyone has some problems" -- and also the reason why so many people ask for consideration of their feelings.
I don't particularly see how it's morally defensible to prove your point that "there are people on the internet who will be rude and nasty to you if you have interactions with them, and you will end up feeling hurt by having interactions with them unless you have a thick skin"... by being rude and nasty to people.
I mean, I don't even get what point you're trying to make. flexibeast pointed out that the end result of such interactions is the people who feel hurt deciding that it's a better and more constructive use of their time to go, I don't know, be an alpaca farmer or something rather than deal with rude and nasty people on the internet. You're reprimanding in return, that the world is full of rude and nasty people and going off to be an alpaca farmer doesn't reduce the number of rude and nasty people? Therefore what? flexibeast is required to give up on the lifelong aspiration to peacefully raise alpacas because alpaca farmers are losers who don't know how to be emotionally strong?
This seems all very much like "unfortunately I believe the situation is hopeless, people simply cannot learn to be nice. Therefore I will get extremely mad at anyone who suggests the situation is not hopeless, because it offends me that they'd expect something different from reality".
What's the goal here? |
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pingtoo
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:58 am Post subject: |
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For the past posts between szatox and flexibeast and others that responded to them.
I must said I am side with szatox.
I found szatox have gave good advise for dealing with things one perceive as bully. I use "perceive as bully" because on internet is mixed culture. Because it is after fact there is no way we can understand the context. But I accept that a bully did happen and therefor given out sympathy is not the right answer.
I think respond from flexibeast is also not being consider. When szatox is not trying patronising but only suggest how to deal with one's feeling when being upset by others. I believe szatox intention are good.
Although later szatox respond is not necessary being polite but I think being blunt is good in this case. flexibeast post have large degree of self-pity in it. and for my experience there is no better way to tell one with self-pity than being blunt. Other wise one will be draw into a flow going nowhere.
Don't get me wrong I am not condoning bully. but there is no help after fact that said "yeah bro, I hear you and I feel the pain, i am sorry for what happen". we can only give advise for how to deal when it happen again. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | i found your response very patronising. You don't know what i've been through, and what i'm going through |
I'll spell it out for you: I don't know and I don't care, just like 8 billions other people currently alive on this planet. Everyone has some problems people literally die every day and nobody bats and eye. We're not enough of friends for this to be my problem to solve.
I simply find the common message pushed very hard through various media, both legacy and social networks, telling people to expect consideration of their feelings from the outside world very harmful on multiple levels.
Do with it whatever you want. |
It seems natural, healthy and possibly necessary to moderate emotional investment across the entire population of the planet as compared with family and close friends. That said, it seems odd to put everyone into only one of those two groups. Maybe, for example, there are people in a group who participate in a common hobby. It would seem that at least some number of that community would fit closer to the "family and friends" end of the scale than the "everyone else on the planet" end.
If that isn't meaningful, then I'll be more specific. Gentoo is a community and there are published expectations of participation in that community. No, you don't have to care about anyone in the community. Not in the least bit. However, you are expected to not be disrespectful.
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
I find that for many people it's not that wayland won't work instead of X,
it's that they're too set in their ways, to want to learn to do things in a (possibly) different way.
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I'm not sure that the Wayland/X thing comes down to learning to work in different ways. I suspect that for most end-users, they won't be able to tell the difference, so long as everything works. I have X.org and Wayland set up on the computer I'm using right now, and I honestly couldn't tell which one I'm using, unless I go check. The key, of course, is, "so long as everything works". If a big black box appears in the middle of the screen while I'm typing this, I'll know I was running a Wayland session 
I don't have any principled objection to Wayland. To be honest, I don't like its "desktop" focus, and I really don't see how it's going to work in embedded and industrial applications. But, so long as it works, I don't care whether I use it or not. My concern is that it doesn't work on some of the hardware I use, and I suspect it never will.
I confess that I'm not very keen on change, but I don't think that's my main reason for concern with Wayland.
BR, Lars |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Lars, I tried to carefully choose my words, thus I used "many" instead of "most" or "all".
I agree that if one was placed in front of a working wayland session and X11 session, they wouldn't easily tell the difference.
As to whether things work wayland vs x11, sometimes it's having to search for a replacement
and then (possibly) having to learn a different way of doing what they are used to doing.
Example: I have a few games that run well under windows 7, but 2 servers ago, things like w7 drivers quit being made by manufacturers,
in other words I couldn't put w7 on the bare metal. So I put together a qemu vm for w7 with gpu passthrough, so it works.
Is it the way I originally used w7? Nope. Did I have to learn to do it a different way? Yes.
What was involved? Learning, looking at things in a different way, experimenting, etc.
With my modernish car, I've given up on working on it except for minor matters such as maintenance.
Life is change, like it or not.
Y'all have fun, be good to each other.
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Lars, I tried to carefully choose my words, thus I used "many" instead of "most" or "all".
[...]
As to whether things work wayland vs x11, sometimes it's having to search for a replacement and then (possibly) having to learn a different way of doing what they are used to doing.
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Fair point. But some problems, I suspect, will be close to intractable. Before I can use Wayland in my embedded projects, I'll need as a minimum a single-window kiosk-mode compositor that runs on ARM. So 'learning a different way of doing things' might amount to writing a new compositor. Or porting Matchbox to Wayland. And that's before even starting to think about application-level changes.I don't feel equal to any of those tasks, frankly. I don't see anybody else taking them on, either -- but perhaps that's because there's no pressing need to, just now. After all, X.org isn't disappearing. But if it's no longer maintained, then continuing to use it might hold other system components at earlier versions -- I really don't know. I continue to use X.org where Wayland doesn't work, and it's not a problem (yet).
I only mention this specific example because it's one that affects me, so I know about it. I suspect -- but don't know for sure -- that there will be other Linux applications where Wayland won't work. At least, where it won't work without a lot of development effort. Linux is a broad church, and I suspect that few people know all the different ways in which it is being used. I'm sure I don't.
Your post did give me the impression that you felt that the primary reason for resistance to Wayland was a general unwillingness to do things differently. Perhaps that's just the way I read it, of course. In any case, I haven't conducted a survey, so I can only speak for myself.
BR, Lars. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Lars, I don't consider it primary, just one of the reasons.
As far as kiosk, a few wayland compositors specialize in that, and barring that, most that have implemented full screen mode are very kiosk like.
As far as applications, yeah, a learning curve on that.
I've written old X apps that used Xmotif and Xaw, and it's certainly different than writing for wayland, which I'm still in the process of learning.
Depending on how much an app uses "graphics", porting to wayland ranges from easy to complex.
No, X will not go away, not for a long time.
As to whether DE's prefer wayland over X or will offer both, that's up to the owners/devs of said DE.
One doesn't need a DE in wayland any more than they do in X.
Edit to add: An interesting link that I use a lot when looking for apps, etc in wayland https://github.com/rcalixte/awesome-wayland
From the README: A curated list of Wayland resources. Please investigate these projects on your own before fully committing to them!
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lars_the_bear
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
As far as kiosk, a few wayland compositors specialize in that, and barring that, most that have implemented full screen mode are very kiosk like.
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Off-topic, I know, but I'd be interested to know of any Wayland compositor that supports a true kiosk mode and has a memory footprint and start-up time comparable to Matchbox. I guess Cage was a possibility but, so far as I can see, it hasn't been updated for two years. All the others seem pretty hefty for an environment with 2Gb RAM.
BR, Lars. |
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Anon-E-moose
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retera
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi guys. I'm on a train about to get off and I read this X vs Wayland stuff while on my phone on the train.
My phone is running Wayland Phosh because I never bothered to install anything else. This is an NXP iMX8 Quad chip that runs arm ("Liberty Phone" by Purism).
So I'm stuck on Wayland because it's not gentoo and not a piecemeal package manager, and I didn't try to compile stuff myself on here.
But when I use X on my laptop, I noticed that if I want to screen record whatever I'm doing with a touch of a button it works. On Wayland, for some reason, it's harder for an app to blanket record whatever I do, apparently in the name of "security," but then I can't make videos and share.
So when we think about demands and decisions, am I a lamo for using Wayland on my phone because its the only thing I bothered to download and is default, and X on my PCs because it allows full on screen record, and thus easy sharing of my digital experience to others?
I do not use enough gentoo in my life, so I apologize if I am perceived as a troll. If I used it more, that would be OK.
Sent from my Librem 5. |
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