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pjp
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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My biggest disappointment was when I read that the UI was heavily influenced by the btrfs UI. That UI my biggest complaint about btrfs (with the presumption that it's data-loss issues would be resolved) and one of the main benefits of ZFS.
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jpsollie
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | My biggest disappointment was when I read that the UI was heavily influenced by the btrfs UI. That UI my biggest complaint about btrfs (with the presumption that it's data-loss issues would be resolved) and one of the main benefits of ZFS. |
what do you mean with "UI"?
I'm a bcachefs contributor myself, and afaik, the CLI is completely different.
Nonetherless, what are your concerns?
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Zucca
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:13 am Post subject: |
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From what I've read, I don't see any problems with bcachefs's UI.
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| jpsollie wrote: | | what do you mean with "UI"? |
Sorry I missed your post.
Just that... the user interface. How a user interacts with the tools.
I can't find the reference now on the website, but it may have been moved to a PDF (is there really no web version?).
Searching for btrfs in the user manual PDF leads to chapter 2.5 regarding subvolumes. It mentions "a similar userspace interface as btrfs."
That leads me to believe the interface would be similar to what I experienced with btrfs. I don't know if that's exactly what I had seen on the website, but it seems close enough.
To qualify my bias, I've used ZFS and it's interface seemed intuitive. btrfs seemed the opposite. My only use of btrfs was briefly about 10 years ago in a VM to see how it compared to ZFS regarding usability / interaction.
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Naib
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Zucca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Moved from Unsupported Software to Gentoo Chat.
Some drama yet again.
One comment on the patreon page caught my eye: | brunoals wrote: | AGAIN?!?!?!
Didn't you calm down when you got the last drama? Why is it so hard to follow their rules? You are sending patches to the kernel THEY manage, so you have to follow THEIR rules. Be patient. Follow the release windows.
Now that you F up 3 times with your behavior, you need to be on your best behavior with them. You are digging your grave and you don't even see it. Take 1 year off from the kernel if you need then come back during a release window. You need to learn to swallow your ego otherwise someone else will swallow it themselves and multiply against you. Take a step back and reassess.
This is the last thin line before bcachefs may get rejected in the kernel because of how much disturbance you cause them regardless of whether you are right or not. Even if you are right in how the kernel should work, they manage it and you do not. Don't just go into someone else's house and define how they should be and manage their life in their own house. This is basically the same.
Calm yourself. The gun is already aiming at your foot and ready to shoot it. Don't shoot your own foot. |
There's a Phoronix article too.
*sigh*
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Naib
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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yup this is not good. I was really looking forward to bcachefs ( I have it on /var/tmp as a testcase)
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Zucca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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I sure hope he listens to all his patreon members. Almost everyone tells him to calm down.
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eschwartz
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | I sure hope he listens to all his patreon members. Almost everyone tells him to calm down. |
They tell him that on Patreon, on LKML, on social media, in IRC...
But he is adamant that his "pushback" is because he believes something along the lines of (paraphrased) "kernel processes are broken and I'm just advocating for constructive change".
In IRC, I told him I think all his complaints about the kernel community are actually two-sided, and that "it's plainly obvious, at least to me, that a lot of kernel maintainers believe you are dismissive of them, their work, and their consensus process. They seem to feel that you believe bcachefs is so technically superior that nothing else anyone says matters... about *any* part of the kernel".
His response was to rant about how "i think that's mostly ted [Ts'o]'s character assassination" on LKML. After quite a few back and forths, I got him to admit "oh, it was off list, my bad". It is not clear to me what he now blames for the community atmosphere, if anything.
He also on IRC continues to defend his decision to sneak in a patch, by saying that "the maintainer is always right" is a huge problem and needs to be ceased, and I suppose that that means maintainers of a subsystem shouldn't be allowed to reject his patches. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I guess he's one of those very competent developers without proper communication skills.
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Naib
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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The process is more than likely flawed BUT it isn't broken. The way to advocate the change isn't to make noise as he does (that then winds people up and then he crosses the line) its to show how it can be improved (While following the process...) to win people over...
but to send patches out right before the close is just outright rude... since how can anyone review it.
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logrusx
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Zucca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Yeah.
Got to love CoCC robotic replies: | Code: | -- Restrict Kent Overstreet's participation in the kernel development
process during the Linux 6.13 kernel development cycle.
- Scope: Decline all pull requests from Kent Overstreet during
the Linux 6.13 kernel development cycle.
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But apparently he did apologize his writings to the guy he insulted, but in private. So the issue was supposed to be resolved, but there's a new rule which CoCC enforces - a public apology.
To my knowledge that was too much for Kent (and according to some, this new rule was established afterwards).
I see some flaws with the CoCC process but that doesn't make Kent any less jerk he's been.
I'm tempted to put up a poll: "Will he learn?". -_-
If bcachefs was to be spat out of Linux, I bet Kent would try to merge it back after some time and fixes.
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eschwartz
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: |
But apparently he did apologize his writings to the guy he insulted, but in private. So the issue was supposed to be resolved, but there's a new rule which CoCC enforces - a public apology.
To my knowledge that was too much for Kent (and according to some, this new rule was established afterwards). |
I haven't seen mention of the rule being established afterwards. The "rule" in question isn't establishing a rule, according to the approved text that everyone who isn't involved with Kent's issues agreed on. It is documented and described as: "Currently we don't say what enforcement looks like, but in the interest of clarity and transparency, we are formalizing in the documentation that this is what we will do".
So that's not really an argument towards the code of conduct being unfair.
Anyways, Kent never said he apologized to the guy he insulted, as far as I know. He said that he "more or less worked this out privately" without really stating what that means, and then spent all his time since then arguing back and forth about... so many things that he thinks everyone else is doing wrong.
My suspicion is that he did apologize, but it was the kind of apology that comes with a nod and a wink and basically says "I don't think anything was really wrong about saying it, but look, we're both mature adult males and we can put this behind us, right?"
I'm not entirely sure the code of conduct process is wrong here. That being said, I agree with you that either way Kent is being a jerk. 
It's not looking promising for him to learn. That being said, I suspect bcachefs will stay in while the recommended way to actually use it will end up becoming "use the out of tree version that gets developed in a timely manner". |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: | | Anyways, Kent never said he apologized to the guy he insulted, as far as I know. He said that he "more or less worked this out privately" without really stating what that means, and then spent all his time since then arguing back and forth about... so many things that he thinks everyone else is doing wrong. |
Ok. I've just been reading and/or watching short compacted versions (because I assume those conversations on the mailing lists are pretty long) of what has been going on, so the accuracy of facts seems to have dropped along the way.
Oh well... I hope things get sorted out to the 6.14 release, but I surely don't count on that hope.
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logrusx
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | that was too much for Kent |
How much of a Kent is too much for the rest of the world?
If you don't want to follow the mail list, here's a video that shows enough of his misconduct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07XjCGQpwpw
Just let me remind you we had a somewhat similar case not long ago.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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Naib
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: | | Zucca wrote: |
But apparently he did apologize his writings to the guy he insulted, but in private. So the issue was supposed to be resolved, but there's a new rule which CoCC enforces - a public apology.
To my knowledge that was too much for Kent (and according to some, this new rule was established afterwards). |
I haven't seen mention of the rule being established afterwards. The "rule" in question isn't establishing a rule, according to the approved text that everyone who isn't involved with Kent's issues agreed on. It is documented and described as: "Currently we don't say what enforcement looks like, but in the interest of clarity and transparency, we are formalizing in the documentation that this is what we will do".
So that's not really an argument towards the code of conduct being unfair.
Anyways, Kent never said he apologized to the guy he insulted, as far as I know. He said that he "more or less worked this out privately" without really stating what that means, and then spent all his time since then arguing back and forth about... so many things that he thinks everyone else is doing wrong.
My suspicion is that he did apologize, but it was the kind of apology that comes with a nod and a wink and basically says "I don't think anything was really wrong about saying it, but look, we're both mature adult males and we can put this behind us, right?"
I'm not entirely sure the code of conduct process is wrong here. That being said, I agree with you that either way Kent is being a jerk.
It's not looking promising for him to learn. That being said, I suspect bcachefs will stay in while the recommended way to actually use it will end up becoming "use the out of tree version that gets developed in a timely manner". |
closest there is
https://lore.kernel.org/all/o5tbrrk4r3sxtvk7tjyua5h2qaa3fos7446dkxbjyxjwhp4odd@we5elwaeb7dv/
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logrusx
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| Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2024 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Not even close. Kent doing what Kent does. Making things from worst to terrible. This guy is utterly and completely unaware of his act. He's going to get himself banned from the mail list too.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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Atha
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | yup this is not good. I was really looking forward to bcachefs ( I have it on /var/tmp as a testcase) |
I've had my /var mounted as a separate partition (actually a LVM logical volume) and used bcachefs since it got merged into 6.7. Yesterday I removed it and replaced it with xfs.
One thing I noticed was that shutting down my desktop (Plasma, systemd) always took time, sometimes a lot of time (like: up to a minute or even two). Only occasionally the shutdown was fast, so this really was the exception.
Now, with xfs, shutdown is almost instant, takes something like 5 seconds. And this is the only change I made to my system, kernel 6.12.5: I added xfs to the kernel (not as a module), and removed bcachefs (which was also in the kernel, not as a module).
Another thing I noticed: everytime I upgraded the major kernel version, say, from 6.7.x to 6.8.x, I would see a couple of kernel exception messages during boot, all bcachefs related. I would also see those exceptions regularly on shutdown, this time not related to a kernel upgrade. Since my system isn't set up properly to save those messages (I disabled efivar NVRAM for this purpose) I never reported those errors, and I figured that this newly developed filesystem may find other, more qualified reporters to do that. I know, not very knightly... 
I never had any corruption on the filesystem. Also, for its purpose, I didn't see any performance issues... But I did not test its performance or for any corruption!
About this discussion I can only say: If a developer shouts at his fellow developer colleagues that they are idiots, and effectively scares away anyone trying to contribute – AFAIK Kent Overstreet is still the sole developer of bcachefs – even I understand that the quality of a stable filesystem doesn't seem to be his main concern... Which even Linus Torvalds mentioned (as can be verified e.g. on phoronix.com):
| Quote: | | I was hoping and expecting that bcachefs being mainlined would actually help development. It has not. You're still basically the only developer, there's no real sign that that will change, and you seem to feel like sending me untested stuff that nobody else has ever seen the day before the next rc release is just fine. |
So, for me switching from testing bcachefs to now testing xfs is basically a decision based on those events: a) my personal experience and b) the fact that Torvalds suspended Overstreet at least for the 6.13 cycle, i.e. no pull requests will end up in the kernel – this makes sense to me... and I don't want to test his stuff any more.
On the other hand, I'm not very happy with btrfs as my root partition. I was contemplating on replacing it with either bcachefs or xfs. It will probably be xfs. We'll see. The reason for this: reflinks, snapshots and deduplication. Otherwise I would have stayed with ext4. Maybe they enhance ext4 to include reflinks as well some day...
Just my 2¢. See ya all!
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