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Zucca
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 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Took some time to find it, but I knew I read somewhere long ago about gpgpu packet filtering. So the link I posted wasn't what I remembered, that's indeed something different.
I believe it was this, what I was remembering. Well... It's a research paper. Looks like they got the concept working. What remains is real world implementation. I haven't seen one, but although, I haven't been actively looking for one.
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logrusx
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | Took some time to find it, but I knew I read somewhere long ago about gpgpu packet filtering. So the link I posted wasn't what I remembered, that's indeed something different.
I believe it was this, what I was remembering. Well... It's a research paper. Looks like they got the concept working. What remains is real world implementation. I haven't seen one, but although, I haven't been actively looking for one. |
Unfortunately, there's specialized hardware for that too. And it's much more CPU like wrt it can run a normal OS and no one is in the rush to use GPU's to replace it, which kind of proves my point. Note that it's expensive too and if it was more efficient to do it on the GPU people would have already switched.
I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but I want to see it first. Also the paper is from 2013. GPU's have progressed immensely since then. I bet it would have been already the norm if it was viable.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | Only one area I could see where kernel could possibly utilize GPU is networking tasks. |
you are right, huge flows of information are transmitted over networks. some servers simply choke. and in this case 1024 cores are better than 32. I do not argue that you can scale servers, but the price of a xeon processor with 64 cores and a GPU with 1024 cores is different, it is in favor of the GPU. and no matter how anyone wants it, but Internet networks will be tied to AI. xeon is not suitable for these purposes. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:42 am Post subject: |
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It, however, looks like network packet manipulation is nowdays handled by DPUs or FPGAs.
Since while GPU could be powerful in simple packet manipulation tasks, DPUs are specifically made to do that exact thing, and FPGAs can be optimized.
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Now I understand why we have nothing good in this direction. You find a problem but do not solve it, you just tell everyone about it and its complexity. Now you can run a function on the GPU in several threads at the same time, in parallel. Personally, I use it, but in my tasks I always have to return the result to the CPU. This kills everything. A CPU in which you can run functions in different threads, but not in parallel, you can only do it sequentially. If all the software ran on the GPU, this would not have happened. The problem of parallel computing exists, but this does not mean that they are not needed. The fact that you are sharpened and can program only on the CPU and cannot think how to implement it on the GPU does not mean that we should all refuse and not develop parallel computing. They are needed, and new algorithms are needed. You are just scared to hear about it and you are trying to find a hundred reasons not to deal with it. You would rather sit on an 8-core Xeon all your life just because you know how to write software for it. |
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| logrusx wrote: |
GPU is totally unfit to handle such tasks. |
[/quote]
you are amateurs. I see it now. in some countries there is strong censorship, and all traffic is checked. for this you need huge computing capabilities. and if you want to enter this area in such a country you will have to follow their laws, you will install the software that they say, and perhaps this software will require huge computing capabilities. xeon will not suit you here. you are naive village guys who want to find many reasons to confirm that old hardware is better than new. this is the main philosophy of linux. |
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:14 am Post subject: |
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some kind of nonsense is happening. I have to explain the basics of parallel programming to people who do not know how to do it, who are used to programming only for one CPU core, I have to explain and show them all the advantages of parallel computing so that they pay attention to the GPU and want to see Linux on the GPU. I have to tell others how good it is to have a server on the GPU with 6000 CUDA core and that it is better than 8 AMD CPU cores. Guys, we simply must do everything to switch to a new kernel that will work on the GPU. This kernel must be real-time. We need to take into account all the mistakes of the past. The Linux kernel may soon come under the control of Microsoft, please do not be surprised at this, I already reminded you of the case with the Russian developers, which best showed who we all are for Linux Torvalds, and that he can do anything. Maybe I was wrong and you are not the people who want to live freely. Then I will not be able to get through to you. Slaves do not want to listen to anything. The owners have already decided everything for them. xeon and epyc. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Since you're going all-in conspiracy theory and you're unwilling to accept that GPUs cannot be programmed like CPUs... I'm out.
We've been here before.
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:54 am Post subject: |
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and apparently the main thing that I said, but maybe missed, but it is worth considering that Microsoft and Google are trying to buy and absorb all the small centers in which AI can originate. They are buying up all the startups. Only they will have legal rights to do this. What can we oppose them? There must be a community that will have the opportunity, at least the tools for working and deploying AI. When everything is closed, and novice programmers in this area will not be able to realize their ideas, due to the fact that there will be no tool and environment in which this can be done, what will be left for them? Use the tools of corporations? But will it not happen that what is done with the help of their tools will belong to them? This has already been said. And so adults just sit and do nothing. What are you waiting for? Are you waiting for a miracle? If not here, then where should that free space appear where ideas can be realized that will not be bought by corporations for pennies or selected in accordance with licensing agreements? |
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | Since you're going all-in conspiracy theory and you're unwilling to accept that GPUs cannot be programmed like CPUs... I'm out.
We've been here before. |
There is no conspiracy theory. There are only facts. And I have already given them. And I will voice them to you once again: Linux Torvalds kicked out the kernel developers like dogs. It clearly showed who is the boss and he will dispose of his property as he sees fit. Perhaps the kernel will go to Microsoft. It is just not ready yet, in terms of games. Other facts, that all the cents where a new AI trend can arise are bought, this is also a fact. There is no conspiracy theory here. And yes, you can go. But where will you go? You are just little children who want to hide from problems. Well, good luck to you. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Gentoopc,
Your 'facts' are worthless without some supporting citations.
Until you provide those references, your 'facts' are only assertions or even only opinions.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | Gentoopc,
Your 'facts' are worthless without some supporting citations.
Until you provide those references, your 'facts' are only assertions or even only opinions. |
to whom and why should I prove anything? those people who can change something and have the knowledge that could create a real-time microkernel for GPU know that I am telling the truth, because they are in the know about what is happening. others can find information on what I have said. this information is available. if I wanted to convince someone of something, I would of course try to be convincing and provide links. but I just want you to understand the problem that awaits us, and that simply burying your head in the sand is not the way out. we must free ourselves from the burden of obligations that they impose on us in the form of license agreements. we pay money for hardware and we can use this hardware. we need to make a real-time microkernel that can work independently on their hardware without any firmware. the kernel must work with the hardware directly, that is why it is the kernel. and I think this approach, when you have space in the future, will force them to reconsider many things, and not do whatever they want. the free community has to come up with something, and that something has to be significant. switching to gpu lays the foundation for everything. you can implement many things without having millions of dollars. you don't even need to reinvent the wheel. everything is there. you just need to set the right priorities. if you think this is stupid, then there really is nothing more to talk about. |
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logrusx
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I'm willing to admit I might be partially wrong about some stuff. There still might be good use cases for the GPU outside of what it was initially designed for.
However the general idea I stand behind is correct. A GPU is not capable of hosting a kernel. Whatever kind of it. It's highly parallel, but that also makes it's less sequential. And that can't change, because this is embedded in the hardware. Whoever has programmed an FPGA and dealt with the problem what to use the triggers for - memory or logic, understands what I'm talking about. More logic - faster and more parallel and more memory - slower and more sequential the program should be. Still the number of triggers is the same and you should make a compromise between the two.
Also the GPU can't drive itself. It needs an OS running on a CPU to drive it and to drive the tasks that can be offloaded. It's a co-processor. Some of us remember the times of co-processors. There were SX and DX processors(386 and 486, I don't remember what the situation with 8086 and 286 was), the latter containing additional circuitry for arithmetic operations, which made it faster overall. There were co-processors sold as a separate part you could fit on the motherboard or even in-between the CPU and the socket. I hesitate to say those were ALU's because I don't really remember if they were just an addition to the ALU.
If the GPU was to change more toward being able to host a kernel and conduct more general tasks, that would defeat the purpose of it being specialized, it being a G(raphic) PU. That would make it less specialized and more general purpose, less efficient with the tasks it can now handle with ease. That would make it less GPU and more CPU.
The models of the CPU and GPU are fundamentally different. One must be universal and the other - specialized.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54740
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Gentoopc,
If you wish to engage in a serious debate, by providing some supporting evidence for your technical position, this topic can be unlocked.
While you keep going over the same, so far, baseless claims, over and over, its time to stop.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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