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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:48 am Post subject: Installing Ethernet Drivers on Installation Media |
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Hello!
I have thusfar been unsuccessful in accessing the internet on any bootable media from my new computer.
I have installed gentoo on a few broken laptops in the past month or two (from the minimum install CD), but am otherwise fairly new. I had no trouble configuring dhcpcd, sshd, or openRC on those devices.
This computer is a newly assembled a desktop computer, and I think the problem is that I am missing a driver for Ethernet connection.
The machine is connected to the same ethernet cable these other machines were connected to, and to the same port on the router.
My motherboard did not come with a manual, so I am never buying from Gigabyte again, but moreover: here's what I have tried so far (also apologies; I cannot copy/paste, so I am copying these by hand):
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Running displays:
Code: |
1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
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As there are no devices aside from the loopback, my next search was:
The two entries I thought were relevant were:
Code: |
06:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8125 2.5GbE Controller (rev 0c)
Subsystem: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd Device e000
Kernel modules: r8169
07:00.0 Network controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8922AE 802.11be PCIe Wireless Network Adapter (rev 01)
Subsystem: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd RTL8922AE 802.11be PCIe Wireless Network Adapter
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This is why I assume that the issue is with the drivers; the Ethernet controller shows up in lspci.
The next thing I tried to do was download the driver for the RTL8125. It is the second file here: https://www.realtek.com/Download/List?cate_id=584
It comes as a file.tar.bz2
I copied it onto a second flash drive, and copied it onto the filesystem for the minimum install cd, only to discover that make and gcc are not included.
Following this thread: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1005562-start-0.html I attempted to install Gentoo from SystemRescue as well, but encountered the exact same issue at the exact same time.
I also tried the Gentoo liveCD with the plasma GUI. This has make and gcc. From the liveCD, I could still not connect to the internet without fixing anything (I did try).
After copying the files and unpacking the tarball, I attempted:
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cd ~/Desktop/r8125-9.014.01
sudo su
./autorun.sh
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However, this time I got the following errors:
Code: |
Check the old driver and unload it.
rmmod r8169
Build the module and install
make[2]: *** /lib/modules/6.6.74-gentoo-dist/build: No such file or directory. Stop.
make[1]: *** [Makefile:201: clean] Error 2
make: ** [Makefile:48: clean] Error 2
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This is a freshly loaded liveCD, so if there's anything I need to do first, assume I haven't done it.
Finally, I gave up and tried to install debian. I downloaded and installed the latest bookworm iso, and Debian also couldn't find a network driver. This is my best indication that something is wrong, because Debian has never failed me like this before.
I compiled the driver on my other debian computer, and loaded it onto a USB, and Debian says:
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Cannot read removable media, or no drivers found
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So I'm clearly missing something here, and I could use some assistance. |
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bent Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 96 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:45 am Post subject: |
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try and
and see if your ethernet card shows in `ip link` _________________ Back on the G after 15 years on the Cupertino Kool-aid |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the suggestion,
I tried this on both the minimal install and the liveCD. No new devices appear in `ip link`
Also, on a fresh boot of the minimal install, I ran:
It comes up with:
This indicates to me that r8169 was already running in the kernel. |
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bent Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 96 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Hm, I saw somewhere the 8125 should work under the 8169 driver. Sorry, that's all I've got. _________________ Back on the G after 15 years on the Cupertino Kool-aid |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Ah, that's okay. Thanks for trying to help!
Maybe someone else will come along. |
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Hu Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 23085
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the forums. I think it is unusual for lspci to report the kernel module for a network device, but then ip link not to show it. Is there anything relevant in dmesg noting that the kernel found your card? I wonder if your card needs firmware, and without the firmware, is not functional enough for ip link to report it. |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi, and thank you!
I'm not sure how to interpret *dmesg*, but here are some lines I think are relevant (because the numbers 8125 and 8922 match the ethernet and network devices, and because 6:00 and 7:00 match those devices in the *lspci* call):
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[ 0.451186] pci 0000:04:00.0: PCI bridge to [bus 05]
[ 0.451235] pci 0000:06:00.0: [10ec:8125] type 00 class 0x020000
[ 0.451254] pci 0000:06:00.0: reg 0x10: [io 0xd000-0xd0ff]
[ 0.451280] pci 0000:06:00.0: reg 0x18: [mem 0xdeb00000-0xdeb0ffff 64bit]
[ 0.451297] pci 0000:06:00.0: reg 0x20: [mem 0xdeb10000-0xdeb13fff 64bit]
[ 0.451413] pci 0000:06:00.0: supports D1 D2
[ 0.451414] pci 0000:06:00.0: PME# supported from D0 D1 D2 D3hot D3cold
[ 0.451648] pci 0000:04:02.0: PCI bridge to [bus 06]
[ 0.451651] pci 0000:04:02.0: bridge window [io 0xd000-0xdfff]
[ 0.451653] pci 0000:04:02.0: bridge window [mem 0xdeb00000-0xdebfffff]
[ 0.451698] pci 0000:07:00.0: [10ec:8922] type 00 class 0x028000
[ 0.451715] pci 0000:07:00.0: reg 0x10: [io 0xc000-0xc0ff]
[ 0.451735] pci 0000:07:00.0: reg 0x18: [mem 0xdea00000-0xdeafffff 64bit]
[ 0.451846] pci 0000:07:00.0: PME# supported from D0 D3hot D3cold
[ 0.452042] pci 0000:04:03.0: PCI bridge to [bus 07]
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If you're wondering how I copied and pasted this without internet, I copied /var/log/dmesg to a flash drive.
Also, this is the motherboard: https://www.aorus.com/en-us/motherboards/x870-aorus-elite-wifi7-ice/Key-Features
Thanks for taking the time to help! |
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pietinger Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 5373 Location: Bavaria
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:47 am Post subject: |
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xevra,
Code: | 06:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8125 2.5GbE Controller (rev 0c)
Subsystem: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd Device e000
Kernel modules: r8169 |
That kernel module has been around for a very long time. Realtek/kerned devs keep adding to it.
As you have a 2.5GbE device, I'll guess that your kernel is too old.
Adding to the install media is difficult, so don't. :)
You appear to have got the hang of sneakernet, so install using that instead, at least, until you boot your own testing kernel .
That post is nearly 20 years old. The idea still works but some of the paths have changed.
The Gentoo testing kernel is important. The install media has the stable kernel and we already know that that doesn't work for you. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you both for the information, suggestions, and links.
Fortunately, it seems like it will be easier to sneakernet with a USB than optical disks, and I have another machine with a working Gentoo installation (along with portage).
The pull request seems to suggest that version 6.13 of the kernel may be new enough, and again, quite fortunately, there is both a distribution kernel and a binary for version 6.13.1 (though they are considered to be in testing).
If I am understanding you correctly, then I will be completing most of the installation of the operating system (from the Stage 3 tarball to boot) in sneakernet mode. This means that each package I need to install along the way will need to be copied onto the USB stick.
There are steps in the handbook I will need to skip (the emerge-websync, setting up cron, etc...) until after I boot.
I will need to sneakernet many files for emerge to work properly.
Following you instructions in the other thread, I can
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emerge <target> -fp
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to identify urls that I will need, and use wget to download them on another machine, which doesn't even need to be a Gentoo machine.
Have I interpreted that correctly?
This will take me some time to work through.
Thank you for the help! |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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xevra,
You don't need many files.
A portage snapshot.
A Stage 3
A kernel - 6.13.x
A boot loader is optional but advised - say grub.
efibootmgr will be good too, to point your firmware at your Gentoo.
If you build your own kernel, no initrd is required unless you need user space tools to expose the root filesystem, or have /usr and or /var on their own partitions.
Going this way means that everything required to mount root must be built into the kernel.
If you want a dracut or genkernel initrd, than you need all the userspace sources that they will want to install.
What you said is essentially correct.
== edit ==
Gentoo only stabilises LTS kernels. There is too much testing to do to do more than that, so don't worry about the Gentoo testing status of 6.13.x _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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freke Veteran
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 1051 Location: Somewhere in Denmark
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | Gentoo only stabilises LTS kernels. There is too much testing to do to do more than that, so don't worry about the Gentoo testing status of 6.13.x |
Well..... 6.12 is LTS but not stabilized here a couple of months later |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | xevra,
You don't need many files.
A portage snapshot.
A Stage 3
A kernel - 6.13.x
A boot loader is optional but advised - say grub.
efibootmgr will be good too, to point your firmware at your Gentoo.
If you build your own kernel, no initrd is required unless you need user space tools to expose the root filesystem, or have /usr and or /var on their own partitions.
Going this way means that everything required to mount root must be built into the kernel.
If you want a dracut or genkernel initrd, than you need all the userspace sources that they will want to install.
What you said is essentially correct.
== edit ==
Gentoo only stabilises LTS kernels. There is too much testing to do to do more than that, so don't worry about the Gentoo testing status of 6.13.x |
NeddySeagoon, thank you again for the clarifications.
I do have a few more questions because I am fairly new.
I've been trying to ask intelligent questions up to this point, but it would be less work in the long run for me to ask my stupid questions now as well.
Quote: | A portage snapshot. |
How do I find a portage snapshot, and is it complicated to use / is there a page in the manual I should be reading?
When you say I need a kernel, do you mean the binary itself? So I should compile one on a separate Gentoo distribution and make sure the USE flags don't exclude the hardware on my new machine, and then just copy and paste it?
In the long run, I want to use a distribution kernel because I want it to automatically recompile when I change my use flags and cast the legendary spell:
Code: | emerge --keep-going -e --ask @world |
Quote: | A boot loader is optional but advised - say grub. |
I am happy to install grub.
This is also a good time to mention that I eventually want to install gnome, and was planning to use eselect profile to select default/linux/amd64/23.0/desktop/gnome. Is it still possible to do that using this approach? |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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xevra,
There is only one stupid question. That's the one you never ask. You never know the answer.
It used to be in the handbook. Snapshots are posted to https://distfiles.gentoo.org/snapshots/ You will want portage-latest.tar.xz or portage-latest.tar.bz2.
You could even cheat an use the copy of the ::gentoo repo on your existing Gentoo install.
Paranoid users can check the gpgsig too.
That takes the place of websync
In the interests of avoiding building an initrd, I would use gentoo-sources and configure it by hand.
As you have a working gentoo off to one side, you could make a kernel and initrd there that works for both sets of hardware, then copy over the kernel binary, the initrd and the kernel modules.
That works best if you install the kernel on the build box then the modules end up in /lib/modules/<kernel-name> You want the entire /lib/modules/<kernel-name> directory.
As I've said, the initrd is only required if you need user space programs to expose the root filesystem or you need kernel modules to mount the root filesystem.
Its a verybadthing to need to read /lib/modules/<kernel-name> to load a module needed to read /lib/modules/<kernel-name>. :)
This approach is aimed at getting you working networking with no more than a framebuffer console. After that you can add whatever you want.
The idea is to not do more than you need to to to be able to boot your own kernel, or a 6.13.x kernel of some sort and log in as root.
The r8169 driver is very common. You just need a new version but to get that it's easiest if you have a whole kernel. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 4:21 am Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon,
Thank you for your thoughtful answers!
I have unpacked a stage 3 tarball on my machine, and copied over portage-latest.tar.xz
I don't know how to install it.
I attempted to do: Code: | tar xpvf portage-latest.tar.xz --xattrs-includ='*.*' --numeric-owner -C /usr | and verified that the tarball unpacked at /usr/portage.
However, when I run emerge -fp sys-kernel/gentoo-sources, I get some error messages:
Code: | !!! Section 'gentoo' in repos.conf has location attributes set to nonexistent directory: '/var/db/repos/gentoo'
!!! Invalid Repository Location (not a dir): '/var/db/repos/gentoo'
!!! /etc/portage/make.profile is not a symlink and will probably prevent most mergers.
!!! It should point into a profile within /var/db/repos/gentoo/profiles/
!!! (You can safely ignore this message when syncing. It's harmless.)
!!! Your current profile is invalid. If you have just changed your profile
!!! configuration, you should revert back to the previous configuration.
!!! Allowed actions are limited to --help, --info, --search, --sync, and
!!! --version
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What should my next step be?
Edit: typed wrong extension for portage snapshot. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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xevra,
Its been a long time since /usr/portage was the default path fro the ::gentoo repo.
You have two choices.
1. Unpack it to the location given in Its close to the top.
Code: | Repositories:
gentoo
location: /var/db/repos/gentoo |
2. edit /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf to change the location.
Code: | [gentoo]
location = /var/db/repos/gentoo |
Both will make portage find the ::repo,
The first way is preferred, so that you use the system defaults.
The location is in your error message
Code: | !!! Section 'gentoo' in repos.conf has location attributes set to nonexistent directory: '/var/db/repos/gentoo'
!!! Invalid Repository Location (not a dir): '/var/db/repos/gentoo' |
A mv will fix it too. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon,
Thank you for helping me find the location where those files belong.
I was able to move them, and to read the news using eselect news read.
However, when I now run emerge -fp sys-kernel/gentoo-sources, I get this error: Code: | These are the packages that would be fetched, in order:
Calculating dependencies ... done!
Dependency resolution took 0.37 s (backtrack: 0/20).
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 20:35:59-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://artfiles.org/gnu.org/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 20:35:59-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/linux-6.6.tar.xz https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v6.x/linux-6.6.tar.xz
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 20:35:59-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/genpatches-6.6-83.base.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.6-83.base.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~alicef/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.6-83.base.tar.xz
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 20:35:59-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/genpatches-6.6-83.extras.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.6-83.extras.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~alicef/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.6-83.extras.tar.xz |
That file is readily available for download. However, I do not know where to put it, or how to let portage know how to find it.
What should my next step be? |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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xevra,
Code: | /var/db/repos/gentoo/metadata:
total 352
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 923 Feb 12 2024 AUTHORS
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Feb 5 20:28 dtd
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 155648 Feb 5 20:28 glsa
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct 31 11:03 install-qa-check.d
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2461 Aug 26 18:11 layout.conf |
There it is.
Download it and put it into /var/db/repos/gentoo/metadata _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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xevra n00b
Joined: 04 Feb 2025 Posts: 9 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon,
Having done this, I still get the same error message running emerge -fp sys-kernel/gentoo-sources.
Hold on, the packages are right there in the error message. I discovered this by trying to emerge -fp app-editors/vim, and noticed that I got a different number of error messages.
With this in mind, I added ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" to my make.conf, following the handbook, and ran the command again: Code: | These are the packages that would be fetched, in order:
Calculating dependencies ... done!
Dependency resolution took 0.36 s (backtrack: 0/20).
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 21:55:11-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2 https://artfiles.org/gnu.org/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 21:55:12-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/linux-6.13.tar.xz https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v6.x/linux-6.13.tar.xz
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 21:55:12-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/genpatches-6.13-2.base.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.base.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~alicef/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.base.tar.xz
>>> Downloading 'http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf'
--2025-02-06 21:55:12-- http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/layout.conf
Resolving distfiles.gentoo.org... failed: Temporary failure in name resolution.
wget: unable to resolve host address ‘distfiles.gentoo.org’
!!! Couldn't download '.layout.conf.distfiles.gentoo.org'. Aborting.
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/genpatches-6.13-2.extras.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.extras.tar.xz https://dev.gentoo.org/~alicef/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.extras.tar.xz
| Out of that, I believe the files I want are: Code: | https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/cpio/cpio-2.15.tar.bz2
https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v6.x/linux-6.13.tar.xz
https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.base.tar.xz
https://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/dist/genpatches/genpatches-6.13-2.extras.tar.xz |
Also, am I wrong in thinking that the http and https urls in the same line are duplicates, and I only need one of them? |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54824 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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xevra,
Yes, you need exactly one copy of each file. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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pietinger Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 5373 Location: Bavaria
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