kdbus in the kernel

ct85711 · Veteran Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1791

For me, I stopped using any kind of ramfs, back in either 2001 or 02. So I remember using the old initrd quite well, and all the trouble I was encountering with it. Surprisingly enough, once I recompiled the kernel so that it didn't need a initrd/initramfs (on a original Redhat linux distro); all those troubles stopped and never had to worry about it since. The key thing is, Why should I be forced to use a initramfs when my system hasn't ever needed one to begin with? I have NEVER needed LUKS, LVM, or any other special thing. When my system dies, I download a random linux live cd to in the worse case to fix my problems. Either way from how I've seen it, if my drive fails, it doesn't matter what was on it, as what's dead is still dead, not going to change that. Note, that's why you back up your important information (I don't bother backing up anything, but nothing on my system is that critical if I loose it either).

steveL · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject:

steveL · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject:

MustrumR · n00b Joined: 15 Nov 2011 Posts: 71 Location: Right here

About separate usr without initramfs this is what I would do:
- Have sys-apps/busybox on rootfs

khayyam · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject:

saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 655

asturm · Developer Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 9321

khayyam · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:13 pm Post subject:

steveL · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:24 am Post subject:

saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 655

Ant P. · Watchman Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920

khayyam · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:02 am Post subject:

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:01 am Post subject:

It's kind of funny how the argument "I don't need or use an initramfs so you shouldn't or it's moronic"
sounds an awful lot like the justifications that LP uses for his choices in systemd "I don't need it so no one else should".

Seriously folks.
We all (pretty much) agree that the /usr thing re. udev wasn't a good idea. Let it go. Move forward instead of being stuck somewhere in the past.
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saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 655

depontius · Advocate Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3525

tclover · Guru Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Posts: 516

Thanks Khayyam, for clarifying a few things which is _more_ than necessary seeing how SteveL, and a few others, like to keep that confusion between the _facility_ and being _forced_ to use the "facility" (initramfs) going as far as _never_ use an initramfs (because it's, _"obviously"_, too much a maintenance _burden_.)

After reading SteveL response and subsequents other answers, I decided to not waste unnecessary times reading or posting subsequent posts which would be, for sure, _mere_ waste of time.
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steveL · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject:

khayyam · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject:

WWWW · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Posts: 143

I have to say this to support SteveL.

Yes, initramfs does have its drawbacks.

I think what SteveL says or aims is for simplicity in a process in general. Cut off all the unnecessary stuff as much as possible to have something working.

initramfs did become somewhat bloated over time. I remember the time the kernel itself was able to boot itself alone.

I had to give up this idea due to using zfs, or when using lvm. Now I have to resort to genkernel which is immensely bloated and grabs tons of stuff to build the initramfs.

The difference between one building something and knowing where all the pieces fall in contrast to build something blindly adding everything in the hopes this way it'll boot. The former has it's merit.

Here the conflict is taking away the former option without apparent reason.

Take as an example GRUB vs UEFI booting. Grub has taken away the option to boot in a simple way and favored placing files all over the place.

Before everything needed used to reside under /boot/grub/ now the files are scattered all over the place. Even the more intuitive grub file in /etc has a big fat warning on top "DON'T CHANGE ME HERE IT WILL BE OVERWRITTEN!!".

Grub has evolved to a configuration completely automated but it fails in many scenarios where somebody doesn't use the 'ubuntu linux' experience.

Try to set a boot entry manually in grub2. Plain schizophrenic. Crazy order of things, insane syntax, modules dependencies, etc. And prolly you end up with a borked entry that needs further fixing.

Now try UEFI boot entry.

1- kernel in /boot (this is an extra step due to initramfs)
2- boot kernel in /esi
3- boot the machine

Without an initramfs it get's reduced to 2 steps:

1- kernel in /esi
2- boot the machine

No fucking around with insane amount of files, syntax, etc whatsoever. I never got around using grub2 due to this.

It's been a while since I don't use separate /usr anymore thanks to systemd isis terrorism borking my system. So I can't go into detail about this.

In other words, I supposed it comes down to defending the "simplicity of a process", nothing more and nothing less. Sure initramfs can solve or work in many scenarios, but if it can be done in a more concise way? Why not? Why destroy, impede, discourage the 'simplicity of a process'?

thanks

ct85711 · Veteran Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1791

The part I am waiting for is when we get to the point that initramfs is no longer needed at all, even for zfs and lvm and stuff. Yes, I know it's been said the kernel devs said they will not add support to the kernel, but who said anything that a package adds onto the kernel such that you install the package that adds an addition to the kernel (not meaning as a module, actual addition to the kernel). You recompile the kernel adding the support for the package into the kernel. I'm not meaning adding a kernel module that gets loaded after the kernel is running (from what I've seen/read, for boot up having the core parts as a module won't work).

steveL · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject:

greyspoke · Apprentice Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 171

WWWW - roll your own initramfs. I am not a programmer, but I managed to do this (when I had a separate /usr) well enough to assemble arrays with mdadm, start lvm volumes and then mount and check /usr and /var with some basic shell scripting.

It is explained pretty well on the wiki: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Custom_Initramfs

khayyam · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject:

steveL · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject:

@khayyam: I don't know why you're taking this so personally, nor indeed accusing me of all kinds of stuff. You seem to want to hold me to some artificial standard of conduct no-one else has to follow. My replies must be tailored to exactly what the other party has said, and I am not allowed to go off on a tangent, or if I do, I must be admonished about it over several posts, none of which acknowledge my right to do exactly that.

And it's not like you don't go off on tangents (sometimes massively so); but somehow if I state that the one thing we seem to get with consistency from the nub-skool is regression, that must be "aggression" on my part, and I must be dragged over the coals for it. Just for the record, I wasn't being aggressive; and you cannot possibly know what tone I am taking since this is non-verbal. So please, let it go.

Or don't; either way I'm out of this sub-thread as it is both tedious and futile. I'm sorry you're evidently so stressed-out atm.

All I'd say is: as usual people are trying to turn the spotlight on to the person discussing the flaw, rather than simply discussing the flaw, and moving on. Dunno if that's cognitive dissonance or what; all I know is it's both very unpleasant, and nothing I want to emulate. Ever.

Naib · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject:

v3 is out

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1501.2/00487.html
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#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;