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necromony
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 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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thx...what an honor!
I've been appreciating the comedy of this thread for a few months now. It will be sad to see it go.
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Q: How many readers of this thread does it take, to realize the answer to the question "When will 1.4 will be realeased?", is not going to change until the actual release?
A: We don't know, we're still counting.
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
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Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Question: who will be the moderator to lock this thread? Let s bet on that 
| Tristam29 wrote: | | metalhedd wrote: | | *bitch* *Bitch* *Moan* *complain* I want 1.4 Final!! |
Same here. I've wanted to lock this thread personally for a very long time. Soon I will have the chance, very soon. |
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Zebulon
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Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 12:40 am Post subject: |
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The real question is : when will moderators and developpers realize that we don't need a release date, but any tiny bit of info we can get.
This distro is really going somewhere (just check distrowatch.com =), but it won't make it to the top unless devellopers communicate with users.
Sadly enought, they don't...... |
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rac
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Joined: 30 May 2002
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Location: Japanifornia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Zebulon wrote: | | The real question is : when will moderators and developpers realize that we don't need a release date, but any tiny bit of info we can get. |
You want info? OK, here's info, courtesy of Lovechild.
| Quote: | This distro is really going somewhere (just check distrowatch.com =), but it won't make it to the top unless devellopers communicate with users.
Sadly enought, they don't...... |
I think I've said this before, but I totally disagree with this sentiment. I want every minute of volunteer developer time spent on Gentoo going towards developing. Let other people do PR.
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Zebulon
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Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| rac wrote: | | You want info? OK, here's info, courtesy of Lovechild. |
Thanks, that's a start.
| Quote: | | I think I've said this before, but I totally disagree with this sentiment. I want every minute of volunteer developer time spent on Gentoo going towards developing. Let other people do PR. |
Ok, call me stupid, but here is my opinion.
The more people work on a project, the faster it will go.
The more people use Gentoo, the more devellopers will be interested by this distro and will be willing to contribut. no ?
What brings people's attention to a product ?
----> infos and advertissement. Just anything to show people that the project is alive.
And by the way, I don't know what "PR" is.[/quote] |
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pilla
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Well, it is not really so easy.... I have read that at some point, increasing the number of persons working in a project just contributes to delay it even more. Think about the management challenges...
BTW, I agree with rac about what developers should do -- develop...
Think about the stress we are putting on them when we keep asking when it is due. I do not think they even know when it is due, because it depends on a lot of things (like gcc 3.2 working OK).
| Zebulon wrote: |
Ok, call me stupid, but here is my opinion.
The more people work on a project, the faster it will go.
The more people use Gentoo, the more devellopers will be interested by this distro and will be willing to contribut. no ?
What brings people's attention to a product ?
----> infos and advertissement. Just anything to show people that the project is alive.
And by the way, I don't know what "PR" is. |
Last edited by pilla on Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pjp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:00 am Post subject: |
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PR is an abbreviation for 'Public Relations'.
Also, I think Gentoo has gotten this far without much 'advertising'. I could be mistaken, but I've seen very little.
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:25 am Post subject: |
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8 pages of stuff... to no avail. Hey ppl, really, what's so freaking interesting on this one? All I see is:
-is it coming next week?
- no, not yet...
The BIG point here is that you shouldn't consider gentoo releases like normal distros... Normal distros release big chunks in a cd and then a couple of fresh fixes / updates. Gentoo in the other hand works more on a fluid evolution pattern. Unless it's a mission critical box, you can happily go for the rc1 and update world after update world you will be in synch anytime. If you really want to keep it safe, don't update packages the morning after an ebuild appears on the tree... give it some time and watch the forums for noise. There are ppl who don't care risking it as the price for bleeding edge and any troubles probably will show up rather soon.
Zebulon: I find that ppl here on gentoo have rather sensitive ears for their users. It's a very rare case that a question or request won't be faced appropriately (and never out of indifference). We don't need any PR. If you are ready for gentoo you will find it anyway... I'd rather have 10 developers working on the codes rather than 2 on the code and 8 bullshiting on why the code takes so much to be worked with...
just my 2 c.
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pjp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Don't waste your typing KiTaSuMbA... they just don't get it.
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plate
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| kanuslupus wrote: | | Don't waste your typing KiTaSuMbA... they just don't get it. |
Maybe you should just start spreading rumours, like "1.4 isn't going to happen because FreeBSD is sueing over patent infringement re: portage" or "drobbins is shifting everything to a .NET architecture, be patient" or similar nonsense. Would be interesting to check on newsgroups and mailing lists how fast something like that travels. Ah, the delights of misinformation!  |
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 7:27 am Post subject: |
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plate: when we say we don't need PR I think that includes negative one. 
However, I must admit the .NET one is a very tempting idea. 
How about, drobbins hired by MS in their strategy change to attack the Open Source from within? I guarantee floods in the MLs...
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masseya
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Joined: 17 Apr 2002
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Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| KiTaSuMbA wrote: | | However, I must admit the .NET one is a very tempting idea. |
Microsoft is really good at coming up with ideas. I think it would be cool if all their marketing was absolutely true. However, the reality of the matter is quite different.
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Tristam29 wrote: | | KiTaSuMbA wrote: | | However, I must admit the .NET one is a very tempting idea. |
Microsoft is really good at coming up with ideas. I think it would be cool if all their marketing was absolutely true. However, the reality of the matter is quite different. |
/me is puzzled... 
Tristam is this meta-irony or you really believe I consider .NET a succesful technology? 
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Chris Hickman
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
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Location: Coralville, IA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| rac wrote: | | Zebulon wrote: | | The real question is : when will moderators and developpers realize that we don't need a release date, but any tiny bit of info we can get. |
You want info? OK, here's info, courtesy of Lovechild.
| Quote: | This distro is really going somewhere (just check distrowatch.com =), but it won't make it to the top unless devellopers communicate with users.
Sadly enought, they don't...... |
I think I've said this before, but I totally disagree with this sentiment. I want every minute of volunteer developer time spent on Gentoo going towards developing. Let other people do PR. |
I find it hard to believe that there isn't one developer out of however many that doesn't have 5 minutes they could spend once a week typing up a short post on this forum briefing the community on the status of this project! It could look something like this:
"Gentoo 1.4 status report: Fixed foo1 and bar2 this week. Foo3 and bar4 should be done next week. That leaves foo5 and bar6 to be completed until it is ready for release, which means the next release candidate should be out around X and the release around Y."
Even granting more space for the variables, that's about 6-7 lines tops, and it took me about a minute to write that. Yes that's right, one minute. My question is, we HAD a small updates avenue for a while, that CVS page, but it hasn't been updated in 2 months...why?
Unless they are spending every single minute outside of their real jobs on this project, there should be no reason one of the developers could this once a week. Hell, they could even trade off and have a different one do it each week, causing even less time to be spent on this! And I disagree with wanting the developers to spend "every minute" on coding and testing..if that happens, it's going to suck anyway, because they're not going to be grounded in reality  (i.e. what about family, entertainment, their own personal emails, etc.). Plus they're going to have less interaction with the community that uses their product, since developer communication is a two way street...that little weekly 1 minute post would generate at least a dozen helpful emails, I'm sure. Instead we have this thread, where people are treated as idiots for wanting to know the status of a freaking open source project!
I hope you guys see the light eventually. |
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Zebulon
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Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bloody Bastard wrote: | | Well, it is not really so easy.... I have read that at some point, increasing the number of persons working in a project just contributes to delay it even more. Think about the management challenges... |
Actually I agree with this statement.
But here is another to be thought about :
I saw other projects where a few "devellopers" are just writting documentation and keeping the users informed.
You guys are saying that this is stupid, 'cos that makes less devellopers develloping. Well guess what, in fact it doesn't. Why ? because, even if those "devellopers" are on the devellopement team, they don't know how to code.
So .... Why doesn't Gentoo get people like this. I think you moderators could be this kind of guys, but obviously there is NO communication between you and the devellopment team.
Another thing that's really anoying is when you guys say that Gentoo is up to date after an "emerge world". I agree, but what about guys connecting with a speedtouch USB, for example ?
I think I asked the question about 4 or 5 times on these forums and never got any answer (and I'm not the only one). |
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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we've seen the light already! We use 1.4rc1 and are happy with it! In case you haven't followed that "here" link... it depends on GNU finalizing gcc3.2. That's pretty much out of any gentoo developer's hand to fix foo or bar. Remember also, that 1.4 was supposed to ship with gcc3.1 which was abbondoned due to serious bugs and incompatibilities. Now, changing cc in the middle of a release cycle HAS this kind of delaying effect. I wish people didn't pay all that attention to numbers... Take a toor on the forums, you'll find out that by now reports of bugs due to gcc are very close to /dev/zero and are basically due to specific apps non sustaining extreme optimizations, not bugs inherent in the compiler. So, if you are so eager to get 1.4 you could go for the rc1 with just a bit of extra care. Also notice that ebuilds are updated in a continuous mode and there is always a risk the fresh ebuild is problematic in some cases (although things can be considered a bit safer now with the stable/unstable flags). That means that
a) there is no such thing as "stable gentoo" in the debian sort of speaking
b) the day after 1.4 is released there is a more updated gentoo.
Frankly, given the above reflections, I really don't get this "awaiting for the big bang to happen."
It's not about bangs here, it's about flow! There is a poll out there about how often people update world or at least -p update world... I guess you will be frightened to see the votes. Personaly I rsync twice a week and -up world to selectively update for security issues, bug fixes and the odd extra feature.
Kanuslupus was probably right, I shouldn't start posting in this thread... it's pointless!
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebulon wrote: | I saw other projects where a few "devellopers" are just writting documentation and keeping the users informed.
You guys are saying that this is stupid, 'cos that makes less devellopers develloping. Well guess what, in fact it doesn't. Why ? because, even if those "devellopers" are on the devellopement team, they don't know how to code.
So .... Why doesn't Gentoo get people like this. I think you moderators could be this kind of guys, but obviously there is NO communication between you and the devellopment team.
|
What exactly is missing in the documentation? Accusations are easy but useless... Suggestions are harder but valuable!
| Zebulon wrote: | | Another thing that's really anoying is when you guys say that Gentoo is up to date after an "emerge world". I agree, but what about guys connecting with a speedtouch USB, for example ? |
Let's see if I understand this one... You are saying that after you recompile a kernel, your USB modem does not work. Obvious, you have to put those drivers linked in the fresh kernel. Which is exactly the case with nvidia drivers or alsa... Is it your complain that this process isn't automated? Well, don't complain, suggest! Off you go to bugs.gentoo.org, check if there is already a request or even an ebuild in progress and if not request one for USB speedtouch modems. If nobody is moved by that - those bastards that you pay so much!- , well try it yourself and give the community a hand... try to write an ebuild yourself!
| Quote: | | I think I asked the question about 4 or 5 times on these forums and never got any answer (and I'm not the only one). |
I think you will find a lot of people in these forums stating the exact opposite feeling: that ppl help each other anyhow and as fast as they can. Could it be that everybody here dislikes you and won't answer your questions? No, probably it's because nobody knows what to answer or perhaps understands what you are asking... I wouldn't go that far as bitchin' on people that offer their time, patience and neurons for all of us to share a smile at the result. They are not obbliged you know... it's supposed to be FUN! So, let's keep it that way, shall we?
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Zebulon
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Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hum .... let's try one more time ....
so the devellopers are just ""waiting"" (notice the double quotes, I don't think this at all) for gcc 3.2 to finalize ? Then they should have a minute or two to tell us that, shouldn't they ?
Whatever, I beg you guys to stop barking about this "release numbers don't mean anything" point. We all understood that portage updates give this great distro some kind of "flow" in the updates (that's exactly why it's so great), and that release numbers mean something ONLY during the install phase of the whole system.
Which lead me to one astonning constatation : once again you deliberatly choosed to ignore the "speedtouch USB" issue.
Don't you think that it's a little too easy to make your point if you choose to ignore opinions that don't go your way ???? use your brains for once, pleazzzze ! |
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klieber
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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OK folks -- the tone of this thread has always been borderline and now it's starting to get downright nasty. Clean it up, start acting professional or I'm locking this whole thing.
We can all have different opinions -- that's fine. Insulting each other is not.
--kurt
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KiTaSuMbA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Are you determined to lead this into a flame war??? Are you trolling or simply have an issue with the english language?
What exactly did I ignore of your speedtouch problem? As I can see you only posted ONE thread except from bitching here. As I said, nobody knows how you should do it or nobody noticed or nobody understood what you asked. As a matter of fact, a certain Tom gave you an orientation answer and that perhaps *fetching* the basic packages and the drivers should let you do it. You need more explaination? FINE! Fetch a stage3 get a kernel to compile and the drivers. Install the stage 3. Untar the damn kernel and patch it with the drivers. Compile tha bugger, add it to the boot loader, reboot and HELLO WORLD!
But let's see, since you are so freaking eager for the 1.4, what have you done for your problem to be resolved by then? A search in bugs.gentoo.org for either speedtouch modem OR USB modem results ZERO entries! Now, are you expecting the developers to read their tarrot cards and satisfy your problem??? On what basis do you expect this issue to be resolved by 1.4 since it's not even filed? Let's even grant you that you don't know how this stuff works... did you mention it to the developers Mailing List? Did you try to contact them in any other way, say on IRC? My bet is NO, you didn't move a single finger. Now, are you freaking paying for gentoo? NO! Then, in the name of any God you might believe, how are you coming around the corner *demanding* a solution on a problem you failed to notify clearly???
It's open source, remember? And you provide these people with nothing. Therefore, you have no right to demand but only to politely *request* and there is NO guarantee. I will repeat that bitching is not The Way, discussing IS. If you can't cope with that, take a friendly advice and go back to where you are coming from. Because with this attitude of yours, you shouldn't expect much to benefit from gentoo.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a gentoo developer/moderator/representer. I'm only a user and the above are my personal opinions, but I suggest you take them under serious consideration.
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klieber
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Huh...apparently my first warning wasn't clear enough. Go figure.
Locking thread. Unsticking post.
--kurt
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