Metacity raise-on-click behavior gone?

Jyrinx

I just upgraded to GNOME 2.4, and am quite happy with it, all told :-)

However, one thing is driving me nuts: In hover-to-focus mode with auto-raise off, clicking a window's contents no longer seems to raise it. I have to go to the titlebar, or hit Alt+Tab, or Windows-click (as if starting to move the window), or some such if I want to raise it. This breaks a bunch of UI precepts, IIUC - Fitt's Law and the Principle of Least Surprise come to mind - and it's a pain in the ass. Is this the new global default? (If so, I'm going to have to have a nice little talk with Havoc about what "just works" and what "just makes me want to strangle him" ...)

Jyrinx
jyrinx_list@mindspring.com

(BTW, I don't have anything exotic enabled in GConf, to my knowledge. Not the disable default workarounds thingie, certainly.)

TheWart · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:55 am Post subject:

Hmm

So what is your setting in:

Applications > Desktop Preferences > Windows

Is it set to raise on click? (It was by default for me)
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Jyrinx · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:46 am Post subject:

Hrm? I don't have a raise-on-click option. I have a focus-on-hover option and a raise-on-hover option, but no raise-on-click.

I see the following:

"Select windows when the mouse moves over them" (checked)
"Raise selected windows after an interval" (UNchecked)
"Interval before raising" (slider, grayed)
"Double-click titlebar to perform this action:" (drop-down; "Roll-up" selected)
"To move a window, press-and-hold this key then grab the window:" (Radio buttons; "Super" selected)

'Zis what you got? (Wondering if something hasn't been updated ...)

ronmon · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:49 pm Post subject:

Following the direction of GNOME-2.4 development, one of Metacity's main claims to fame seems to be lack of configurability (a.k.a. dumbing down). That's why I've stayed with Sawfish, which I have used since Dec, 1999 when it was still called Sawmill.

In the interest of fairness, and wanting to be able to use meta-themes, I tried switching to Metacity after the latest gnome updates. The experience was pretty disappointing and I found exactly the problem you did with window raising behavior along with other stuff I didn't like. It was a deal killer for me and I switched back to Sawfish before the end of the day.

Unfortunately, Sawfish development has slowed way down. But it still works better than anything else I have tried, including xfwm4. The only feature that I still miss from earlier Sawfish versions is the option to save window position and size.

Edit: Even though the save window position and size option is still missing, it appears to happen automatically now to a certain extent. The exception seems to be child windows such as playlist windows in apps like totem, mplayer, xmms, etc., as well as 'save', 'save to', or 'save as' dialogue windows in all apps.

nemhain · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:03 pm Post subject:

wohooo!
I always used this bahavior in sawfish and missed it badly when I switched to metacity. Hope it's not a bug, because I love it! :)

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

I was a big sawfish user before metacity as well. I found that I didn't really need a lot of the stuff that sawfish did, although once in a while I miss something.

However, the placement algorithm in metacity is truly awful. Other than that, it really is pretty well done.

Jyrinx · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:37 pm Post subject:

Obz · Retired Dev Joined: 11 Jun 2002 Posts: 274

just a *bump* that this annoys the heck out of me as well. trying to click on a window border or using alt-click, just isnt the same.

peabody12 · n00b Joined: 17 Jul 2002 Posts: 36

in the options somewhere there is a button you can select to be able to hold it down and drag the window to move it. it also serves the function of brining to to the top. i always click w/ this button to raise (it's the windows button for me)
(under windows preferences)
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Ricky · Guru Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 341

As long as other people are chiming in, I'll throw in my $2e-2 too.

I'm a fan of focus-follows-mouse, click-anywhere-raises-window. As stated previously, have to click the taskbar or titlebar or alt+tab is just annoying. Not to mention often slower. I mean, the whole point of sloppy focus and clicking to raise the window is that it allows you to move through windows quickly and without much effort. And I don't like raise on hover. If I'm hovering over a window and not clicking, it's specifically because I want to type in that window with it in the background.

I'm not asking for much, you don't have to put it in the dialogs, at least give me an option that I can get to in gconf-editor or something.

asimon · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:55 am Post subject:

dreamer · Apprentice Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 236

Crg · Guru Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 345 Location: London

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

I was actually referring more to the fact that the windows get placed with top and left priority if there is room. If not, just throw it up in the top left corner. So once your desktop is full of windows, all new ones appear in the top left corner. Ugh.

Also, I seem to remember something in the new changelog for meta, that it handles multiple screens better. Have you tried the new version that comes with gnome 2.4?

Jyrinx · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:05 am Post subject:

Hrm ... looks like it was unintended after all: see http://bugs.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122577. (Though I'm not sure how annoying Havoc realizes this is; raising on click is far more than "marginally better" for the vast majority of people ...)

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

I don't know. It sounds to me like Havoc has a pretty good grasp of the problem. He understands that there are times (DND and selecting text) when you don't want the window to be raised, but most of the rest of the time you do. I have read a lot of what Havoc has written on the subject of usability. I wouldn't expect a sawfish-like "prase-the-title-of-the-window-in-a-regexp-to-see-if-I-should-raise-it" because that's hacky and doesn't work all the time, even though it may look like it to any one person.

If it can't be done "right" he won't do it at all. However, in my one experience, he's very responsive and helpful with patches.

rowi · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:54 am Post subject:

I really like the new behaviour of metacity. But I do understand that not everybody likes it (OTOH I hate raise on click). Since metacity know both ways now this should be an option, at least within gconf

Jyrinx · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:44 pm Post subject:

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

I have frameless terminals. Use Eterm. smoked_glass theme is probably what you want.

check it out.

http://russellcentral.2y.net/screenshots/frameless_terms.png

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

Also, the gconf key

/apps/metacity/window_keybindings/toggle_above

sets the key binding for setting a window to be always on top. Theres a lot in the gconf keys that isnt' exposed through the UI. I guess this is Havocs idea of comprimise. Works for me.

Jyrinx · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:37 pm Post subject:

Corhonio · n00b Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 13

Just in case u haven't figured out how to enable raise on click
set the following key (with g-conf obviously) /apps/metacity/general/focus_mode to click

Freak_NL · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:54 am Post subject:

We HAVE figured that out, it is the missing option of raise-on-click AND focus-on-mouseover that irks us..

Single screen users with this problem are better of with kahakai for their WM. Unfortunatly, kahakai maximizes/fullscreens on the whole virtual desktop (all monitors) when using the twinview option in the NVidia drivers.. (so I'm stuck with metacity)

drjimmy42 · Guru Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 512 Location: Nashua, NH

Have you tried openbox3. I just gave it a whirl after giving up on metacity for the moment, and am quite impressed.

labrador · Guru Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 316

I have used Windows and many flavours of Windows managers, going back to
the days of motif and olwm. Having to Alt-Click or click on the title bar to raise a window
is very bad.

Whoever can change this, please do.

Now if Metacity is the problem, what is the solution?
Someone mentioned sawfish...
What about Enlightenment?