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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | What "requires" openrc?
Is the only thing stopping an openrc fork finding the correct ownership / developers / maintainers? |
Nothing else in the system actually depends on openrc, other than an artificial @system dependency. I've been using runit (vanilla, not the Gentoo ebuild) as PID 1 for two years and only keep openrc around for sysinit/boot runlevel stuff. I could replace it with a few lines of shell, but haven't seen a need to yet.
I guess that's why nobody has bothered to fork it. Once you understand what openrc does, it's obvious it does very little. |
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mrsteven
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Joined: 04 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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That's the best thing I've read about the topic for a while. While the bug is quite funny by itself (of course only if you don't use systemd), it explains quite well what's wrong with systemd. Thanks for sharing!
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Unix philosophy: "Do one thing and do it well."
systemd: "Do everything and do it wrong." |
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miket
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 488
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | turning into a Linux kernel with a Windows-like userspace. I didn't add GNU in there because that's where it starts, but many around here suggest that part of the point is to de-GNU the system. |
It's going from GNU to GNAW (Garbage Nearly Approaching Windows)
What we need instead is to re-GNU our commitment to doing things the Unix Way.
Edited to fix meaning of backonym to match the letters. |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | free-rc anyone? |
Epoch anyone?
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | gwr wrote: | | free-rc anyone? |
Epoch anyone? |
Things like that or "freeRC" are why I asked what "requires" openrc. Does it just work, or do we need a virtual added that can be satisfied by openrc, systemd, freerc, epoch, etc?
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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The virtual exists:
| Code: | ~ $ eix -v virtual/service-manager
* virtual/service-manager
Available versions: 0
IUSE (all versions): prefix KERNEL="linux"
Installed versions: Version: 0
Date: 11:14:28 18/12/15
USE: -prefix KERNEL="linux"
RDEPEND: || ( sys-apps/openrc sys-apps/systemd sys-process/runit virtual/daemontools )
EAPI: 0
0
Package sets: system
Description: Virtual for various service managers |
It looks like @system depends on both that and directly on openrc. There's no virtual for init though. |
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | What "requires" openrc? |
| Quote: | X3 ~ # equery d openrc
* These packages depend on openrc:
net-misc/netifrc-0.2.2 (>=sys-apps/openrc-0.12)
sys-power/apcupsd-3.14.13 (sys-apps/openrc)
virtual/service-manager-0 (!prefix ? sys-apps/openrc) |
Maybe more. I've frozen openrc at 0.17. Lm_sensors recently claimed to require 0.22 plus perl when it had never before required openrc at all. I copied the ebuild to /usr/local/portage and removed the requirement. It's working fine. |
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mv
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Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6749
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Lm_sensors recently claimed to require 0.22 |
No, it does not: It only blocks versions lower than 0.21.7 because it expects /usr/lib/modules.load.d to be honoured which older versions do. It can work by accident on your system if you do not have compiled these as modules or if you loaded the modules manually, but users which relied on the automatic loading of modules would have a broken package otherwise. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I had long locked openrc at 0.13.11, and haven't had a problem with anything.
I did lock out the latest lm sensors 3.4.0_p20160725, as I was too busy at the time to copy and remove the openrc dependency.
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Naib
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:04 am Post subject: |
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https://streaming.media.ccc.de/systemd-conf-2016/
https://conf.systemd.io/
| Quote: | Why?
Since its start in early 2010 the systemd project — the system and service manager — has become a core component of modern Linux systems. systemd is the default init system on every major distribution and has been pushed forward by more than 600 contributors.
Last year the first gathering dedicated to the project was held in the heart of Berlin's Kreuzberg district. Approximately 100 community members gathered for 2 days of talks and a 1-day hackfest. The feedback was clear that we should do it again, and preferably keep it in Berlin.
systemd.conf 2016 is looking to build on the success of last year's event while keeping the same friendly, relaxed atmosphere. To that end, we'll be in the same venue and are accommodating a slightly larger crowd. We've also added an additional workshop day to the schedule for some hands-on sessions.
The systemd.conf team looks forward to seeing you there.
Tickets are now available and presentation and workshop proposals are being accepted. |
[/quote]
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Zucca
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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First was /etc/inittab. That I can understand.
Now systemd wants to get rid of /etc/hosts.
And I've heard that systemd wants to get rid of /etc/fstab too.
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depontius
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Linux is a kernel, not an OS.
We have been accustomed to a GNU userspace running on a Linux kernel.
The Brave New World being foisted on us is a GNU (and non-GNU?) userspace running on a systemd shim running on a Linux kernel.
Some of us think "Brave" above should be changed to "Stupid". You might also pretend that "systemd shim" above looks mire like "svchost.exe" and get closer to the truth.
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | It can work by accident on your system if you do not have compiled these as modules or if you loaded the modules manually, but users which relied on the automatic loading of modules would have a broken package otherwise. |
Ah! I explicitly load all required modules.
Some questions:
1. Why is the systemd guy in charge of Openrc?
2. What use is the portage system if we have to examine the details of every update for a Trojan Horse?
3. Is it time to give up on Linux and switch to FreeBSD? |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: |
Some questions:
1. Why is the systemd guy in charge of Openrc?
2. What use is the portage system if we have to examine the details of every update for a Trojan Horse?
3. Is it time to give up on Linux and switch to FreeBSD? |
1. good question, too bad there's no good answer to go with it
2. it's becoming less and less useful, this mornings updates had mainly to do with going to EAPI 6,
which IMO is not a reason to bump packages.
3. I'm seriously looking at moving to funtoo, simply because they seem to be the way old gentoo was.
They are serious about not having sysd invade all their packages.
They're not as cutting edge, but on the other hand they don't seem to be on their knees behind the sysd/gnome people making kissing noises.
I find that it's becoming common for the gentoo ebuild devs to be completely clueless.
An example that has been common for a while is to put a "tag" for not pulling in something like introspection
but not blocking out the common elements for introspection in the same ebuild. That's just blatant stupidity.
Anyway................
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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i4dnf
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Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
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Anon-E-moose
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Sadly I've seen sysd and gnome people all do the same things he decries in his screed.
Edit to add: I'm also not surprised considering who david is
"David also co-maintains the systemd/udev layer"
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| David Strauss wrote: | | What makes it a tantrum? It’s a tantrum when you use a minor security issue as justification to rant about everything remotely related to systemd and... |
So yeah. Ayer did go overborad and out of topic a bit, but that doesn't make the bug a minor one.
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1820
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | David Strauss wrote: | | What makes it a tantrum? It’s a tantrum when you use a minor security issue as justification to rant about everything remotely related to systemd and... |
So yeah. Ayer did go overborad and out of topic a bit, but that doesn't make the bug a minor one. |
I almost can't believe his supposed rebuttal to the umask 0 crtitiism...beyond words:
| Quote: | This is a fair point, but it also isn’t a fundamental design element worthy of calls to abandon systemd. As most, it would justify a call to fork systemd and reverse the umask default.
There’s also a complex juggling act between Linux’s process-centric umask model and the threading that systemd uses; it’s not as simple as using a 777 umask and making explicit changes everywhere a file gets opened. But, I don’t think Ayer’s ever implemented an init daemon or another major project with low-level, production Linux code, so he’s probably not familiar with the issues there. |
I truly don't know where to start. "At most" it would justify forking the project?? Jee...that's all? Never mind that second paragraph...FFS. The translation of that amounts to "He has no idea how difficult it is to shoehorn 1000 things into an init system that have no business there in the first place, especially with all this pesky Linux security in the way".
He's basically outlining crap that's only an issue because most everything they're even trying to do is misguided in the first place...that is...duh...the "fundamental design".
Curious to whether others here read that into it...sure sounds that way to me. |
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truekaiser
l33t
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 801
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: |
Some questions:
1. Why is the systemd guy in charge of Openrc?
2. What use is the portage system if we have to examine the details of every update for a Trojan Horse?
3. Is it time to give up on Linux and switch to FreeBSD? |
1. good question, too bad there's no good answer to go with it
2. it's becoming less and less useful, this mornings updates had mainly to do with going to EAPI 6,
which IMO is not a reason to bump packages.
3. I'm seriously looking at moving to funtoo, simply because they seem to be the way old gentoo was.
They are serious about not having sysd invade all their packages.
They're not as cutting edge, but on the other hand they don't seem to be on their knees behind the sysd/gnome people making kissing noises.
I find that it's becoming common for the gentoo ebuild devs to be completely clueless.
An example that has been common for a while is to put a "tag" for not pulling in something like introspection
but not blocking out the common elements for introspection in the same ebuild. That's just blatant stupidity.
Anyway................ |
I will leave gentoo when i am forced to. Don't know where i will go. Bsd is unusable at this point. Last time i tried it's package manager shat it's self. I had to uninstall and reinstall xorg due to an incorrect build option. I could uninstall it, but the system would not let me reinstall it claiming it was 'already' installed. WTF?!?
Right now i am sure if any 'overt' move to sabotage gentoo will be prevented or quickly reverted. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| truekaiser wrote: |
I will leave gentoo when i am forced to. Don't know where i will go. Bsd is unusable at this point. Last time i tried it's package manager shat it's self. I had to uninstall and reinstall xorg due to an incorrect build option. I could uninstall it, but the system would not let me reinstall it claiming it was 'already' installed. WTF?!?
Right now i am sure if any 'overt' move to sabotage gentoo will be prevented or quickly reverted. |
Gentoo is still trending toward diminishing/crippling things in favor of systemd. I believe it would have already caved if not for the vocal efforts from some of us, but its proponents continue grow further entrenched in the gentoo dev hierarchy. The fact that williamh remains on the Council despite his clear lack of technical knowledge/ability and his willingness to lie and manipulate his fellow Council members and devs is testament to that.
Should it become unusable, my first choice of refuge will be funtoo and, failing that, I'm prepared to fork and/or go back to the days of rolling my own systems from scratch. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| It's a shame Exherbo is completely dead. Could've been a good option. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6052
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | It's a shame Exherbo is completely dead. Could've been a good option. |
hahahahahahahaha
You are aware they use sysd
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Naib
Watchman
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | http://systemd-free.org/why.php |
Excellent link! I encourage everyone to read. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Ant P. wrote: | | It's a shame Exherbo is completely dead. Could've been a good option. |
hahahahahahahaha
You are aware they use sysd |
They were already dead by then. The first year or two they had this roadmap item to write their own init (with a fittingly pretentious name) and failed to deliver. |
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