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Naib
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 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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There are quite a few binary distro's not using systemd
Corp won't drop rh contracts to stay away from systemd unless some CEO doesn't want it and most of the time they prob are unaware they have Linux
The company I used to be part of change their RH service contract to Microsoft and converted the machines to suse purely for the contract support and that was financial rather than technical... They got crap support and I hand to splinter with a Ubuntu box for the headed work
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tld
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | khayyam,
Thank you. I was aware of devuan and slackware. The others are new to me. The service contract is a big attraction to Red Hat for corporate users.
Are corporate users really going to drop service contracts to avoid systemd? |
Just saw this linked on soylentnews.org as well:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/antix-16-1-linux-os-is-based-on-debian-gnu-linux-8-7-jessie-without-systemd-511933.shtml
Yea...it's hard to know what's going to happen with big RH customers, but I think some shit will hit the fan when support for RH 6 runs out...certainly for anyone who has a clue. Some unfortunately will just roll over and accept RHEL 7 and systemd for better or worse much as they end up doing with Windows. There have to be a significant number of admins out there that realize systemd has no place within 1000 miles of a server though...hard to know if they'll be heard or not.
Tom |
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depontius
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | However, I see nothing so far that confirms that the specific cited problem is not simple to solve. |
I won't disagree with this statement. I'll just say that the systemd packaging makes this kind of thing much more likely, and they may not all be as easy to resolve as this one. Scenarios like my "choose your problem" have happened before, and I believe they're more likely now.
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Tony0945
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam, Neddyseagoon: The US Postal Service runs Fedora rather than RedHat because it's free. I thought they would have better control with Gentoo but their IT people are idiots. At least they don't run Windows on their servers and, so far, they refuse to move off Win7 for desktops and laptops. Some of the embedded processors even run NT! |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | khayyam, Neddyseagoon: The US Postal Service runs Fedora rather than RedHat because it's free. I thought they would have better control with Gentoo but their IT people are idiots. At least they don't run Windows on their servers and, so far, they refuse to move off Win7 for desktops and laptops. Some of the embedded processors even run NT! |
Tony0945 ... I guess that is just adds further depth to the meaning of "going postal" ;)
@NeddySeagoon ... you should give Alpine a whirl sometime, its grsec/musl/busybox (with post install hooks that switch implementation if, say, you install coreutils, eudev, or what-have-you), I'm fairly sure they have a aarch64 release too. I have it on a old netbook and it boots in seconds (openrc, but there are plans afoot to integrate s6).
best ... khay |
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Hu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Hu wrote: | | However, I see nothing so far that confirms that the specific cited problem is not simple to solve. |
I won't disagree with this statement. I'll just say that the systemd packaging makes this kind of thing much more likely, and they may not all be as easy to resolve as this one. Scenarios like my "choose your problem" have happened before, and I believe they're more likely now. |
Agreed, especially when the package involved is under heavy development, has an upstream that strongly prefers monolithic designs, and generally seems uninterested in maintaining a stable/backports style branch. |
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Amity88
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Neddy is right actually. Technically there are systemd free binary distros but practically, all the mainstream ones are systemd-infested. I don't know how long Pat can hold out, Slackware doesn't have the resources to go out of their way to avoid systemd. Even LFS has a systemd option:
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/download.html
Man! I just got my fingers burnt with SystemD on my Raspi3. I took the easy way out and set it up with arch linux. It works okay but when I had to modify the init process it became pretty tedious. It's just ... making things too complex to do something relatively simple. With the normal init, i could just edit one of the startup scripts and its all done. SysD has a ton of crap that I don't need and I probably cant remove. I have to put an obscure service file to make my rtc chip work on startup.
* They're storing config files under /usr, and I was like wtf man. What's etc for then?
* The binary logs are irritating, I can't just pull out the card and just open a simple text file to diagnose issues.
* I also saw a lot of .socket files in their /usr config directory. It really felt like the big list of windows services, they need to run for some obscure reason and you don't really know why.
SysD is really a gambit. They made it obscure to the point where you'd have to depend on them for support (prob the support sales would increase). Made it difficult for alternatives. You need systemd based Linux to read logs. They completely trashed old conventions (files in /config for eg), this makes it hard to not use this parasite after you've learned to make it work for you. With SysV init, I knew what was happening during startup, I knew to a greater degree what's running on my system and what is listening. This new crap makes me feel like someone else is in control of my system and that I'm not given much visibility into what's going on. Friggin Kool-Aid... man 
On RaspI, now all the main Linux options comes with systemd. I'm gonna either try on FreeBSD on it or Gentoo. It -feels- like Linux is commercialized, it's no longer a hobby project, it's no long liberal. I just experience everything this guy was talking about:
http://www.ocsmag.com/2016/10/19/systemd-progress-through-complexity/
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Amity88,
Maybe this helps your Pi 3?
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Yamakuzure
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | Amity88,
Maybe this helps your Pi 3? |
Oh! Ethernet, USB and WiFI are working now? Really? Together? Wow!
I *think* I might try that one out. It's a pity we won't see vc4 on 64bit for quite a while...
Well, I tried to follow the commits in 4.4.y, 4.8.y and 4.9.y, but didn't do a very thorough job, so I completely missed the 64bit progress.
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Amity88 wrote: | It really felt like the big list of windows services, they need to run for some obscure reason and you don't really know why.
... this makes it hard to not use this parasite after you've learned to make it work for you.. |
And the money quote: | Amity88 wrote: | | They made it obscure to the point where you'd have to depend on them for support |
The second coming of Lindows. Not for people looking for free Unix. For people looking for free Windows. Except RedHat is a for profit institution. After they have embraced and absorbed, they will make a way for you to pay. Annual sysytemd subscription? SystemD as ransomware? |
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depontius
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously I'm here and have been here before, so my opinion can be assumed, and that assumption will likely be correct.
Simple question...
What do you do when something goes wrong with your computer?
Windows - Search around a bit, ask various sources for help. If it's too bad, reinstall and hope for the best.
Linux Newbie with SysV or SystemD - Same as Windows, except ultimate fallback is to go back to Windows.
Linux Experienced with SysV - Hack, dig, search, ask questions until you have it working.
Linux Experienced with SystemD - Your reference shows one anecdotal proof that it's the same as Windows.
At my day job, I'm currently involved in the migration to a new Linux-based data center. It's painful - is there such a thing as a painless migration? But at least our target is RedHat 6.8, so it's a knowable target. Industrial data centers tend to be very conservative, so I doubt SystemD has any real deployment in such situations - yet. I'm really curious to see what happens on the first large-scale SystemD deployment - with veteran sysadmins who are used to reading logfiles, hacking /etc files, etc. I don't think it's going to be pretty.
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depontius
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roki942
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: |
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World writable SUID files... I know that /tmp is usually nosuid, but what about /var for example? I read that timers write into /var.
So PID 1 creating world writeble SUID files. That kind of bug shows how little the devs to testing.
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | World writable SUID files... I know that /tmp is usually nosuid, but what about /var for example? I read that timers write into /var.
So PID 1 creating world writeble SUID files. That kind of bug shows how little the devs to testing. |
Is it PID 1 writing those files? I know there have been lots of complaints about systemd being too monolithic, but is it still THAT monolithic? I guess I've been making a "sanity assumption", that as systemd has glommed functionality into itself, while PID 1 is still bloated, at least some of the new functionality was in the form of separate daemons. I had assumed that the PID 1 bloat wasn't THAT bad. Does anyone know?
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steveL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | I know there have been lots of complaints about systemd being too monolithic, but is it still THAT monolithic? I guess I've been making a "sanity assumption", that as systemd has glommed functionality into itself, while PID 1 is still bloated, at least some of the new functionality was in the form of separate daemons. I had assumed that the PID 1 bloat wasn't THAT bad. Does anyone know? |
At this point, I don't think anyone really cares.. ;-)
If you think systemdbust is "awesome sauce", none of this matters anyhow.
OTOH, if you think it's a monolithic pile of turd, then you don't care that they've got 60 odd binaries in one monolithic package. That's been the case for ages, and doesn't mean you think it's any less of a monolith -- just a clusterfsck of a monolith ;)
This isn't a technical battle for RedHat; it's a marketing one, about market-share, and "developer" mind-share, exactly the same path previously trodden by Microsoft, right down to "embrace, extend and extinguish" alternative technologies, or parts of the infrastructure that prior to subsumption were team-players in the ecosystem. Subverting them to eliminate competition is awfully bad form. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Is it PID 1 writing those files? I know there have been lots of complaints about systemd being too monolithic, but is it still THAT monolithic? |
I'm not entirely sure about that, but reading things from here and there... it seems so. If not, then at least something with root priviliges.
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Naib
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Zucca wrote: | World writable SUID files... I know that /tmp is usually nosuid, but what about /var for example? I read that timers write into /var.
So PID 1 creating world writeble SUID files. That kind of bug shows how little the devs to testing. |
Is it PID 1 writing those files? I know there have been lots of complaints about systemd being too monolithic, but is it still THAT monolithic? I guess I've been making a "sanity assumption", that as systemd has glommed functionality into itself, while PID 1 is still bloated, at least some of the new functionality was in the form of separate daemons. I had assumed that the PID 1 bloat wasn't THAT bad. Does anyone know? |
systemd is still monolithic. Just because it has expanded into daemons doesn't change this... it is a tightly coupled, highly interlinked modular system management suite. A computer is monolithic and modular... take the CPU out and it won't work. Take all the RAM out and it won't work, physically remove BIOS and it won't work. This is the same with SystemD.
Sure you can choose to not use one of its many daemons but can you use any of those daemons without "systemd"
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | Zucca wrote: | World writable SUID files... I know that /tmp is usually nosuid, but what about /var for example? I read that timers write into /var.
So PID 1 creating world writeble SUID files. That kind of bug shows how little the devs to testing. |
Is it PID 1 writing those files? I know there have been lots of complaints about systemd being too monolithic, but is it still THAT monolithic? I guess I've been making a "sanity assumption", that as systemd has glommed functionality into itself, while PID 1 is still bloated, at least some of the new functionality was in the form of separate daemons. I had assumed that the PID 1 bloat wasn't THAT bad. Does anyone know? |
systemd is still monolithic. Just because it has expanded into daemons doesn't change this... it is a tightly coupled, highly interlinked modular system management suite. A computer is monolithic and modular... take the CPU out and it won't work. Take all the RAM out and it won't work, physically remove BIOS and it won't work. This is the same with SystemD.
Sure you can choose to not use one of its many daemons but can you use any of those daemons without "systemd" |
If one of the other daemons crashes it doesn't (I hope) take down the system. If PID1 crashes, it's reboot time. Yes, the system is monolithic, but hopefully not THAT bad. Did Microsoft fund sysemd in order to drive customers back to Windows?
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P.Kosunen
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | If one of the other daemons crashes it doesn't (I hope) take down the system. If PID1 crashes, it's reboot time. Yes, the system is monolithic, but hopefully not THAT bad. |
From what i have read, other daemon crash such as dbus also crashes whole system and reboot is needed. |
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depontius
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| P.Kosunen wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | If one of the other daemons crashes it doesn't (I hope) take down the system. If PID1 crashes, it's reboot time. Yes, the system is monolithic, but hopefully not THAT bad. |
From what i have read, other daemon crash such as dbus also crashes whole system and reboot is needed. |
I wonder how long it will be until we start hearing about Linux "losing its robustness," or "no better than Windows," though no doubt the contribution of systemd to that will not be mentioned. I still believe systemd is Windows people bringing their comfort zone to Linux, so maybe those people won't notice.
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steveL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | I wonder how long it will be until we start hearing about Linux "losing its robustness," or "no better than Windows," though no doubt the contribution of systemd to that will not be mentioned. I still believe systemd is Windows people bringing their comfort zone to Linux, so maybe those people won't notice. |
Also, there has been a trend for "developers" on others distros, including debian, no longer to run their distros on actual hardware, but in a virtual machine from MacOS. The same for GnomeOS developers, who are sometimes also distro developers.
Thus they don't see show-stopping crashes as seriously as their users do (and hence the focus on VM startup times, as they're constantly restarting them due to their buggy software.) It doesn't take down their real machine, and most bugs are usually in "corner-case" scenarios (not very comforting if you're in that corner) which gets waved away as "user configuration". (You configured it, instead of letting upstream decide everything for you: what did you expect?)
As such, we get left with a very lax attitude to all aspects of technical discipline, before we've even got to a stable ABI. They seem to think that emulating internal kernel development is a plan for userland cooperation among disparate projects.
Really it's just the arrogance of youth, imo; allowed to run loose, as it fits with the marketing plan. (We're the greatest, do what we say, and all use RedHat.. Everyone try to keep up with our idea of API design: make it up as we go.)
Older "developers", and anyone who actually set out to be a programmer, rather than anything else, know in their bones that we work for the users.
That's when the distinction is actually useful, which it isn't when it comes to non-technical discussion -- including when it has a bearing on technical direction, as here. |
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Fitzcarraldo
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P.Kosunen
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
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http://thenewstack.io/unix-greatest-inspiration-behind-systemd/
| Quote: | | Nonetheless, he criticized the notion that everything should be a file for the OS: “One of the most well-known concepts that people often cite about Unix is that everything’s a file. I personally think that’s a complete bullshit thing. That’s because everything is not a file. My printer is not a file and if Unix pretends that my printer is a file, that’s complete rubbish because a file is a very different thing.” |
Huh.
| Quote: | | He said that what he truly think is that Unix is the greatest inspiration for systemd, but it is not the only inspiration. “With systemd, we really tried hard to look around at other operating systems and while we focus mostly on Unix-like operating systems, we also spent a lot of time looking at Windows to find some interesting idea there.” |
Hard not to notice. |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| P.Kosunen wrote: | | Lennart Poettering wrote: | | Nonetheless, he criticized the notion that everything should be a file for the OS: “One of the most well-known concepts that people often cite about Unix is that everything’s a file. I personally think that’s a complete bullshit thing. That’s because everything is not a file. My printer is not a file and if Unix pretends that my printer is a file, that’s complete rubbish because a file is a very different thing.” |
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| Code: | | % echo "complete bullshit" > /dev/lp0 |
... because exposing through the same filesystem namespace is so uncomplicated :)
| Linux Torvalds wrote: | | The whole point with "everything is a file" is not that you have some random filename (indeed, sockets and pipes show that "file" and "filename" have nothing to do with each other), but the fact that you can use common tools to operate on different things. |
best ... khay |
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