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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
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 Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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Hi everyone!
do you agree to these statements?
When people try to install Gentoo.....
99% of people that had never used Linux usually fail
90% of Linux end-users usually fail
60% of advanced Linux users usually fail
only 30-50% of people that achieved to install Gentoo are using it
I'm trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share to them what do you think.
have a nice day! |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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amulet_linux,
There are no failed Gentoo installs. Everyone learns from the experience.
There may be varying degrees of success but no failures.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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khayyam
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | I'm trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share to them what do you think. |
amulet_linux ... that isn't an estimation, it's just a number of essencially arbitrary figures.
best ... khay |
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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| khayyam wrote: | | amulet_linux wrote: | | I'm trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share to them what do you think. |
amulet_linux ... that isn't an estimation, it's just a number of essencially arbitrary figures.
best ... khay |
ok, i mean a guess :c
it is fine to try to guess , isn't?
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I post about Gentoo and Linux :3 |
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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | amulet_linux,
There are no failed Gentoo installs. Everyone learns from the experience.
There may be varying degrees of success but no failures. |
I mean there is people that realize that they can not install Gentoo and so they give up
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I post about Gentoo and Linux :3 |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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amulet_linux,
Its not "can not". Its a value judgement related to the effort required for the perceived reward.
That's a little like the difference between ignorant and stupid.
Stupid is forever. Ignorance can be fixed with education given a willingness to learn.
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Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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khayyam
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | ... that isn't an estimation, it's just a number of essencially arbitrary figures. |
ok, i mean a guess :c it is fine to try to guess , isn't? |
amulet_linux ... I'm not going to say "no, you shouldn't", but to what end is that guess put to? The fact that gentoo may be difficult doesn't say anything in particular about it, gentoo is not for everyone, and for those starting out there are various resources they can tap into, documentation, forums, irc, etc. So, if you 'guess' that some number don't end up with gentoo that may be for any number of reasons, gentoo may not be for them, they don't use the resources and their disposal to work through issues, etc, etc.
best ... khay |
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pilla
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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With the state of virtual machines, speed of current processors, and all the documentation and available help, learning how to install Gentoo is not even as hard as people may think.
Other than very exotic setups, it is much more a question of how hard you want it and how much time you can invest on it.
It is not rocket science, it is a set of technological skills that you can learn during the process.
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"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." -- Calvin |
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krinn
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:28 am Post subject: |
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99.99% of users are block by linux not by gentoo.
how many users you see are unable to use portage (or openrc...) ?
most users trying to install gentoo will face using fdisk and partitioning tools, which by itself introduce a big change for most of them: either Windows users that need to figure out C: is map to sda, ubuntu users & the like that don't know what sda could be, or no knowledge of any kind that need to learn from 0.
while the typical guide is speaking of partitioning sda, many users of course have more than one disk or want a different scheme... Leaving them in position where they should stop & learn right there to continue.
if you take a linux from scratch user, chance of success should be 100% because i don't see such user get block by portage or any other gentoo part.
Last edited by krinn on Tue May 17, 2016 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Doctor
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Given that the handbook followed verbatim will result in a bootable system on 95% of hardware, noobs are not the real problem.
The real question would be how many get frustrated when they can't get everything working and abandon their perfectly good Gentoo for something easier to install.
EDIT: The "problem" would be the users with just enough knowledge to know what they want and ambitious enough to try and eat the entire elephant in one sitting.
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First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box. |
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Goverp
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:58 am Post subject: |
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One class of noob is those who believe the only response to a problem is to reinstall. That will lead to disenchantment, excessive coffee, and ultimately substance abuse or Windows  But for those who persist, adversity only makes us stronger. (Other fortune-cookie philosophies are available.)
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steveL
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| pilla wrote: | | It is not rocket science, it is a set of technological skills that you can learn during the process. |
.. which is exactly what rocket science is. ;-) |
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pilla
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | pilla wrote: | | It is not rocket science, it is a set of technological skills that you can learn during the process. |
.. which is exactly what rocket science is. |
One might argue that rocket science includes some calculations that are a little above technological skills, but you are not wrong, I guess.
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1clue
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Not only is every number in this thread an arbitrarily chosen number, but there is no accurate way to get valid statistics.
You would be better off documenting the complexity of the install compared to other installs, with some hypothetical extremes to reach one or more common goals.
The server-side goal might be a LAMP server, or maybe a KVM host. The desktop goal might be one of the common desktop environments with specific add-ons that you might find on a binary distro.
The hypothetical difficulty scale, 1 would be a single-click install (maybe add system name and main user login) of a complete running system with automatic reboot. A 10 would be to manually download the source from the authoritative source and compile it, like LFS.
Measurements should be based on non-arbitrary concepts, like best possible number of clicks/keystrokes/actions to finish the job. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | do you agree to these statements? |
No; and it is clear you do not think they have any sort of validity either, making the whole thing pointless.
| Quote: | | I'm trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share to them what do you think. |
Gentoo is not for Linux beginners. |
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leifbk
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Location: Bærum, Norway
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | 99% of people that had never used Linux usually fail |
Linux is installed by a small fraction of computer users. Gentoo is installed by a small fraction of Linux users. That's already such a tiny part of the population that ordinary statistics can't even separate it from random noise. How many hundred persons in all who have had zero exposure to Linux have tried to install Gentoo? Some of them have almost certainly succeeded. And previous statistics has nothing to do with it; it's rather a matter of determination.
| amulet_linux wrote: | 90% of Linux end-users usually fail
60% of advanced Linux users usually fail |
I wonder from where you have pulled those numbers. If you follow the documentation and start with a simple hardware system like an old laptop, failure is rather unlikely. And you learn everything there is to know about Linux from there.
| amulet_linux wrote: | | only 30-50% of people that achieved to install Gentoo are using it |
I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence, but it is my impression that people who abandons Gentoo do it because it's too time-consuming, not because it's technically challenging. Tinkering with Gentoo requires much of the same mindset as that of persons who love their veteran car and may spend more time under it than in the driver's seat.
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Buffoon
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| How do you define noob? Someone who has no clue what's inside of PC case? I'd say such a person will have hard time installing Gentoo. Someone who knows what IRQ is but never touched Linux? Likely success. |
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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| steveL wrote: |
Gentoo is not for Linux beginners. |
the point is that people usually not realize that I'm able to learn a lot of technical stuff because when I expose Gentoo it seems a easy distro, people may say that my personality does not suit me for Gentoo
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amulet_linux
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen people that thought gentoo was easier because of me
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1clue
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | steveL wrote: |
Gentoo is not for Linux beginners. |
the point is that people usually not realize that I'm able to learn a lot of technical stuff because when I expose Gentoo it seems a easy distro, people may say that my personality does not suit me for Gentoo |
We neither know nor care what you look like or what your scores are in school, or what your skills might be. We assume that since you're here you are somewhat motivated to learn about and possibly install Gentoo.
I remember a 14-year-old who installed it as his first Linux distribution. While he had much help on this forum, he was a real trooper and did his own homework as much as he could. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| steveL wrote: | | Gentoo is not for Linux beginners. |
| amulet_linux wrote: | | the point is that people usually not realize that I'm able to learn a lot of technical stuff because when I expose Gentoo it seems a easy distro, people may say that my personality does not suit me for Gentoo |
This does not even make any sense.
You asked what people think about your "trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share [with] them."
Anyone who thinks Gentoo "seems an easy distro", and is a beginner at Linux, seriously has no clue, and is much better aided by being told to go and try out various binary distros until they find one they're comfortable with.
This whole thread is nonsensical for the reason I laid out previously: you are pulling figures out of thin air and expecting us to condone such as a "sharing of information" when it is nothing of the sort.
Repeating your motivation (or garbling it) does not change that.
Nor does it change the fact that Gentoo is not for Linux newbies; it is designed for people who know what they are about when it comes to Linux, and its main target users are either professional administrators or programmers, who want a maintainable from-source installation, and are prepared to put in time to maintain it.
The trend for trying everything out in a VM simply means newbs still have no clue of the realities of maintaining a working machine, on real hardware.
And no: it does not magically turn Gentoo into an "easy distro".
Gentoo is an easy distro if someone else maintains it for you. And for them it's an easy distro because they want to configure the setup from source. |
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vilehost
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| emerge life |
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roki942
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Posts: 285
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:52 am Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | Hi everyone!
do you agree to these statements?
When people try to install Gentoo.....
99% of people that had never used Linux usually fail
90% of Linux end-users usually fail
60% of advanced Linux users usually fail
only 30-50% of people that achieved to install Gentoo are using it
I'm trying to estimate this because a lot of beginners has no idea about the complexity of Gentoo and it would be nice to share to them what do you think.
have a nice day! |
To me your numbers are the reverse of reality. During my pre-pentium processor days I never succeeded in getting a binary distro to run. When I got a pentium I didn't try any of the ones that had fail and tried Gentoo following the handbook and finally achieved a working system.
Gentoo has never failed to work on any system I've tried it on. Also, my 1st Gentoo install was also the 1st *unix system I'd ever seen or used. |
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mrbassie
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Location: Go past the sign for cope, right at the sign for seethe. If you see the target you've missed it.
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| vilehost wrote: | | emerge life |
That made me chuckle. |
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greyspoke
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Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: Re: percentages of people about failed Installations? |
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| steveL wrote: |
...
Nor does it change the fact that Gentoo is not for Linux newbies; it is designed for people who know what they are about when it comes to Linux, and its main target users are either professional administrators or programmers, who want a maintainable from-source installation, and are prepared to put in time to maintain it.
The trend for trying everything out in a VM simply means newbs still have no clue of the realities of maintaining a working machine, on real hardware.
And no: it does not magically turn Gentoo into an "easy distro".
Gentoo is an easy distro if someone else maintains it for you. And for them it's an easy distro because they want to configure the setup from source. |
Not sure about your list of two groups it is "designed for". There is the "enthusiastic amateur" class (of which I am one*) who use it and enjoy doing so. I did try a couple of binary distributions. I get the impression from the way Gentoo documentation is written that it attempts to engage a somewhat broader audience. Your earlier comment about a willingness to learn is key I think (possibly some basic aptitude at learning this type of stuff is also important).
*My programming is restricted to basic scripting and the only system I administer is a tiny home network. I did write my first programme in about 1973 at school on a punch card type of thing, but I didn't carry on with it until much more recently. |
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