| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| 1clue wrote: | | "Democracy" is, by definition, a system of government in which all the citizens vote either directly or indirectly. Everywhere you look for an official definition, there is that word "vote." |
| khayyam wrote: | | [...] sorry, how does one "vote either directly or indirectly"? |
| 1clue wrote: | | Your PhD should tell you this one. A pure democracy is one where voters vote directly on every issue. An indirect vote is where common voters elect a representative and that representative votes on every issue. |
1clue ... a PhD doesn't make one a mind-reader, so it wasn't clear to me you mean "representation", because normally the subject of the act doesn't change.
| khayyam wrote: | | [...] and what is an "official definition", you mean the short hand of the concept provided by a dictionary? |
| 1clue wrote: | | That's what I'm using. |
In which case you are truncating meaning, and that isn't how meaning functions. I could explain why that is the case but it would require a digression into semiotics, and I expect that this too would get flattened.
| khayyam wrote: | | [...] and if so, what does that make of Spinoza's Tractatus Politicus, and many other texts, ancient and modern, in which the subject is not treated in the short hand, these are all completely irrelevant to the subject (subject, that is, not definition) involved? |
| 1clue wrote: | | I haven't read those books and so I'm unwilling and unable to comment. |
I wasn't expecting you had, but that isn't the question, the question is: which has precedence, ALL of the attempts at explicating the subject, or the short form provided by a dictionary? For you the treatment of democracy as a subject comes down to what that short form states, and so its complexity, the entire discourse, is simply irrelevant.
| khayyam wrote: | | You are a perfect example of a know nothing, you have no background in political/social science, other than maybe a civics class when you were 14 or 15yo |
| 1clue wrote: | | Approximately correct even if the ages are wrong. Search engines work for everyone. |
Well, they obviously don't work (at least as a way of circumventing the difficulties of study and acquiring knowledge), this wouldn't be a problem, we are all ignorant to some degree, the difference is how you're using your ignorance to block the path by touting simplisms as the be all, and end all . As I said at the outset, democracy is simply the "rule of the many", how that rule is executed, the mechanisms used to assure/implement it, etc, etc, is open to question, experimentation, etc, etc. If you insist that, no, the "official definition sez voting", then you are in the realm of dogma, with your "official definition" functioning as little more than a tool to reduce, and confine, that question/experimentation to nought. I expect this is why you avoided my question about ancient Greece, because it runs counter to what you insist is the case, and shows that democracy in its nascent stage didn't have this as a necessary condition of its existence.
| khayyam wrote: | | [...], and yet you are going to bring in the heavy guns and make it seem as though such things are simple (if we'd all only stick to the "official definition", haha). I, on the other, have PhD in which this very subject (epistemology in politics, law, etc) is the focus, and I'm a published author with a book, and some 30 or so peer reviewed articles in journals (again, on this very subject) ... but, hey, what do I know. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Good for you. You have the freedom to post your opinion, and I have the freedom to post mine. |
Except that my "opinion" involves an argument, explication, etc ... whereas all you have is "teh official definition".
| khayyam wrote: | | I was going to cover this earlier regarding your "constitutional republic" but I thought I'd save you the embarrassment, however, seeing as you're so shameless, what the hell. So ... the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R) was also a "constitutional republic", and given your admonition to use "official definitions" when discussing such things, its safe to say that the U.S.A and the U.S.S.R have, or had, the exact same political system "by definition". |
| 1clue wrote: | | What embarrassment? The USA has elements of democracy in it, whereas the U.S.S.R. had not nearly so much. Tell me how much voice the common worker had in the government of the U.S.S.R. compared to the voice of an American? |
The embarrassment of being exposed as touting ignorance, and here is a perfect example. You've missed the point entirely, and prefer to use the opportunity as a jumping off point for another shift in the frame reference. I provided that comparison to show that by use of "official definition" (and the avoidance of nuance) you can class two distinct forms as essentially the same.
| 1clue wrote: | | After all, this thread is about democracy and the voice of forum users in the decision making process of Gentoo, right? |
That's is an binary proposition, I would say it's about more than that.
| 1clue wrote: | | "working together for common mutual benefit" isn't a direct quote from the communist manifesto but it could just as well be. In fact, googling that phrase the first page shows me posts from "South St Petersburg Blog" or biological studies of organisms. This is what I'm talking about by definitions of words. You have this image in your head about what democracy means. It's wrong. |
| khayyam wrote: | | I have tried to use the most precise, yet comprehensible, language throughout this discussion, and so when I say that this is what "constitutes" democracy, I mean it in an exact sense ("to establish"), you are now taking this, willy-nilly, as though it's some sort of definition, and try to use it to taint me with the c-word, well, no, you've obviously not read the communist manifesto ... and for the record, I'm an anti-communist and anti-marxist. |
| 1clue wrote: | | I'm not trying to taint you with anything [...] |
Right, so what is that entire paragraph, and the separate post about your "google results", about? ... other than "if is smells like communism ... then it probably is". Why was that necessary to introduce and what purpose did it serve?
| 1clue wrote: | | [...]The language you're using is being used most from within social theories where the common person has little or no say in their political process. [...] |
... and here you go tightening that association with communism/bolshivism/maoism/etc.
| 1clue wrote: | | [...]You're using these words to support a claim that forum users should be able to post in absolutely every conceivable communications thread hosted by Gentoo. I find that to be logically inconsistent. |
No, I'm taking about how gentoo is constituted, and what that means for those involved.
| 1clue wrote: | | Edit: In fact, I find it logically inconsistent that forum users being able to send to a dev mailing list would be considered democracy at all, which clearly is not anything you claimed in the first place. This inconsistency is the only reason I posted on this thread at all. |
Again you're reducing everything to the simplism ... the subject of democracy is a question revolving around inclusion/exclusion.
| 1clue wrote: | | If you really have your PhD in the fields you claim then you surely could roast me on knowledge of these systems. However anyone who can watch TV knows full well that such knowledge does not make you always right, nor does it make everyone with such education follow the same political path, or even reach the same conclusions about events. |
Did you learned that from the Discovery Channel? Seriously, this "just because you have a PhD doesn't make you right" is bellow my current threshold ...
| 1clue wrote: | | And yes, I have read the communist manifesto, [...] |
OK, but that only means that you're not capable of making an analysis of what Marx & Engels are advocating, and how this differs from "working together for common mutual benefit" ... unless you think that when the state takes the means of production under its control that the "mutual" condition can survive.
| 1clue wrote: | | This thread is about "Gentoo leaves democracy" (read the title at the top of your browser window). YOU may not be talking about democracy, but if you're not talking about democracy then you are off topic. |
| khayyam wrote: | | geeeez ... I'm obviously wasting my time here. |
| 1clue wrote: | | IMO we are both wasting our time here. I've talked on this thread far more than I originally intended. I already said I'm throwing in the towel, and here I am posting yet again. |
No, I'm wasting my time because no matter how much effort I put into providing an explanation you're still on your "YOU may not be talking about democracy" schtick.
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
John ... and don't fall for the ahistoria ("inquiry", "knowledge from inquiry") fallacy ;)
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow.
With all that, I see absolutely no relevance to the point of whether or not developers should be allowed to have a communications channel without every random user posting their opinions into it.
On some other day I would love to continue this discussion, but I have work to do.
This thread is way off topic, and I'm partly to blame on that.
It seems to me that every organization will find the need for a specific class of members to communicate together in a channel which cannot be posted to by people not of that class.
It's my opinion that dev-ml is in no way an outrage, and quite possibly more of a necessity to keep the wheels of software development turning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | Wow. With all that, I see absolutely no relevance to the point of whether or not developers should be allowed to have a communications channel without every random user posting their opinions into it. |
1clue ... well, you are the one who came into the discussion with "the United States Government is not a democracy [...] a democracy is mob rule", etc, etc, and continued along that track ... when you didn't simply have your fingers in your ears. No surprise that it takes some explanation to counter that.
| 1clue wrote: | | It seems to me that every organization will find the need for a specific class of members to communicate together in a channel which cannot be posted to by people not of that class. It's my opinion that dev-ml is in no way an outrage, and quite possibly more of a necessity to keep the wheels of software development turning. |
Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"):
| The Gentoo Charter; Pillar 3 wrote: | | Gentoo is open: Every aspect of Gentoo is and remains open. Gentoo does not benefit from hiding any of its development processes (whether it is source code or documentation, decisions or discussions, coordination or management). |
... and before you say, dev-ml is open for reading, then you should consider what "open (or closed)" "coordination or management" amounts to.
Anyhow, all of that (classes, community, rights, duties) has been argued, but it seems that for you doing so has "absolutely no relevance" ... because it doesn't fit the particular narrative of "how it works" that you're feeding.
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo leaves democracy |
|
|
| Yamakuzure wrote: | | you'll miss the flexibility of being your own Distribution Vendor with Gentoo within 5 minutes. Tops. ;-) |
Gentoo has become less and less about choice in the previous years, anyway. Keeping a system you want meanwhile means to maintain a huge overlay to repair all the wrong removals of USE flags especially since the previous years.
Being mainstream gives you less control and perhaps a less secure system, but it has other big advantages, among all of them not losing time with unnecessary work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo leaves democracy |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | Yamakuzure wrote: | you'll miss the flexibility of being your own Distribution Vendor with Gentoo within 5 minutes. Tops.  |
Gentoo has become less and less about choice in the previous years, anyway. Keeping a system you want meanwhile means to maintain a huge overlay to repair all the wrong removals of USE flags especially since the previous years.
Being mainstream gives you less control and perhaps a less secure system, but it has other big advantages, among all of them not losing time with unnecessary work. |
Concur with use flags. Also addition of unneeded use flags and creeping systemd. Freebsd is a way to avoid systemd.
Like you, I now have an extensive overlay called "oldgentoo". I've been asked to put it on github. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: |
...
Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"):
...
best ... khay |
What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it?
I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles.
If there are two people in a room, there is absolutely no possible way that there will be a consensus on every topic they hold to be important. I don't even slightly care what you, or mv, or NeddySeagoon think of this. I have my opinion on it and it is based on experience within many organizations for which there is a class of people called "developers." Or "administrators." Or "accountants." Or "secretaries." Or "housekeeping." Or "sanitation." Or ...........
There is always a channel, official or not, for people of a class to communicate. Such a channel, no matter how you slice it, is "exclusive" which by definition means it's not "inclusive." I fail to understand why you would even care. You can read their posts if you want to, and you can post your opinion in places which are much more appropriate in terms of having an affect on the distro. Decisions made about any particular package or feature of Gentoo are made based on the bug database. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | Decisions made about any particular package or feature of Gentoo are fmade based on the bug database. |
Continue dreaming. Decisions in gentoo meanwhile are made by a small group of people; most developers are afraid to contradict since they are afraid to lose their developer status they spent so much energy to get. (BTW: getting developer status does not mean to proxy-maintain a few small packages but to do quizzies and week-long conversations of IRC.)
Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well.
This is also the reason why I already saw several developers leave gentoo and the reason why I de-facto resigned as proxy developer some months ago.
The current coup of dev-list whitelisting is too much for me.
@NeddySeagoon: From the other comments in the above bug it seems that whitelisting -project is practically already decided, too.
So much to your dream that they might “overlook” some channel which could limit the total power these people obviously strive for. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | Decisions made about any particular package or feature of Gentoo are fmade based on the bug database. |
Continue dreaming. Decisions in gentoo meanwhile are made by a small group of people; most developers are afraid to contradict since they are afraid to lose their developer status they spent so much energy to get. (BTW: getting developer status does not mean to proxy-maintain a few small packages but to do quizzies and week-long conversations of IRC.)
|
In exactly what way will being able to post to dev-ml change any aspect of this? If devs are afraid to comment for fear of being removed, then how exactly do you expect users to have any influence? No devs means no distro. No users means no distro. Distros have died from this sort of behavior before, so if the Gentoo powers that be get too arrogant then we'll all leave and they will have exactly nothing.
You either like the distro or you don't. You either stay or you don't. mv has promised to leave the distro if dev-ml goes developers-only, and I seriously doubt it will happen, because Gentoo is still a distro worth using.
Personally I like what Gentoo is, and choose to ignore the internal politics so long as the distro is useful to me. When it ceases to work for my purposes I'll leave. I have zero interest in joining into the politics of it.
| Quote: |
Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well.
This is also the reason why I already saw several developers leave gentoo and the reason why I de-facto resigned as proxy developer some months ago.
The current coup of dev-list whitelisting is too much for me.
@NeddySeagoon: From the other comments in the above bug it seems that whitelisting -project is practically already decided, too.
So much to your dream that they might “overlook” some channel which could limit the total power these people obviously strive for. |
So this means you're promising to leave Gentoo as well? We'll see how serious you are.
I'd like to claim to not understand people who write "dear John" letters to the forum before leaving, but I used to do it too. These people generally want someone to talk them out of it, so they feel wanted in some way. The truth is nobody will care, and only other forum users who frequently talk to you will even notice.
There are dozens of viable distros out there. If this one sucks so bad, go find another one. If every other one sucks worse than this one, then this one is still the best despite its faults. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If the "ruling class" of Gentoo is truly as arrogant and power-hungry as you guys say, then railing against their power only feeds the "glory" they feel. The best way to get to them is leave, en masse. If they're truly that way then you don't even need to call attention to it, because it will be evident in the product that something is seriously wrong.
If, on the other hand, they're simply trying to run the distro as best they see fit, then likely enough people will continue to use it to keep it viable. Enough people will provide input through existing channels to give those "powers that be" input into what's wanted.
For decades now, distros come to being with a basic statement about their priorities. People who use that distro use it because it has some feature they like. When they no longer like what the distro is, they leave. I've used and left more than a dozen distros that no longer exist. I've used and left more that still exist. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9337
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | Decisions in gentoo meanwhile are made by a small group of people; most developers are afraid to contradict since they are afraid to lose their developer status they spent so much energy to get. |
I have no idea where this notion is coming from, it is certainly not what I have experienced. #gentoo-dev/-proxy-maint are nice places to be for most of the time, with the occasional bickering that you can not avoid as soon as n people are coming together.
| mv wrote: | | Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well. |
Again, I wholeheartedly disagree with his comment... it is so much detached from reality I would not even know where to begin with. I did not respond in that bug, because I feel it would be a waste of my time that I rather use to contribute with ebuilds.
| mv wrote: | | (BTW: getting developer status does not mean to proxy-maintain a few small packages but to do quizzies and week-long conversations of IRC.) |
If you have proven that you produce good quality ebuilds (be it via proxy-maint or a history of PRs) it can be a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon.
| mv wrote: | | Gentoo has become less and less about choice in the previous years, anyway. Keeping a system you want meanwhile means to maintain a huge overlay to repair all the wrong removals of USE flags especially since the previous years. |
Can you give me some examples? I recently cleaned up a lot of useless vlc USE flags making it possible to delete a good chunk of REQUIRED_USE art (4-6 flags for ffmpeg/libav alone), so hopefully I did not make it on that list...
Last edited by asturm on Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:34 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: | | [...]Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"): |
| 1clue wrote: | | What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it? |
1clue ... I've already stated that "the community" is the inclusive subject, and how the "for the community, by the community" of the charter allows for no other distinction. If we were to draw a Venn diagram illustrating this composition then there would be an outer circle, and a smaller inter circle, not two intersecting circles. I should point you to my work where I reduce marxist class analysis to vaporware ... but I'd prefer to maintain my anonymity.
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future.
| 1clue wrote: | | If there are two people in a room, there is absolutely no possible way that there will be a consensus on every topic they hold to be important. I don't even slightly care what you, or mv, or NeddySeagoon think of this. I have my opinion on it and it is based on experience within many organizations for which there is a class of people called "developers." Or "administrators." Or "accountants." Or "secretaries." Or "housekeeping." Or "sanitation." Or ........... |
Indeed, but there is a consensus ... we are organised around certain principles: those expressed in the charter (and to a lesser extent the social contract). The "for the community, by the community" principle is immutable, because of the clause which states that the "cooperative model will remain valid for Gentoo's entire lifespan". So, there are disagreements, that is simply a given, but this is why whatever governance is in place needs to be inclusive, open, robust, etc, etc, because this is the mechanism used to resolve such disagreements, imbalances, etc. I see your distinct roles as mostly arbitrary, both on a political and functional level, there are any number of organisations which operate without them ("mom & pop" businesses for example) and so there is no reason to make them the focus of organisation (no matter what the scale).
| 1clue wrote: | | There is always a channel, official or not, for people of a class to communicate. Such a channel, no matter how you slice it, is "exclusive" which by definition means it's not "inclusive." I fail to understand why you would even care. You can read their posts if you want to, and you can post your opinion in places which are much more appropriate in terms of having an affect on the distro. Decisions made about any particular package or feature of Gentoo are made based on the bug database. |
I "care" because I'm defending the principle laid out in the charter, and I find the exclusion involved to be both unnecessary, and problematic. Also, it's not about me and what I want, I don't read, or post to dev-ml, but I'll defend mv's right to be included in whatever discussion happens there.
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | In exactly what way will being able to post to dev-ml change any aspect of this? |
There are less ways to pressure devs, Formulating their opinion might cost them only the right to commit but will not make their voice silent.
| Quote: | | Distros have died from this sort of behavior before, so if the Gentoo powers that be get too arrogant then we'll all leave |
That's what I hope for. That's why I started this thread.
| Quote: | | and they will have exactly nothing. |
That's wrong. It can mean a fresh start in a different way. Something for which I see less and less alternatives. I am not the right one to start such a thing, but maybe other people are.
| Quote: | | and choose to ignore the internal politics |
What an obvious lie. How many postings have we now seen from you in a thread which is only about exactly this?
| Quote: | | you're promising to leave Gentoo |
From your first comment you made clear how you linger for this moment. Like some other developers as well. To not do you this pleasure is currently the main thing which keeps me here.
| Quote: | | The truth is nobody will care, and only other forum users who frequently talk to you will even notice. |
Yep. Especially if some people build every strawman to distract from the main arguments. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well. |
mv ... comment #16 certainly rings true in my ears ...
| Andrew D Kirch wrote: | | [...]One side is abusing the social conduct guide to silence discourse on social conduct itself, a contentious issue.[...] |
... having been subject to the exact same on a number of occasions.
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | [...]Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"): |
| 1clue wrote: | | What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it? |
1clue ... I've already stated that "the community" is the inclusive subject, and how the "for the community, by the community" of the charter allows for no other distinction. If we were to draw a Venn diagram illustrating this composition then there would be an outer circle, and a smaller inter circle, not two intersecting circles. I should point you to my work where I reduce marxist class analysis to vaporware ... but I'd prefer to maintain my anonymity.
|
Unless all circles are exactly the same size, shape, location and orientation in every dimension of space and time then there are classes. Developer or not developer. Those are classes. Due to the responsibilities and access inherent in the fact of developers doing what developers do, there is a real and practical difference. To argue otherwise is a deliberate lie.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future.
|
I don't give a flying rip about politics. Politicians talk about getting work done, but inevitably someone else does it. I'm talking about getting work done. Are there developers? Are there non-developers? Are there differences in the level of access and responsibilities between developers and non-developers? Yes or no?
So if we were discussing finances, and who we have to pay how much and from what account, do you insist that everyone should be able to post to that channel? What about which janitor is working on Wednesday next week, or whether they can switch with somebody else due to a doctor's appointment?
There are aspects of running any organization where people outside of a certain class shouldn't even care about. "I'm going to merge branch 2351 in 10 minutes. Any objections?"
"The tests are failing on the build box after branch 2351. Bob, get your $#!+ together and fix it."
Surely nobody not in the chain of developers and QA should have access to write to this sort of channel.
You seem to be arguing everything with respect to politics. What about the practical needs of getting the job done? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | In exactly what way will being able to post to dev-ml change any aspect of this? |
There are less ways to pressure devs, Formulating their opinion might cost them only the right to commit but will not make their voice silent.
|
Wait. According to khayyam, devs are afraid of speaking out because the powers that be may revoke their dev status. So are you pressuring devs to take risks and lose their dev status, or are you trying to change how the distro works? Right now it seems as though you're simply trying to establish anarchy and be disruptive.
Edit: You've established that you're not a dev, don't want to be a dev and that you want to be able to post to dev-ml. But do you want to post for yourself, or do you want the devs you hope to get ejected to have the right to post? Or both?
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Distros have died from this sort of behavior before, so if the Gentoo powers that be get too arrogant then we'll all leave |
That's what I hope for. That's why I started this thread.
|
But the truth is, people leave because the distro no longer meets their needs, they don't leave because of some obnoxious forum user. So this is all pointless. You've successfully managed to be obnoxious but you certainly haven't changed my mind in any way whatsoever.
Edit: Except to maybe stop posting to this thread. I see no reason to continue responding to a user who wants Gentoo to die.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | and they will have exactly nothing. |
That's wrong. It can mean a fresh start in a different way. Something for which I see less and less alternatives. I am not the right one to start such a thing, but maybe other people are.
|
Everything Gentoo, or at least almost everything, is available on git right? People who want to can copy it and make their own distro. You could make it by your rules, so that you and you alone can make decisions and all your s#e#r#f#s# users can take it or leave it.
Instead, you take the distro you like most and deliberately try to disrupt it and cause people to go elsewhere. Real smooth, mv.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | and choose to ignore the internal politics |
What an obvious lie. How many postings have we now seen from you in a thread which is only about exactly this?
|
While I have been talking about politics, my entire point is that being able to post to a mailing list for developers should not be even remotely a political decision. It's a practical one. You, being a political animal, insist that every word uttered must be a political word.
Frankly I think that's why we're arguing.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | you're promising to leave Gentoo |
From your first comment you made clear how you linger for this moment. Like some other developers as well. To not do you this pleasure is currently the main thing which keeps me here.
|
Some other developers as well? Yes, I'm a software developer but not in the Gentoo community. That makes me a user. I claim no status but the most common one.
I'm still here because you guys are still talking BS.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | The truth is nobody will care, and only other forum users who frequently talk to you will even notice. |
Yep. Especially if some people build every strawman to distract from the main arguments. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: | | [...]Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"): |
| 1clue wrote: | | What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it? |
| khayyam wrote: | | 1clue ... I've already stated that "the community" is the inclusive subject, and how the "for the community, by the community" of the charter allows for no other distinction. If we were to draw a Venn diagram illustrating this composition then there would be an outer circle, and a smaller inter circle, not two intersecting circles. I should point you to my work where I reduce marxist class analysis to vaporware ... but I'd prefer to maintain my anonymity. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Unless all circles are exactly the same size, shape, location and orientation in every dimension of space and time then there are classes. Developer or not developer. Those are classes. Due to the responsibilities and access inherent in the fact of developers doing what developers do, there is a real and practical difference. To argue otherwise is a deliberate lie. |
1clue ... you are completely out of your depth. It is equally as logical to say that there are as many classes of things as there are objects to classify. When we make such a distinction it is because such classification aids us in understanding the particular problem we are attempting to address, not so that they include every contingent, or arbitrary, idea about the world. They are beings of reason, not certainties, and as such reflect our cognitive, and epistemic, bias. Some classes of things, such as say, phlogiston are abandoned because they prove less useful than supposed, or fail the experimentation necessary to prove worthy of a working hypothesis. Some ideas, such as the proletariat, are just unworkable as concepts, given this (so called) class could be sliced and diced, or further sub-divided, in infinite (arbitrary) ways (which is why marxists subsequently had so many conflicting conceptions about this classes composition, and agency),
Oh, and BTW, congratulations, you're an honorary marxist.
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
| khayyam wrote: | | There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future. |
| 1clue wrote: | | I don't give a flying rip about politics. Politicians talk about getting work done, but inevitably someone else does it. I'm talking about getting work done. Are there developers? Are there non-developers? Are there differences in the level of access and responsibilities between developers and non-developers? Yes or no? |
You don't seem to give a "flying rip" about reason either, the entire context for your question is nonsense given what it is you're supposedly responding to.
| 1clue wrote: | | So if we were discussing finances, and who we have to pay how much and from what account, do you insist that everyone should be able to post to that channel? What about which janitor is working on Wednesday next week, or whether they can switch with somebody else due to a doctor's appointment? |
Yadda-yadda ... I've already covered this, go back to what was written re the division of labour, community composition, etc ... and how this doesn't imply, or necessitate, the sort of classification you deem is objective fact.
| 1clue wrote: | | There are aspects of running any organization where people outside of a certain class shouldn't even care about. "I'm going to merge branch 2351 in 10 minutes. Any objections?" "The tests are failing on the build box after branch 2351. Bob, get your $#!+ together and fix it." Surely nobody not in the chain of developers and QA should have access to write to this sort of channel. |
Well, who are you to say that they shouldn't care, or that they are going to interfere in some way with such activities?
| 1clue wrote: | | You seem to be arguing everything with respect to politics. What about the practical needs of getting the job done? |
Do you think a mathematician cares about how mathematical formulas are used .. they care primarily about them being correct ... or not. Your demarcation between theory and practice is more a question of throwing the obvious at the unanswerable in the hope that it'll raise your argument above its actual standing, but that doesn't improve it in any way.
| 1clue wrote: | | Wait. According to khayyam, devs are afraid of speaking out because the powers that be may revoke their dev status. So are you pressuring devs to take risks and lose their dev status, or are you trying to change how the distro works? Right now it seems as though you're simply trying to establish anarchy and be disruptive. |
Nope, I've never made that claim, you seem to be confusing me with some other class of khayyam.
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | [...]Well, some ... mv, Neddy, and myself ... disagree and question the very "need" you think exists. It also runs counter to the spirit of the charter (as does your imposition of "classes"): |
| 1clue wrote: | | What is this objection to the word "classes" anyway? So are there to be no distinction between the people who develop software and those who use it? |
| khayyam wrote: | | 1clue ... I've already stated that "the community" is the inclusive subject, and how the "for the community, by the community" of the charter allows for no other distinction. If we were to draw a Venn diagram illustrating this composition then there would be an outer circle, and a smaller inter circle, not two intersecting circles. I should point you to my work where I reduce marxist class analysis to vaporware ... but I'd prefer to maintain my anonymity. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Unless all circles are exactly the same size, shape, location and orientation in every dimension of space and time then there are classes. Developer or not developer. Those are classes. Due to the responsibilities and access inherent in the fact of developers doing what developers do, there is a real and practical difference. To argue otherwise is a deliberate lie. |
1clue ... you are completely out of your depth. It is equally as logical to say that there are as many classes of things as there are objects to classify. When we make such a distinction it is because such classification aids us in understanding the particular problem we are attempting to address, not so that they include every contingent, or arbitrary, idea about the world. They are beings of reason, not certainties, and as such reflect our cognitive, and epistemic, bias. Some classes of things, such as say, phlogiston are abandoned because they prove less useful than supposed, or fail the experimentation necessary to prove worthy of a working hypothesis. Some ideas, such as the proletariat, are just unworkable as concepts, given this (so called) class could be sliced and diced, or further sub-divided, in infinite (arbitrary) ways (which is why marxists subsequently had so many conflicting conceptions about this classes composition, and agency),
|
So why do you believe that "developers" is not its own class? We clearly have that distinction within Gentoo and within software in general. It's not simply an abstract concept. It's a functional role people fill and without them there would be no Gentoo, only politics. They need certain qualifications in order to fill that role and not everyone has those qualifications. You seem to claim that that distinction is irrelevant. "Community member" is the only classification which is relevant? Really? Then why are there forum administrators, developers, and whatever other roles the distro has?
| Quote: |
Oh, and BTW, congratulations, you're an honorary marxist.
|
So it's name-calling now? Classy.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
| khayyam wrote: | | There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future. |
| 1clue wrote: | | I don't give a flying rip about politics. Politicians talk about getting work done, but inevitably someone else does it. I'm talking about getting work done. Are there developers? Are there non-developers? Are there differences in the level of access and responsibilities between developers and non-developers? Yes or no? |
You don't seem to give a "flying rip" about reason either, the entire context for your question is nonsense given what it is you're supposedly responding to.
|
Yes or no? You didn't answer the question, only avoided it. Are there developers? Do they have access to ANYTHING AT ALL that regular forum users don't have access to?
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | So if we were discussing finances, and who we have to pay how much and from what account, do you insist that everyone should be able to post to that channel? What about which janitor is working on Wednesday next week, or whether they can switch with somebody else due to a doctor's appointment? |
Yadda-yadda ... I've already covered this, go back to what was written re the division of labour, community composition, etc ... and how this doesn't imply, or necessitate, the sort of classification you deem is objective fact.
|
You assume I'm talking about some sort of political classification. I'm not. Is there a collection of humans in the "gentoo comunity" who develop software and have additional access because of it? Yes or no?
Like every other politician you cannot comprehend any truth outside of politics.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | There are aspects of running any organization where people outside of a certain class shouldn't even care about. "I'm going to merge branch 2351 in 10 minutes. Any objections?" "The tests are failing on the build box after branch 2351. Bob, get your $#!+ together and fix it." Surely nobody not in the chain of developers and QA should have access to write to this sort of channel. |
Well, who are you to say that they shouldn't care, or that they are going to interfere in some way with such activities?
| 1clue wrote: | | You seem to be arguing everything with respect to politics. What about the practical needs of getting the job done? |
Do you think a mathematician cares about how mathematical formulas are used .. they care primarily about them being correct ... or not. Your demarcation between theory and practice is more a question of throwing the obvious at the unanswerable in the hope that it'll raise your argument above its actual standing, but that doesn't improve it in any way.
|
The "obvious" is what you seem to deny at every chance. You brought up Venn diagrams, they're used to illustrate the mathematics of sets and collections and membership in groups. So does math work differently for politicians than it does for actual real-world humans?
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | Wait. According to khayyam, devs are afraid of speaking out because the powers that be may revoke their dev status. So are you pressuring devs to take risks and lose their dev status, or are you trying to change how the distro works? Right now it seems as though you're simply trying to establish anarchy and be disruptive. |
Nope, I've never made that claim, you seem to be confusing me with some other class of khayyam.
best ... khay |
You're right, it was mv who said that. My apologies for the incorrect attribution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20589
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | Daniel Robins' comment #27 in his blacklisting bug describes the current atmosphere in gentoo quite well. |
"Thanks" for the link. I hadn't seen the video. 12 years later...
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | But the truth is, people leave because the distro no longer meets their needs |
The truth is that quite some developers already left because of the unbearable situation. And more will follow; there is not the slightest doubt about it.
| Quote: | | is available on git right? People who want to can copy it and make their own |
That's word by word the argument of systemd fanboys which intentionally ignores the fact that there is a lot more to keep something running than to have past source code.
But of course this is a dream: If a “critical mass” comes together something new might indeed arise. I might gladly join this mass, but I don't feel that I am the right seed to initiate it.
| Quote: | | Some other developers as well? |
Didn't you read the citations I pointed to? Denying that closing of the mailing lists is anything else than political power policy comes either from complete unknowledge about gentoo's recent history or an extreme naivity or is an intentional attempt to desinform.
| Quote: | | a user who wants Gentoo to die. |
In the first place I want Gentoo's current situation to die. I feel that this is only possible by the death of Gentoo, because I feel that Daniel Robbins is also right in comment 17 of the mentioned bug: "They already have a system in place to protect themselves. You will not be able to reform the kingdom from the inside. [...] the sooner you realize this, the sooner you will start ...".
Sure, my leaving and this thread here can only be a tiny signal at best.
But it is better than to do nothing and thus to tacitly help cementing the current wrong situation: I know from (real-life) history that this is the worst thing one can do.
Of course, there is a dream that others feel the same and an even bigger dream that eventually perhaps some phoenix might arise from the ashes. But giving birth to such a phoenix would need the mentioned critical mass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | But the truth is, people leave because the distro no longer meets their needs |
The truth is that quite some developers already left because of the unbearable situation. And more will follow; there is not the slightest doubt about it.
| Quote: | | is available on git right? People who want to can copy it and make their own |
That's word by word the argument of systemd fanboys which intentionally ignores the fact that there is a lot more to keep something running than to have past source code.
But of course this is a dream: If a “critical mass” comes together something new might indeed arise. I might gladly join this mass, but I don't feel that I am the right seed to initiate it.
|
I'm not a systemd fanboy. I used those words in hopes that you'd take the hint and start your own distro.
You're right, you're probably a bad seed.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Some other developers as well? |
Didn't you read the citations I pointed to? Denying that closing of the mailing lists is anything else than political power policy comes either from complete unknowledge about gentoo's recent history or an extreme naivity or is an intentional attempt to desinform.
|
The word is 'misinform." No I didn't read the flame wars that inevitably show up on any forum. I have no interest in Gentoo's internal politics, nor that of any other distro. I use the distro, I like what it is. If it gets to be too much of a pain I'll leave. I use several distros on various hardware. I install what seems to be best for the intended application. When weighing merits of each distro the politics of the distro have absolutely zero weight.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | a user who wants Gentoo to die. |
In the first place I want Gentoo's current situation to die. I feel that this is only possible by the death of Gentoo, because I feel that Daniel Robbins is also right in comment 17 of the mentioned bug: "They already have a system in place to protect themselves. You will not be able to reform the kingdom from the inside. [...] the sooner you realize this, the sooner you will start ...".
Sure, my leaving and this thread here can only be a tiny signal at best.
But it is better than to do nothing and thus to tacitly help cementing the current wrong situation: I know from (real-life) history that this is the worst thing one can do.
Of course, there is a dream that others feel the same and an even bigger dream that eventually perhaps some phoenix might arise from the ashes. But giving birth to such a phoenix would need the mentioned critical mass. |
You're talking like the people who drank the kool-aid at Jonestown. I'm done here. Talking with people who talk like you do is not healthy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | So why do you believe that "developers" is not its own class? We clearly have that distinction within Gentoo and within software in general. It's not simply an abstract concept. It's a functional role people fill and without them there would be no Gentoo, only politics. They need certain qualifications in order to fill that role and not everyone has those qualifications. You seem to claim that that distinction is irrelevant. "Community member" is the only classification which is relevant? Really? Then why are there forum administrators, developers, and whatever other roles the distro has? |
1clue ... if you read carefully you'll see that this question has been answered in numerous ways, and in clear and unambiguous language.
| khayyam wrote: | | Oh, and BTW, congratulations, you're an honorary marxist. |
| 1clue wrote: | | So it's name-calling now? Classy. |
No, "honorary" because of your instance in seeing class in a similar manner to the way that marxist conceive it.
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
| khayyam wrote: | | There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future. |
| 1clue wrote: | | I don't give a flying rip about politics. Politicians talk about getting work done, but inevitably someone else does it. I'm talking about getting work done. Are there developers? Are there non-developers? Are there differences in the level of access and responsibilities between developers and non-developers? Yes or no? |
| khayyam wrote: | | You don't seem to give a "flying rip" about reason either, the entire context for your question is nonsense given what it is you're supposedly responding to. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Yes or no? You didn't answer the question, only avoided it. Are there developers? Do they have access to ANYTHING AT ALL that regular forum users don't have access to? |
As I said, read what it is your responding to ... had you done so you would have read the following: you'd asked "there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles", to which I replied, "[t]here is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes [...]". As for the following, leading, question, you want me to say, yes, they have commit rights, or something ... and then have to bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something.
| 1clue wrote: | | So if we were discussing finances, and who we have to pay how much and from what account, do you insist that everyone should be able to post to that channel? What about which janitor is working on Wednesday next week, or whether they can switch with somebody else due to a doctor's appointment? |
| khayyam wrote: | | Yadda-yadda ... I've already covered this, go back to what was written re the division of labour, community composition, etc ... and how this doesn't imply, or necessitate, the sort of classification you deem is objective fact. |
| 1clue wrote: | | You assume I'm talking about some sort of political classification. I'm not. Is there a collection of humans in the "gentoo comunity" who develop software and have additional access because of it? Yes or no? |
No, and to prove it, I deny categorically that there is such thing as developers, and software ... and then bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something.
| 1clue wrote: | | Like every other politician you cannot comprehend any truth outside of politics. |
... and like a true know nothing you wouldn't know a truth if knocked you upside the head ... so it's name-calling now? Classy.
| 1clue wrote: | | You seem to be arguing everything with respect to politics. What about the practical needs of getting the job done? |
| khayyam wrote: | | Do you think a mathematician cares about how mathematical formulas are used .. they care primarily about them being correct ... or not. Your demarcation between theory and practice is more a question of throwing the obvious at the unanswerable in the hope that it'll raise your argument above its actual standing, but that doesn't improve it in any way. |
| 1clue wrote: | | The "obvious" is what you seem to deny at every chance. You brought up Venn diagrams, they're used to illustrate the mathematics of sets and collections and membership in groups. So does math work differently for politicians than it does for actual real-world humans? |
So I brought up Venn diagrams (I even provided an example of the grouping of the set), how does this reflect on the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to?
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khayyam wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | So why do you believe that "developers" is not its own class? We clearly have that distinction within Gentoo and within software in general. It's not simply an abstract concept. It's a functional role people fill and without them there would be no Gentoo, only politics. They need certain qualifications in order to fill that role and not everyone has those qualifications. You seem to claim that that distinction is irrelevant. "Community member" is the only classification which is relevant? Really? Then why are there forum administrators, developers, and whatever other roles the distro has? |
1clue ... if you read carefully you'll see that this question has been answered in numerous ways, and in clear and unambiguous language.
| khayyam wrote: | | Oh, and BTW, congratulations, you're an honorary marxist. |
| 1clue wrote: | | So it's name-calling now? Classy. |
No, "honorary" because of your instance in seeing class in a similar manner to the way that marxist conceive it.
|
I see classes as a mathematician would see them.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | I may or may not be wrong about aspects of socialism or democracy, but there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles. |
| khayyam wrote: | | There is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes, as both are subsumed under the term "community", and really the later should be considered (at least politically) as a nothing more than a subset of the former, or those "trusted" (by the community) with some subset of the labour involved. As I argue above, there is a lot that needs to happen for the community to remain viable, and "development" is simply one part of it ... everyone's "involvement" (the duty imposed by "inclusion") is important to the functioning of the community ... remember those making their first tentative steps with gentoo are potentially the developers of the future. |
| 1clue wrote: | | I don't give a flying rip about politics. Politicians talk about getting work done, but inevitably someone else does it. I'm talking about getting work done. Are there developers? Are there non-developers? Are there differences in the level of access and responsibilities between developers and non-developers? Yes or no? |
| khayyam wrote: | | You don't seem to give a "flying rip" about reason either, the entire context for your question is nonsense given what it is you're supposedly responding to. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Yes or no? You didn't answer the question, only avoided it. Are there developers? Do they have access to ANYTHING AT ALL that regular forum users don't have access to? |
As I said, read what it is your responding to ... had you done so you would have read the following: you'd asked "there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles", to which I replied, "[t]here is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes [...]". As for the following, leading, question, you want me to say, yes, they have commit rights, or something ... and then have to bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something.
|
My point is that they very clearly constitute separate classes. Mathematically speaking, you can say "does this person develop software for gentoo.org?" and the answer is a yes or a no. "Is this person a member of the forum?" and the answer is yes or no. That's all I wanted. We have two undisputable facts, this person is a developer, and that person is a user. Clearly the developers have access to things that normal forum user does not.
Was that so incredibly hard?
It is extremely easy to believe that based on these classes of community members there can be a need for one class to have access to something other community members do not have access to. Whether dev-ml actually constitutes one of these things is what we're debating. I think it is one of those things, and you and mv do not. Truth be told after we've been flaming about it so long I could not care less if access is granted or denied to forum members. I will likely never have a reason to read it, much less post to it.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | So if we were discussing finances, and who we have to pay how much and from what account, do you insist that everyone should be able to post to that channel? What about which janitor is working on Wednesday next week, or whether they can switch with somebody else due to a doctor's appointment? |
| khayyam wrote: | | Yadda-yadda ... I've already covered this, go back to what was written re the division of labour, community composition, etc ... and how this doesn't imply, or necessitate, the sort of classification you deem is objective fact. |
| 1clue wrote: | | You assume I'm talking about some sort of political classification. I'm not. Is there a collection of humans in the "gentoo comunity" who develop software and have additional access because of it? Yes or no? |
No, and to prove it, I deny categorically that there is such thing as developers, and software ... and then bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something.
| 1clue wrote: | | Like every other politician you cannot comprehend any truth outside of politics. |
... and like a true know nothing you wouldn't know a truth if knocked you upside the head ... so it's name-calling now? Classy.
|
Excuse me, what did you say your degrees are in? I thought you pretty much claimed the "professional politician" class? Calling you what you are is in no way an insult AFAICT.
| Quote: |
| 1clue wrote: | | You seem to be arguing everything with respect to politics. What about the practical needs of getting the job done? |
| khayyam wrote: | | Do you think a mathematician cares about how mathematical formulas are used .. they care primarily about them being correct ... or not. Your demarcation between theory and practice is more a question of throwing the obvious at the unanswerable in the hope that it'll raise your argument above its actual standing, but that doesn't improve it in any way. |
| 1clue wrote: | | The "obvious" is what you seem to deny at every chance. You brought up Venn diagrams, they're used to illustrate the mathematics of sets and collections and membership in groups. So does math work differently for politicians than it does for actual real-world humans? |
So I brought up Venn diagrams (I even provided an example of the grouping of the set), how does this reflect on the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to?
best ... khay |
The disagreement with the implications of a classification does not in any way negate the existence of the classification. Politicians can rewrite the results printed on paper, but they cannot in any way change the actual truth.
The existence of an accurate and relevant classification clarifies the problem. It does not define the answer. The correct answer to any problem can only be achieved through examining the real issues, the real facts, and weighing the possible options. At one point I cared about the answer, but now I no longer want anything to do with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3945
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I want to unfollow this topic now. 
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 1clue wrote: | | I see classes as a mathematician would see them. |
1clue ... you might want to think so, but no, the premises of mathematics are mostly unproblematic, and so the deductive operation doesn't need to worry about ontological status. This is not true for the sciences (which are inductive) the premises are not given. Please re-read what I wrote above WRT "classification", "cognitive, and epistemic, bias", beings of reason", etc, and consider what grounds you have for such classes, how you infer their existence, and then ask yourself: what of infra, comrel, userel, etc, do these similarly warrant a "class", and what epistemic, or practical, purpose do, or would, such classification serve? You've been looking at this as though these distinctions are necessary, if not objective, while I have been looking at it from the position that to explicate what this community is, and how it functions, it must be looked at from the domain in which it operates, and that domain is the socio-political. I'm far more interested (as would be expected given my background) in this "working" than "getting work done", because the former is logically prior to the later, and (more importantly) plays a far more important role ... community is difficult, the development part is (relatively) easy.
| 1clue wrote: | | Yes or no? You didn't answer the question, only avoided it. Are there developers? Do they have access to ANYTHING AT ALL that regular forum users don't have access to? |
| khayyam wrote: | | As I said, read what it is your responding to ... had you done so you would have read the following: you'd asked "there must be some non-politically-charged way to distinguish between people with different roles", to which I replied, "[t]here is, users and developers, however they do not constitute separate classes [...]". As for the following, leading, question, you want me to say, yes, they have commit rights, or something ... and then have to bow my head in shame at not seeing that obvious class identifier ... or something. |
| 1clue wrote: | | My point is that they very clearly constitute separate classes. Mathematically speaking, you can say "does this person develop software for gentoo.org?" and the answer is a yes or a no. "Is this person a member of the forum?" and the answer is yes or no. That's all I wanted. We have two undisputable facts, this person is a developer, and that person is a user. Clearly the developers have access to things that normal forum user does not. |
Again, you're out of your depth ... those are not objective facts, they are assumptions about composition (assumptions which ignore gentoo's political constitution). By saying "mathematically speaking" it doesn't make your premises any more solid, true conclusions only come from true premises, and as I've been at pain to show your premises are not a given.
| 1clue wrote: | | Like every other politician you cannot comprehend any truth outside of politics. |
| khayyam wrote: | | ... and like a true know nothing you wouldn't know a truth if knocked you upside the head ... so it's name-calling now? Classy. |
| 1clue wrote: | | Excuse me, what did you say your degrees are in? I thought you pretty much claimed the "professional politician" class? Calling you what you are is in no way an insult AFAICT. |
I didn't, I'd only said "epistemology in politics, law, etc", but now you ask, philosophy.
| 1clue wrote: | | The "obvious" is what you seem to deny at every chance. You brought up Venn diagrams, they're used to illustrate the mathematics of sets and collections and membership in groups. So does math work differently for politicians than it does for actual real-world humans? |
| khayyam wrote: | | So I brought up Venn diagrams (I even provided an example of the grouping of the set), how does this reflect on the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to? |
| 1clue wrote: | | The disagreement with the implications of a classification does not in any way negate the existence of the classification. Politicians can rewrite the results printed on paper, but they cannot in any way change the actual truth. |
Again, what does any of this have to do with the consideration given by a mathematician to theory and practice? ... or to restate, how does your reply relate to what it's supposedly in reference to?
| 1clue wrote: | | The existence of an accurate and relevant classification clarifies the problem. It does not define the answer. The correct answer to any problem can only be achieved through examining the real issues, the real facts, and weighing the possible options. At one point I cared about the answer, but now I no longer want anything to do with it. |
... and you're telling me this because?
best ... khay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
