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1clue
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | @mv, khayyam: Why are you not developers? |
1clue ... why, is there a reason why I should be? This question speaks volumes: you're only properly a contributing member of the community, and so can access/wield power, if you're a developer.
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You and I, as consumers, can choose to install the operating system of our choice on our computers. There are multiple commercial choices and relatively many FOSS distributions available. You are free to choose any, so long as you abide by the licensing agreements involved.
Like cars or phones or any other product, you can either use it or not use it, and most people choose based on a balance of things they like vs things they dislike. When you buy a phone, you don't automatically have a say in what the next version of that phone will be like. The manufacturer can and likely does listen to the collective consumer voice to see what they want, but at some point the developers and other official members of the organization get together and decide on features, and the next phone is built. Likewise with cars.
You DO have an official route into the ears of the developers: You can submit a bug report.
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| 1clue wrote: | | I was unaware of any distro or even open source project which claims to be a democracy. Some take more input from the user base than others, but they all have a standard by which the decisions are made to achieve. Open Source projects have a limited number of people who are allowed to update the source code in the official repository. There is a review process before outside submissions are accepted. There is a similar process for alterations to a distro. |
I think you've got it wrong on a number of levels, the community (or demos) is constituted by the fact that the project as a whole is dependent on users for all manner of things, mutual exchanges only function properly when all the various parties are getting something from it ... and by "getting something" I also mean getting access to power. Those users can (as I said) "vote with their feet" and look elsewhere ... and the forums, bgo, ml, go silent (as does the list of potential candidates becoming developers). There is a difference between democratic procedure (ie, elections, voting, and such) and agency, the later is what constitutes a democracy, its the agreement to act together for common mutual benefit. How you go about doing this (so, the procedures, regulations, etc) are secondary, and reflect the needs, and difficulties, of sustaining that community.
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And car companies depend on consumers to buy cars, otherwise they're kind of up a creek right? Nobody gives them money, they can't build cars. It sort of ensures that the people who decide what goes into the car listen to the people who buy the car.
If you want to "get power" in a car company, you buy enough stocks to get a vote.
Your "agency" is kind of an inseparable force here isn't it? When people are free to leave, I mean.
Edit: I haven't seen much evidence of "agreement to act together for common mutual benefit" in the USA for the past 2 or 3 decades. Another argument against calling the USA a democracy.
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| 1clue wrote: | | The United States Government is not a democracy. It's a constitutional republic with some democratic principles. A democracy is mob rule, majority wins in every case, and the vote of the most ignorant, least-informed person counts as much as someone who has devoted their life to understand everything involved. Practically speaking the vote of the uninformed majority will almost always turn out to be most detrimental for the uninformed majority in the long run. |
Your founding fathers (along with every political theorist of that period) recognised only three forms of government, monarchy (rule of the one), oligarchy (rule of the few), and democracy (rule of the many). For the later the details, such as who were enfranchised/disenfranchised and under what conditions (property, citizenship, etc), the procedures used to make decisions (ie, the recall of representatives, and how those representatives were chosen) were all a matter to be contested. So, I don't see how, or why, anyone should accept your description (majority rule, etc) as providing a definitive statement as to what democracy is, or isn't.
best ... khay |
If our founding fathers didn't understand what a constitutional republic is then why did they found one? Edit: The founding fathers of the USA understood a lot more about different forms of government than either of us do. They cooked up what is currently the oldest government in the world by many accounts.
You're right, they don't need to accept my definition of a democracy or yours either, and they shouldn't. They could look it up. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-type-of-government-does-the-united-states-have.html is what shows up first in Google for me, but you could do this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+type+of+government+does+the+united+states+have
Now the first link I gave you, but the second one is really interesting as it accepts that the USA is a republic or constitutional republic, but not so much that it's a democracy. But that's a blog post so counts solely as opinion, even if it's an interesting enough opinion that it gets Google top 10 ranking.
The world is not made in your image, nor in mine. The words you use may have special meanings to you, but other people will use the official definition of those words to interpret what you say. |
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1clue
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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The premise of free software is not that developers make something and everyone else tells them how to make it better.
The premise of free software is that people can use the free software, but eventually all those people using it will contribute back with something valuable to the free software community in general at some point. It doesn't have to be software per se, but aiding in some free software project. It could be documentation, or managing a forum catering to free software, or any number of things.
Yes, users are a required part of making a distribution work. But originally people wrote free software because the people writing it wanted to use it for their own purposes. There is no required market. The bigger, more successful open source projects are composed of many people who want that application and many who contribute to it in some way. It's still not market-oriented. It's still not a democracy. It's a bunch of developers who trust each other and, with an eye toward widespread usability, merge their efforts into a common product. But they don't take contributions from just anyone without some sort of code review, and the individual developers likely don't particularly care about features they won't use, except in how those features may conflict with their own use of the product. |
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Tony0945
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know who gets to define terms like "democracy" and "republic" and I'm no classical scholar but look at the roots of the words.
democracy - Greek demos = people Kratos = power
republic - Latin res publica, thing of the people, i.e. "this thing of ours, Italian La cosa nostra"
Sounds like the same thing to me. |
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1clue
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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@Tony0945,
If you read that first link I posted, a republic is a form of government where a representative votes on issues on behalf of the populace. In the case of the USA, the representative is chosen by popular vote, and in the case of the President it's chosen by an electoral college loosely guided by the popular vote.
A constitutional government is one where there is a constitution or similar document which limits how the government can do things.
The USA is a republic because we are not a direct democracy. We the People elect representatives (Congress and Presidents and mayors and governors...) who then pay attention to the day-to-day business of running the chunk of land in question, and its people.
The USA is a constitutional republic because of, you guessed it, the Constitution. Contrary to popular belief it's a document limiting the government, not the people.
Edit: Our pledge of allegiance also mentions what kind of government we have: http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
The idea that every citizen in the USA has the same voting power as any other is also false. With the electoral college, it's possible for a President to be elected with as little as 23% of the popular vote. https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote
As well, gerrymandering can cause some people to have literally no effective voice in their government.
This is off topic, the oddities of the government of the USA is only an illustration that what people seem to think of as a democracy is really something else, and it's something else because a pure democracy would be worse. Democracy is messy, inconsistent and extremely easy to misdirect through misinformation.
My point is that Gentoo has never been a democracy and so can't have "left democracy" as the thread's title suggests. There is no mention of democracy in the "about gentoo" page, and clearly the OP has confused a stated goal to maximize the freedom of choice for the installer to mean that the users might have some sort of control of the distro. Aside of the freedom to leave the distro and go do something else, I'm surprised that anyone might have thought this sort of thing in the first place.
Last edited by 1clue on Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fitzcarraldo
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| "1clue wrote: | | A democracy is mob rule, majority wins in every case, and the vote of the most ignorant, least-informed person counts as much as someone who has devoted their life to understand everything involved. Practically speaking the vote of the uninformed majority will almost always turn out to be most detrimental for the uninformed majority in the long run. |
Reminds me of Brexit. Talk about people shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.
Didn't Benjamin Franklin say "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic"?
Mind you, Churchill recognised democracy is probably the least bad approach: "...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time".
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mv
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | clearly the OP has confused |
The only confusing thing is your attempt to distract from the fact:
Previously, everybody was free to post about developer discussions. This was democratic.
Now, you are forbidden speak unless you are a member of the mafia. This is quite the opposite of democratic.
So gentoo has left democray.
And your reaction to this clear offense against all values is seriously: "Why are you not a member of the mafia?"
Shaking head sadly. |
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | "1clue wrote: | | A democracy is mob rule, majority wins in every case, and the vote of the most ignorant, least-informed person counts as much as someone who has devoted their life to understand everything involved. Practically speaking the vote of the uninformed majority will almost always turn out to be most detrimental for the uninformed majority in the long run. |
Reminds me of Brexit. Talk about people shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.
Didn't Benjamin Franklin say "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic"?
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Yes, he did. And as he was a signer that is evidence that, when the USA came to be, that the people knew what a republic was.
Benjamin Franklin is the only founding father to have signed all four of the key documents establishing the U.S.: the Declaration of Independence (1776), the Treaty of Alliance with France (1778), the Treaty of Paris establishing peace with Great Britain (1783) and the U.S. Constitution (1787). https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/benjamin-franklin
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Mind you, Churchill recognised democracy is probably the least bad approach: "...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time". |
I agree with Churchill. But democracy is not always the best approach to solving a problem, or governing a group of people. A Linux distro, for example, should have democratic features (voting members) but I disagree that the user base should be part of that membership. There should be some sort of proof of competence and commitment before accepting a person as a voting member. |
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1clue
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | Quote: | | clearly the OP has confused |
The only confusing thing is your attempt to distract from the fact:
Previously, everybody was free to post about developer discussions. This was democratic.
Now, you are forbidden speak unless you are a member of the mafia. This is quite the opposite of democratic.
So gentoo has left democray.
And your reaction to this clear offense against all values is seriously: "Why are you not a member of the mafia?"
Shaking head sadly. |
The ability to post on a developer mailing list is not democracy. The developers can and likely do ignore non-developers anyway. For that matter many developers post on the forum, and that means that at least some developers actually watch it.
I for one like Gentoo and the way it's going. I have no desire to be a voting member. I've been a forum member for 12 years now and not once have I pondered this question. If a poll comes by where a developer wants user input I can vote and have done so in the past, and left comments too. You may call me a follower for that, but frankly I've quit a huge number of distros in the past, and likely I'll eventually quit this one too. I have multiple computers that I own, using several distros. I manage quite a few at work, and they represent several distros too. I like Gentoo because it gives me the freedom to install the software I like. As long as they keep doing that I'll likely be a user.
My question about why aren't you a developer seemed a simple way to get the control that you crave so much. If they're closing input to non-developers, then why not find some obscure package that isn't represented and then make a ebuild for it, and petition to become a developer? Easy.
The thing you really don't get is that this was never about letting users control the distro. Gentoo belongs to the people who develop it. If you don't like that, then go invent your own distro.
You seem so incredibly shocked that this "democracy" is gone, that never was. No distro to my knowledge has ever been a democracy in a way that let regular users decide the future direction of the distro. |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | You and I, as consumers, can choose to install the operating system of our choice on our computers. There are multiple commercial choices and relatively many FOSS distributions available. You are free to choose any, so long as you abide by the licensing agreements involved.
Like cars or phones or any other product, you can either use it or not use it, and most people choose based on a balance of things they like vs things they dislike. When you buy a phone, you don't automatically have a say in what the next version of that phone will be like. The manufacturer can and likely does listen to the collective consumer voice to see what they want, but at some point the developers and other official members of the organization get together and decide on features, and the next phone is built. Likewise with cars. |
1clue ... that is a poor analogy, the relation is not unidirectional, I'm not a consumer, I'm a community member. When I answer a forum post, submit a bug report, etc, etc, I'm producing, not consuming, and that production makes me a shareholder (via sweat equity). Also, the goods involved here are not simply an "operating system", or a source tree ... there is the community!
| 1clue wrote: | | You DO have an official route into the ears of the developers: You can submit a bug report. |
That's good to know, but it makes no difference to the points I made.
| khayyam wrote: | | I think you've got it wrong on a number of levels, the community (or demos) is constituted by the fact that the project as a whole is dependent on users for all manner of things, mutual exchanges only function properly when all the various parties are getting something from it ... and by "getting something" I also mean getting access to power. Those users can (as I said) "vote with their feet" and look elsewhere ... and the forums, bgo, ml, go silent (as does the list of potential candidates becoming developers). There is a difference between democratic procedure (ie, elections, voting, and such) and agency, the later is what constitutes a democracy, its the agreement to act together for common mutual benefit. How you go about doing this (so, the procedures, regulations, etc) are secondary, and reflect the needs, and difficulties, of sustaining that community. |
| 1clue wrote: | | And car companies depend on consumers to buy cars, otherwise they're kind of up a creek right? Nobody gives them money, they can't build cars. It sort of ensures that the people who decide what goes into the car listen to the people who buy the car. |
You seem to be veering off in a completely unrelated direction, it's not something that can be squared with "producers and consumers" ... but no, car companies pay lobbyists who then dangle "jobs" over the heads of elected (and soon to be re-elected) representatives, who then give them sweetheart deals, and bailouts ... markets don't have anything to do with it.
| 1clue wrote: | | If you want to "get power" in a car company, you buy enough stocks to get a vote. |
... and to quote William Randolph Hearst, "if you want a free press, then buy your own newspaper".
| 1clue wrote: | | Your "agency" is kind of an inseparable force here isn't it? When people are free to leave, I mean. |
Not sure what you mean, the "agency" mentioned above is the "agreement to act together for common mutual benefit", I could "separate" that agency if I clobbered you on the head and took your goods.
| 1clue wrote: | | The United States Government is not a democracy. It's a constitutional republic with some democratic principles [...] |
| khayyam wrote: | | Your founding fathers (along with every political theorist of that period) recognised only three forms of government, monarchy (rule of the one), oligarchy (rule of the few), and democracy (rule of the many). |
| 1clue wrote: | | If our founding fathers didn't understand what a constitutional republic is then why did they found one? |
It's not a question of them understanding it or not, its what they take it to be. You are acting as though a republic ("res publica ... a "public thing, or affair"), constitutional or otherwise, is distinguishable from a democracy ... and as I provided the definitions I fail to see how you can see it otherwise (ie, one or other of the remaining "forms").
| 1clue wrote: | | The world is not made in your image, nor in mine. The words you use may have special meanings to you, but other people will use the official definition of those words to interpret what you say. |
This is nonsense, yes "special meanings" of the kind that you acquire by studying the subject to a level higher than civics class.
best ... khay |
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | You and I, as consumers, can choose to install the operating system of our choice on our computers. There are multiple commercial choices and relatively many FOSS distributions available. You are free to choose any, so long as you abide by the licensing agreements involved.
Like cars or phones or any other product, you can either use it or not use it, and most people choose based on a balance of things they like vs things they dislike. When you buy a phone, you don't automatically have a say in what the next version of that phone will be like. The manufacturer can and likely does listen to the collective consumer voice to see what they want, but at some point the developers and other official members of the organization get together and decide on features, and the next phone is built. Likewise with cars. |
1clue ... that is a poor analogy, the relation is not unidirectional, I'm not a consumer, I'm a community member. When I answer a forum post, submit a bug report, etc, etc, I'm producing, not consuming, and that production makes me a shareholder (via sweat equity). Also, the goods involved here are not simply an "operating system", or a source tree ... there is the community!
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Cisco has a forum too. When I post there, they should give me voting membership in the company? How ridiculous is that?
You participate in this forum. So do I. People get value from some of the things you post, and you get value from some of the things others post. Your investment is in the community of forum users, not in the software (either upstream or gentoo-specific) nor in any sort of managerial capacity or any other capacity that keeps the wheels of the distro turning.
Forum posts have value, but not all users post information which has value. Claiming some sort of vote for posting to what amounts to a social media combined with volunteer help desk seems a reach. You guys have made this argument before, and I disagreed with it then too.
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| 1clue wrote: | | You DO have an official route into the ears of the developers: You can submit a bug report. |
That's good to know, but it makes no difference to the points I made.
| khayyam wrote: | | I think you've got it wrong on a number of levels, the community (or demos) is constituted by the fact that the project as a whole is dependent on users for all manner of things, mutual exchanges only function properly when all the various parties are getting something from it ... and by "getting something" I also mean getting access to power. Those users can (as I said) "vote with their feet" and look elsewhere ... and the forums, bgo, ml, go silent (as does the list of potential candidates becoming developers). There is a difference between democratic procedure (ie, elections, voting, and such) and agency, the later is what constitutes a democracy, its the agreement to act together for common mutual benefit. How you go about doing this (so, the procedures, regulations, etc) are secondary, and reflect the needs, and difficulties, of sustaining that community. |
| 1clue wrote: | | And car companies depend on consumers to buy cars, otherwise they're kind of up a creek right? Nobody gives them money, they can't build cars. It sort of ensures that the people who decide what goes into the car listen to the people who buy the car. |
You seem to be veering off in a completely unrelated direction, it's not something that can be squared with "producers and consumers" ... but no, car companies pay lobbyists who then dangle "jobs" over the heads of elected (and soon to be re-elected) representatives, who then give them sweetheart deals, and bailouts ... markets don't have anything to do with it.
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But markets DO have something to do with it. The jobs and bailouts, no. Vibrancy, so to speak, yes. No users, no vibrancy/activity, no distro.
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| 1clue wrote: | | If you want to "get power" in a car company, you buy enough stocks to get a vote. |
... and to quote William Randolph Hearst, "if you want a free press, then buy your own newspaper".
| 1clue wrote: | | Your "agency" is kind of an inseparable force here isn't it? When people are free to leave, I mean. |
Not sure what you mean, the "agency" mentioned above is the "agreement to act together for common mutual benefit", I could "separate" that agency if I clobbered you on the head and took your goods.
| 1clue wrote: | | The United States Government is not a democracy. It's a constitutional republic with some democratic principles [...] |
| khayyam wrote: | | Your founding fathers (along with every political theorist of that period) recognised only three forms of government, monarchy (rule of the one), oligarchy (rule of the few), and democracy (rule of the many). |
| 1clue wrote: | | If our founding fathers didn't understand what a constitutional republic is then why did they found one? |
It's not a question of them understanding it or not, its what they take it to be. You are acting as though a republic ("res publica ... a "public thing, or affair"), constitutional or otherwise, is distinguishable from a democracy ... and as I provided the definitions I fail to see how you can see it otherwise (ie, one or other of the remaining "forms").
| 1clue wrote: | | The world is not made in your image, nor in mine. The words you use may have special meanings to you, but other people will use the official definition of those words to interpret what you say. |
This is nonsense, yes "special meanings" of the kind that you acquire by studying the subject to a level higher than civics class.
best ... khay |
"Special meanings" of the kind you get by assuming that the right to post in a mailing list amounts to democracy.
You guys are simply railing at the perceived unfairness that you, hovering on a forum, are not considered as important as someone who develops software which is discussed on the forum.
The software can exist and be used without this forum, but the forum would not be here if there were nothing to talk about. You're saying that people who like to talk about Ford Motor Company and its products are as important as the people who design and build the vehicles, with respect to the existence of the company or the vehicles. I'm not talking about people who actually buy them, only those who talk about them.
This is ridiculous. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | The ability to post on a developer mailing list is not democracy. |
"Free press is not democracy, but democracy is only about the right to vote. So restricting free press is not undemocratic."
Unfortunately, one hears such stupid and dangerous nonsense too often nowadays. Usually, in connection with things which are much more important than gentoo.
| Quote: | | be a voting member [...] control that you crave so much [...] users control the distro |
And again a strawman. This thread is not about voting or controlling but about a complete restriction of speech in gentoo's most important channel.
| Quote: | | You seem so incredibly shocked that this "democracy" is gone, that never was |
that never was? Have I or haven't I been able to post on developer list previously? And you pretend like nothing changed and no serious offense has happened!
Again, you continue to distract from the mere facts by building and destroying strawmen like discussing constitutions. |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10676
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | Previously, everybody was free to post about developer discussions. This was democratic.
Now, you are forbidden speak unless you are a member of the mafia. This is quite the opposite of democratic.
So gentoo has left democray.
And your reaction to this clear offense against all values is seriously: "Why are you not a member of the mafia?"
Shaking head sadly. |
I view it as slightly less sinister. The analogy I think fits better (and the approximate severity I see) is now you're required to get your driver's license before you can post. So, why aren't you willing to get your driver's license?
- John
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | The ability to post on a developer mailing list is not democracy. |
"Free press is not democracy, but democracy is only about the right to vote. So restricting free press is not undemocratic."
Unfortunately, one hears such stupid and dangerous nonsense too often nowadays. Usually, in connection with things which are much more important than gentoo.
| Quote: | | be a voting member [...] control that you crave so much [...] users control the distro |
And again a strawman. This thread is not about voting or controlling but about a complete restriction of speech in gentoo's most important channel.
| Quote: | | You seem so incredibly shocked that this "democracy" is gone, that never was |
that never was? Have I or haven't I been able to post on developer list previously? And you pretend like nothing changed and no serious offense has happened!
Again, you continue to distract from the mere facts by building and destroying strawmen like discussing constitutions. |
Good grief! A Linux distro is not a country. You and I have freedom of speech right here, we're both exercising it. I know for a fact that some people with "voting" rights on this distro are watching this discussion.
A citizen of the USA has the right to sit in and watch Congress do its thing, but they don't have a right to cast a vote unless they hold public office.
A linux distro is software collected by a group of people for a common project. It in no way tells you what you must do. It in no way forces you to do anything against your will. There is no infringement of your personal freedom here.
You, mv, brought up "democracy" which brings government into the discussion. There is no straw man that you yourself did not bring. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | you're required to get your driver's license |
There is only one thing which justifies the state to require a driver's license: An unskilled driver might easily hurt or even kill somebody.
This only justification is completely absent in the mailing list scandal.
This is not at all the motivation about the requirement. The real motivation is the wish to suppress undesired opinions. This is very clear if you read the arguments of the supporters of the whitelist. |
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John R. Graham
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I can see how you can hold that opinion, but I think the question of severity is orthogonal. I still think that having to "acquire a driver's license" is a better analogy than having to "become a member of the mafia".
- John
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I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Last edited by John R. Graham on Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | mv wrote: | Previously, everybody was free to post about developer discussions. This was democratic.
Now, you are forbidden speak unless you are a member of the mafia. This is quite the opposite of democratic.
So gentoo has left democray.
And your reaction to this clear offense against all values is seriously: "Why are you not a member of the mafia?"
Shaking head sadly. |
I view it as slightly less sinister. The analogy I think fits better (and the approximate severity I see) is now you're required to get your driver's license before you can post. So, why aren't you willing to get your driver's license?
- John |
Its much more sinister than that. Any dev can whitelist people ... as long as the people being whitelisted are welcome by those that pushed through the 'control' in the first place.
We don't know who is on the unwelcome list, nor how unwelcome white listed users will de dealt with ... and the devs who while listed them in the first place.
I'll speculate that devs who white list undesirables will be driven out of Gentoo.
Its all rather farcical. Sorry I couldn't find the original.
Of course it only works if the whitelist is actually used by devs.
Disclosure: Its not a move I support. I look forward to being able to "Vote the Bums Out".
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | You and I have freedom of speech right here |
And again you are distracting from the fact that the most important channel of speech for gentoo has just been closed.
| Quote: | | There is no straw man that you yourself did not bring. |
Taking a random word from a post, attaching an unrelated aspect to it and discussing that aspect, is the classical malevolent way to build a strawman.
Denying this behavior is just dishonest.
| Quote: | | It in no way tells you what you must do. |
Now we come to an agreement. Gentoo is no state, so I have the right to not support it anymore. And to encourage others to do the same.
This is finally what this thread is about!
Edit: Fixing typos which made the sentences not understandable. |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | You and I have freedom of speech right here |
And again you are distracting from the fact that the most important channel of speech for gentoo has just been closed.
| Quote: | | There is no straw man that you yourself did not bring. |
Taking a random word from a post, attaching an unrelated aspect to it and discussing that aspect, is the classical malevolent way to build a strawman.
Denying this behavior is just dishonest.
| Quote: | | It in no way tells you what you must do. |
Now we come to an agreement. Gentoo is no state, so I have the right to not support it anymore. And to encourage others to do the same.
This is finally what this thread is about!
Edit: Fixing typos which made the sentences not understandable. |
Really? You're encouraging people to leave Gentoo because you can't post to a dev mailing list anymore?
OK then, farewell and good luck on your quest to a democratic distro.
The "random word" didn't come from a post, it came from the subject of your thread. It's not a malevolent thing, it's a discussion using your own analogy as to why you're wrong.
I'm not denying any behavior at all. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | Really? You're encouraging people to leave Gentoo because you can't post to a dev mailing list anymore? |
Now you insinuate egoistic motives, pretending that my ego is damaged, because I was excluded. Again completely distracting the fact that every non-developer is seriously offended.
| Quote: | | OK then, farewell and good luck |
Since I was still here, you could see that I was not completely decided yet. You make that step easy. |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | | Really? You're encouraging people to leave Gentoo because you can't post to a dev mailing list anymore? |
Now you insinuate egoistic motives, pretending that my ego is damaged, because I was excluded. Again completely distracting the fact that every non-developer is seriously offended.#.
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Ah, the silent majority speaks through you?
I'm not a developer here and I'm not even slightly offended. Who's playing with words again?
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | OK then, farewell and good luck |
Since I was still here, you could see that I was not completely decided yet. You make that step easy. |
I guess I made an assumption, since you're encouraging people to leave Gentoo because YOU can't post to a developer mailing list, I figured you'd be among the mass exodus. After all it would be the only honest thing to do at this point. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | @Tony0945,
If you read that first link I posted, a republic is a form of government where a representative votes on issues on behalf of the populace. In the case of the USA, the representative is chosen by popular vote, and in the case of the President it's chosen by an electoral college loosely guided by the popular vote.
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That's just somebody's definition, not what the words mean. The literal meaning of the words in their original languages is the same. |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hey mv, why don't you make a poll?
* I'm a developer and I'm offended that non-devs can't post to the dev-ml
* I'm a developer and I'm NOT offended that non-devs can't post to the dev-ml
* I'm not a developer and I'm offended that non-devs can't post to the dev-ml
* I'm not a developer and I'm NOT offended that non-devs can't post to the dev-ml
This way, you'll know exactly how many people are offended and how many aren't. Real statistics, as best we can get them on a public forum.
That way you won't be stuffing your foot in your mouth by assuming that every non-dev is offended by not being able to post to a dev mailing list. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| 1clue wrote: | | Ah, the silent majority speaks through you? |
Again a strawman. For me, this undemocratic behavior (and not my personal exclusion) is a motivation to think about not supporting gentoo anymore. And to encourage others to this step. That's what I wrote twice, and I think it can hardly be misunderstood. In particular, it does not mean
| Quote: | | you'd be among the mass exodus. |
Maybe in some future this might be true, but who knows any future.
| Quote: | | After all it would be the only honest thing to do at this point. |
Concerning this topic clearly. Of course, the world is never that simple. For instance, there are also great people at gentoo like NeddySeagoon... |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | 1clue wrote: | @Tony0945,
If you read that first link I posted, a republic is a form of government where a representative votes on issues on behalf of the populace. In the case of the USA, the representative is chosen by popular vote, and in the case of the President it's chosen by an electoral college loosely guided by the popular vote.
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That's just somebody's definition, not what the words mean. The literal meaning of the words in their original languages is the same. |
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/republic?s=t
Are you really going to argue with the dictionary? Do you actually intend for us to take you seriously? |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | [...] that is a poor analogy, the relation is not unidirectional, I'm not a consumer, I'm a community member. When I answer a forum post, submit a bug report, etc, etc, I'm producing, not consuming, and that production makes me a shareholder (via sweat equity). Also, the goods involved here are not simply an "operating system", or a source tree ... there is the community! |
| 1clue wrote: | | Cisco has a forum too. When I post there, they should give me voting membership in the company? How ridiculous is that? |
1clue ... the "ridiculous" aspect is your inability to grasp the difference between gentoo, a "community" project, and Cisco, a commercial entity. You get there by ignoring the specifics of what's being argued, and so are free to hop from "democracy" (of the sort that comes from "acting together for common mutual benefit") to "voting membership in the company" ... truly ridiculous. Does Cisco also have "for the community, by the community" in its charter?
| 1clue wrote: | | You participate in this forum. So do I. People get value from some of the things you post, and you get value from some of the things others post. Your investment is in the community of forum users, not in the software (either upstream or gentoo-specific) nor in any sort of managerial capacity or any other capacity that keeps the wheels of the distro turning. |
I see, can you point me to any official document that delineates these separate domains of investment?
| 1clue wrote: | | Forum posts have value, but not all users post information which has value. Claiming some sort of vote for posting to what amounts to a social media combined with volunteer help desk seems a reach. You guys have made this argument before, and I disagreed with it then too. |
Who's "claiming some sort of vote"? I've been arguing for something much more fundamental, and that is: everyone, regardless of their level of contribution, is included as a member of the community, and that membership of this community comes with both rights and duties ... rights in the form of inclusion ("for the community"), and duties in the form of participation ("by the community"). That's not particularly esoteric, and it shouldn't need arguing ... it's one of our "four pillars" of the document (the charter) that establishes our doing anything, for god sake.
| khayyam wrote: | [...] but no, car companies pay lobbyists who then dangle "jobs" over the heads of elected (and soon to be re-elected) representatives, who then give them sweetheart deals, and bailouts ... markets don't have anything to do with it.
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| 1clue wrote: | | But markets DO have something to do with it. The jobs and bailouts, no. Vibrancy, so to speak, yes. No users, no vibrancy/activity, no distro. |
Only if you are prepared to argue that "monopolies are markets too".
| 1clue wrote: | | You guys are simply railing at the perceived unfairness that you, hovering on a forum, are not considered as important as someone who develops software which is discussed on the forum. |
Nonsense, you would like to typify it as having those qualities, but that is little more than an attempt to reduce the (separate) arguments into one easily digestible smear ...
| 1clue wrote: | | The software can exist and be used without this forum, but the forum would not be here if there were nothing to talk about. You're saying that people who like to talk about Ford Motor Company and its products are as important as the people who design and build the vehicles, with respect to the existence of the company or the vehicles. I'm not talking about people who actually buy them, only those who talk about them. |
You have your self a poor attempt at using a chicken & egg fallacy, but it only works if it was claimed that any of these things (ie, the community) were separable, and so function in the way you describe.
best ... khay |
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